Budball vs. Woodyball.

[Diesel]

2010 Playoff Hawks vs. 2016 Playoff  Hawks.   Who wins??

 

 

 

[BigDog90]

2016 Hawks. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2010 Hawks.

No one to guard JJ or Crawford.  That team also crashed the offensive boards.   2010 Hawks are spitting image of 2016 Raptors.

[Cwell]

2010, more talent

[Diesel]

Let's see:

 

Teague vs. Teague. 

Joe vs. Kyle. 

Marvin vs. Baze. 

Smoove vs. Sapp

Horford vs. Horford. 

The Crawford vs. Isoschroe.

 

So if you say 2010... you're saying that Smoove is better than Sapp.  Joe is better than Kyle.  and Marvin is better than Baze?

That's the talent.   Let me throw in this part because this is where I'm going.

Woody no Goody vs. Bain Bud

Woody:  We're going to run Iso Joe  Back and to the Left!!

Bain Bud:   Theatricality and deception, powerful agents to the uninitiated, but we are initiated aren’t we, Wood?

Woody:  So much Ball movement....  We can't continue to run around like Dogs...

Bain Bud:   Oh yes, I was wondering what would break first, your spirit or your defense? 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2010 Hawks were a team that was 1st in least turnovers committed and 6th in Offensive rebounding.  They were also a top 10 team in defending the 3 ( because of the switching defense ).

2 ISO heavy scoring guards.

Bigs who crashed the offensive boards.

A "big" team at the wings.

Recipe for disaster for 2016 Hawks.

Edited May 21, 2016 by TheNorthCydeRises

[MaceCase]

The 2010 Hawks were the same team that struggled to put away a depleted lower seeded Bucks team in 7 games before a historical beatdown at the hands of the Magic so nuts to all that regular season nonsense.  To think that team has any chance against the current Hawks is sheer lunacy.  Bud's defense is predicated against sagging and stopping ISO scorers and given that both Joe and Jamal couldn't even sniff 40% shooting over that run already that would have been it for the offense, Smoove would have averaged 20 midrange field goals as the rest of the guys would have looked as inept as Boston did standing around guys that couldn't even get into the paint as well as Thomas did.  On defense you would have had nearly every possession with a pick and roll with Sap being switched onto Bibby, Smoove would of course fall asleep guarding the perimeter shooters trying to help down low.  Umm, naw,  These Hawks would be the disaster against the 2010 Hawks.

[Thomas]

20 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

2010 Hawks.

No one to guard JJ or Crawford.  That team also crashed the offensive boards.   2010 Hawks are spitting image of 2016 Raptors.

What 2016 didn't have is a guy like those two who had the confidence to take the game on the line shot. Wether successful or not with seconds ticking down get a decent shot off. Our PGs failed to even get a shot off in a couple of playoff games, our Pgs (the floor generals). I still love Budball and think that doing something about that starting SF position  can help our swing players improve closing out. Thinking both a vet and a draft pick.    

[Diesel]

What both teams have is this:

“We like our core guys,”. “I think we are positioned pretty well. We will learn some more [about the team] going forward in the last month-and-a-half and the playoffs.”

Which GM said that?

 

Scary right?

[benhillboy]

All I know is 2010 Al AKA Bawse would average 22 and 13 versus 2016 Al AKA Alfredo.

That was Jamal's best year by far, now.  I can't see present-day Thabo holding him under 20.

I think this year's Hawks win in a blowout.  Teams that hurt themselves usually can't beat Bud.  Heard of Josh Smith?

The 2011 Drew-ball/Princeton-ish Hawks might make better adjustments  while you playing, though.  I know it was only the first round, but for the matchup to repeat consecutive years with results from both ends of the spectrum is still amazing to me.  

Edited May 22, 2016 by benhillboy

[bumpyphish1]

On 5/20/2016 at 1:29 PM, BigDog90 said:

2016 Hawks. 

I agree.  It's unequivocal that our management/personnel/contracts/etc are all in a much better place than 2010.  That's an interesting matchup b/c 2010 is better 1-6 but falls off after that.  2016 rolls  9-10 deep.

 

On 5/21/2016 at 8:29 PM, Diesel said:

Let's see:

 

Teague vs. Teague. 

Joe vs. Kyle. 

Marvin vs. Baze. 

Smoove vs. Sapp

Horford vs. Horford. 

The Crawford vs. Isoschroe.

 

So if you say 2010... you're saying that Smoove is better than Sapp.  Joe is better than Kyle.  and Marvin is better than Baze?

That's the talent.   Let me throw in this part because this is where I'm going.

Woody no Goody vs. Bain Bud

Woody:  We're going to run Iso Joe  Back and to the Left!!

Bain Bud:   Theatricality and deception, powerful agents to the uninitiated, but we are initiated aren’t we, Wood?

Woody:  So much Ball movement....  We can't continue to run around like Dogs...

Bain Bud:   Oh yes, I was wondering what would break first, your spirit or your defense? 

 

  I'm gonna edit this to reflect more wisdom:

2010 Teague vs. 2016 Teague.  EDGE: 2016 TEAGUE/2016

Joe vs. Kyle.  EDGE: JJ/2010

Marvin vs. Baze.  EDGE:  BAZEMORE/2016

Smoove vs. Sapp  EDGE:  SAPP/2016    

2010 Horford vs. 2016 Horford.  EDGE: EVEN

Jamal Crawford vs. Schröder.  EDGE:  CRAWFORD/2010

Bench.  EDGE - THABO, SCOTT, MUSCALA, HARDAWAY, HUMPHRIES/2016.

Coaching/Intangibles:  EDGE:  Bud/2016

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Ya'll don't even have the lineups right

Bibby - JJ - Marvin - Smith - Horford.  That was your starting lineup.

Jamal was the super sub.  Mo was the shooter and defender off the bench.  Zaza was the reserve big man banger.  Teague played spot minutes at the point and occasionally received DNPs

Like I said, the 2010 Hawks are the equivalent to the 2016 Raptors, a team the Hawks have had major problems with.

JJ was 3rd team All-NBA

Jamal was 6th man of the year

Horford made his 1st All-Star team

Josh was 2nd in Defensive POY voting, and was widely seen as an All-Star snub.

Oh yeah, Josh wasn't a scrub back then.

 

[MaceCase]

Do you remember that team's playoff run?  Seems you're omitting that lil ditty about how Woody was thoroughly out-coached, embarrassed and sent packing from the NBA after a lackluster first round showing against a depleted lower seed that he had more talent than and then a historical beat down at the hands of the Magic of whom only had one more talented player. 

How that team somehow compares against a Raptors team that has managed to win a game in the Conference Finals I do not know but we have actual irrefutable proof of Woody being out coached by Scott Skiles with nothing more than a skeleton crew and then Stan van Gundy taking him behind the woodshed and putting two between his eyes.  LD came back the next year with the same exact crew and did significantly better so we have a lot of strikes against Woody's utilization of his vaunted talent.

 

In a debate of Woodyball vs. Budball we are seeing two cases of "despite his talent" only in one's case it's a huge negative and in the other it's a huge positive.  "Despite his talent" Woody would lose........badly.   "Despite his talent" Bud would win handedly because amongst those All-NBA/All Star/6th Men that he'd be against I don't see a single one of them named LeBron.

[NBASupes]

The 2010 had the best talent of any Hawks team in Atlanta ever. Not including the preseason with Dr. J. 

The problem was the fit was terrible, the system was horrible and we needed a legit #1 option to win with that style of Basketball. I am not one to say Woody was a bad coach because his defensive principles were good but his offense was all on Bibby. Not to mention, he never adjusted and stuck with the same script. He just wasn't a top level coach or close to one. He was a solid coach and better than stated by fans but he's nothing special like Bud is.

I mean we had a Dennis prospect at PG in Teague at the time.

Clearly today's Jeff is better than Bibby then.

Joe then was much better than Korver this year. Jamal was an elite scorer off the bench and our best scorer in Atlanta since Nique and clearly better than Tim.

Marvin was solid that season and was better than Bazemore is now. I forgot who are backup SF was that year but I know Thabo was much better than whoever it was. I remember that bench being very weak outside of Jamal and Zaza.

Millsap was better than Josh then but Josh was good that year and they play the same exact role on defense. Millsap was just a much better offensive player. Clearly Humphries and Scott was better than our rat bunch PFs off the bench at the time.

Horford today was better than Horford then. He is all around better and more intelligent but that one was athletic and more tough. Splitter and Zaza is a draw but Zaza was healthy so the edge to him and Moose is way better than any center we had as a 3rd big that I can remember. 

Overall, this is just a much better team and they are way better coach but talent wise, 2010 was the most talented team in Atlanta Hawks history 

Edited May 23, 2016 by NBASupes

[Guest]

I'm taking the 2016 Hawks.

This Teague would eat Bibby's lunch.  

Joe - advantage

Marvin - still the Duck butt

Josh would be baited into more long 2s. Taking Millsap all day.

Al - wash.

Jamal was as good offensively as he was bad defensively.  He wouldn't be able to stay in front of Dennis.

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Do you remember that team's playoff run?  Seems you're omitting that lil ditty about how Woody was thoroughly out-coached, embarrassed and sent packing from the NBA after a lackluster first round showing against a depleted lower seed that he had more talent than and then a historical beat down at the hands of the Magic of whom only had one more talented player. 

How that team somehow compares against a Raptors team that has managed to win a game in the Conference Finals I do not know but we have actual irrefutable proof of Woody being out coached by Scott Skiles with nothing more than a skeleton crew and then Stan van Gundy taking him behind the woodshed and putting two between his eyes.  LD came back the next year with the same exact crew and did significantly better so we have a lot of strikes against Woody's utilization of his vaunted talent.

 

In a debate of Woodyball vs. Budball we are seeing two cases of "despite his talent" only in one's case it's a huge negative and in the other it's a huge positive.  "Despite his talent" Woody would lose........badly.   "Despite his talent" Bud would win handedly because amongst those All-NBA/All Star/6th Men that he'd be against I don't see a single one of them named LeBron.

 

But can you imagine if Bud had Smoove, Joe, and Jamal??

or

If Woody had Paul, Thabo, and Baze??

If you did a "Face off" then I believe that Woody may outcoach Bud?

 

[Thomas]

Woody was a defensive minded coach that refused to ever break away from his man to man switching theme. Not much for adjusting jack. Just don't remember him out coaching anyone. Even his successor Drew could design good inbounding plays and our offensive movement improved. I will say Bud would have had a big challenge though if Ferry hadn't made the big moves he did. Bud is a good coach and a good developer of players. Believe we will see him improve his late game calls.    

[Diesel]

42 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Woody was a defensive minded coach that refused to ever break away from his man to man switching theme. Not much for adjusting jack. Just don't remember him out coaching anyone. Even his successor Drew could design good inbounding plays and our offensive movement improved. I will say Bud would have had a big challenge though if Ferry hadn't made the big moves he did. Bud is a good coach and a good developer of players. Believe we will see him improve his late game calls.    

Well, that's just it.  Woody's defense was never bad.  He spent so much time focused on defense that he ignored offense unless it affected defense.

If you gave Woody defensive standouts like Thabo, Millsap and Bazemore.. his defense could probably wratched up really tight on whoever they played.

By that same token if you gave Bud:  Josh Smith, Joe, and Jamal.. I wonder would there be enough shots.

 

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Well, that's just it.  Woody's defense was never bad.  He spent so much time focused on defense that he ignored offense unless it affected defense.

If you gave Woody defensive standouts like Thabo, Millsap and Bazemore.. his defense could probably wratched up really tight on whoever they played.

By that same token if you gave Bud:  Josh Smith, Joe, and Jamal.. I wonder would there be enough shots.

 

Yeah, you make a good point about Sap and Thabo in Woody's scheme. Thabo would probably play forty minutes a night for him between SG and SF. Baze would not have gotten the chance to develop the way he has because Woody liked his players really tall (Billy Knight Syndrome) and he would have been behind Joe waving that towel. On your other point about JS, Joe and Jamal playing for Bud it's hard to even imagine that because if it did happen it would have been incredibly short lived. In Budball ball hogs and a greatly talented dumbass just would not last too long. I think it would have been pretty ugly for Bud to try to piece it all together. As awkward as it has seemed for us at times I believe we have been in a better place. 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Well, that's just it.  Woody's defense was never bad.  He spent so much time focused on defense that he ignored offense unless it affected defense.

If you gave Woody defensive standouts like Thabo, Millsap and Bazemore.. his defense could probably wratched up really tight on whoever they played.

By that same token if you gave Bud:  Josh Smith, Joe, and Jamal.. I wonder would there be enough shots.

 

Woody's defense was bad because, as it worked with the actual players he had, it was incredibly predictable and routinely exploited by opponents in the post-season to get the matchup or shot they wanted.  If you don't adjust to that, you aren't doing a good job with your D.  If you don't adjust your D to your personnel, you aren't doing a good job with your D.

Woody's D was fine for the regular season but ineffective and exploited and in the post-season.