Is it the system?

[Diesel]

I'm looking at how these teams are winning games and starting to wonder... is it the system?

I'm oldschool.  I go back to one thing always.  Winning basketball works with Dominance in the paint.   IN Atlanta and in GS and in San Antonio.. a variant of the same system has been put into place.  Namely, Ball movement, 3 point shooting, with no care about offensive rebounding and the Bigs don't matter with a stretch 4.

Well, San Antonio and GS are losing to OKC.  We lost to Cleveland and Toronto just tied Cleveland up.

Is the difference the system?

OKC beat San Antonio namely by putting 2 bigs in the lane and playing iso ball with Durant and Westbrook.

OKC is beating GS with good C play and isoball with Westbrook and Durant.

Toronto just tied up Cleveland with good C play and isoball with Derozen and Lowry.

Is basketball going right back to it's roots again.  Inside.. Out.  with Talent over system being the order of the day?

 

 

[dalamchops]

SA and GSW won championships the past 2 years...

Maybe infusing Aldrige has hurt the Spurs and especially kept Duncan very rusty until game 6. Curry's injury was also quite significant and disrupted their rhythm.

I see TOR vs CLE similar to ATL vs BOS back in 07 (hold home court, crushed on the road)

[benhillboy]

This late in the season, it's mostly about sheer will.  Everything these teams can and will do has been shown on film compiled throughout the season.  

Bud's system is excellent.  It would just be nice to have an actual starting-caliber 2 and 3 who can maintain a dribble to plug into it.  Casey's system is smartly tailored to his players' strengths.  Ujuri has done a fabulous job meshing those strengths spending virtually the same as us.

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by benhillboy

[Guest]

It's the players - Hawks don't have what these other teams currently playing have.

 

[HawkItus]

Not to mention styles make fights and playoff series.  Our team is bereft of quality wings that defend and score.   Our PG's beyond Dennis last game, were not able to defend and punish the other teams guards on offense.   We need better parts.

[Hawkmoor]

Its the system. That system can flourish during the season because teams barely care about playing defense DURING the season.  When the playoffs come, and teams step up their defense and possessions become premium, that system is crap. Like the OP posted, in the playoffs, you have to control the paint.

No matter how many shots that Curry, Thompson etc. make, Green is the key to that team.

 Anybody notice how Lebron doesnt go up for the dunks and layups against Biyombo like he does against teams that play him soft. He is looking to get OUT of the paint against Biyombo. I noticed that several times. He ACTUALLY was dribbling around and AWAY from the basket against Biyombo.

In the playoffs, control the boards, tight defense, block shots and being able to put together a offensive run when needed, wins championships.

Bud has Humphries AND Al AND Sap who CAN play in the paint, but he refuses to emphasize that.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[BigDog90]

It's all about match ups. OKC attacked SA's and GS's weaknesses.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, BigDog90 said:

It's all about match ups. OKC attacked SA's and GS's weaknesses.

It's the players - we have NONE to attack anybody's weakness.

[Diesel]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It's the players - we have NONE to attack anybody's weakness.

Well,  I believe that San Antonio and Golden State are both stacked with talented players.  So is it the players?  I think when you look at the system, you have to be shooting better than they are attacking for the system to work well.  Last year, Korver was 90/50/50.    He was a big reason why we were so good.   This year, without him shooting on fire like that, we're more average.  Even with Horf pulling up his three point shooting.

Therefore...  are we just playing a system that DEMANDS way too much from the shooting to be successful?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Well,  I believe that San Antonio and Golden State are both stacked with talented players.  So is it the players?  I think when you look at the system, you have to be shooting better than they are attacking for the system to work well.  Last year, Korver was 90/50/50.    He was a big reason why we were so good.   This year, without him shooting on fire like that, we're more average.  Even with Horf pulling up his three point shooting.

Therefore...  are we just playing a system that DEMANDS way too much from the shooting to be successful?

San Antonio had too much 'Old Talent' playing primary  roles. It finally caught up to them playi ingevery other day. OKC was faster, younger, more athletic and stronger. The only young talent on SAS was Kawhi when compared to OKC.

OKC is doing to GSW exactly what Charles Barkley said - beat them with their size. Role players like Roberson and Waiters have been hitting their shots.

It's  still about talented players leading the charge.

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

San Antonio had too much 'Old Talent' playing primary  roles. It finally caught up to them playi ingevery other day. OKC was faster, younger, more athletic and stronger. The only young talent on SAS was Kawhi when compared to OKC.

OKC is doing to GSW exactly what Charles Barkley said - beat them with their size. Role players like Roberson and Waiters have been hitting their shots.

It's  still about talented players leading the charge.

I would go with you if that were the whole truth.  However, the primaries are Parker,  Leonard and Aldridge.   They are not that old. Duncan danm near didn't play.  And you still have tough guys like Ginobili, West, and Green.   Maybe.. they were missing Splitter!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I would go with you if that were the whole truth.  However, the primaries are Parker,  Leonard and Aldridge.   They are not that old. Duncan danm near didn't play.  And you still have tough guys like Ginobili, West, and Green.   Maybe.. they were missing Splitter!

Parker looked absolutely DONE.

West and Ginobli's toughness just wasn't enough to conteract their old legs.  Aldridge  is 30 and that's  not old but his footspeed is questionable - OKC just out quicked them.

Green's shot has been broken all season (he had lasik at seasons end (lol).

Duncan - DNP, Old. 

I'm  comparing the relative ages of SAS vs OKC.

[Guest]

OKC OKC OKC OKC!!!!!!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Therefore...  are we just playing a system that DEMANDS way too much from the shooting to be successful?

Yes.  And that's why Bud always emphasizes shooting and making shots during his timeouts.  

That's why Kyle still plays 30+ minutes a game, even though he's not even getting shots off.  

That's why Bud played Muscala over Humphries, despite the Hawks desperately needing toughness around the rim in both playoff series.

Bud's offensive system doesn't value offensive rebounding ... at all.  That does enable the Hawks to limit fastbreak points the other way.  But that also means that when guys are tossing up bricks on offense, we're one and done.

As Hotlanta once said ... ( paraphrasing ) "These guys can't shoot. That's why the system doesn't work".

[Diesel]

14 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Yes.  And that's why Bud always emphasizes shooting and making shots during his timeouts.  

That's why Kyle still plays 30+ minutes a game, even though he's not even getting shots off.  

That's why Bud played Muscala over Humphries, despite the Hawks desperately needing toughness around the rim in both playoff series.

Bud's offensive system doesn't value offensive rebounding ... at all.  That does enable the Hawks to limit fastbreak points the other way.  But that also means that when guys are tossing up bricks on offense, we're one and done.

As Hotlanta once said ... ( paraphrasing ) "These guys can't shoot. That's why the system doesn't work".

I can buy that because I believe it's the truth.   The problem is that Kyle Korver 2014-2015  is a unicorn.   And Now, Kyle won't shoot with a hand in his face and the league knows it.  He's gunshy and is unsure of his shot.  I looked at the stats from the Cleveland series... It's down right depressing.  He played more minutes than anybody except maybe Baze and he put up the least number of points.   Also, he shot in the 40-44% from 2 and 3 but he averaged like 7 ppg.   It's depressing.

My hope is that we're developing a guy in THJr who can do more than just standstill and shoot.   We need shooters and a scorer won't hurt either.

[BigDog90]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

San Antonio had too much 'Old Talent' playing primary  roles. It finally caught up to them playi ingevery other day. OKC was faster, younger, more athletic and stronger. The only young talent on SAS was Kawhi when compared to OKC.

OKC is doing to GSW exactly what Charles Barkley said - beat them with their size. Role players like Roberson and Waiters have been hitting their shots.

It's  still about talented players leading the charge.

 

Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen to ATL. Korver, Thabo, Millsap and Horford aren't getting any younger.

[NBASupes]

These playoffs felt like the playoffs. Last year was soft as hell. Hence our success. This year, hand checking is back and look at the successful teams? OKC, Toronto and Cleveland. We need to get more toughness and clearly, you gotta have a dude who can go 1 on 1 and win that battle. We need those two things 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

These playoffs felt like the playoffs. Last year was soft as hell. Hence our success. This year, hand checking is back and look at the successful teams? OKC, Toronto and Cleveland. We need to get more toughness and clearly, you gotta have a dude who can go 1 on 1 and win that battle. We need those two things 

That would mean the destruction of the system.   It goes against Bud's prime directive.   I agree with you, however, I don't see Bud making us a less Finesse team.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

That would mean the destruction of the system.   It goes against Bud's prime directive.   I agree with you, however, I don't see Bud making us a less Finesse team.

The system is fine. But you gotta have more toughness. Last year, we were.just a tad short. Pero and Carroll were our tough guys, this year we have only Humphries who came late. We need to add one more tough dude. The one thing about these Hawks is we usually had tough teams. The Zaza team, Ivan, etc but Bud's teams are kinda soft. We gotta get that fight back. 

With that said, this system or not, you gotta take defenders one on one and win. I seen Jeff and Dennis do it at times, Sap and Horford at times but no one who can do it more consistently so we don't get in long lull periods. Toronto in Game 4 had a 4th Quarter where they were matching Cleveland with points with DeRozan, Lowry and Joseph. We went on two long lull periods and clearly got swept. Do getting better offense and getting more tough is two areas where we must improve next year.

[Lurker]

This small ball trend was always faux, and doesn't get as popular as it has been getting without Steph Curry. When it comes down to it, ISO ball and the big man in the middle is STILL very important. Not like the early 00's, but you CAN NOT build a team that has only one perimeter player in the starting lineup that can dribble effectively.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lurker