With Whiz, Jeff! Ask for One With Whiz!

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Teague is 27.98 years old.  He isn't as good as Conley and is similar value to Dennis.  It is a strength having both since neither is consistent so the issue really comes down to whether we are best served splitting time between two PGs like them or acquiring another asset for one and living with his ups and downs.  The other side of that issue is when management plans to compete for a chip.  If it isn't next year, then you have to think about dealing him on a time horizon basis (i.e., a possible rational e is that having years of control over Noel > 1 year of control and bird rights for Teague).

 

Competing for a chip.   Let's talk.  We all agree that the best part of our game was our PG rotation and our PF.   Why are these the two areas that Hawks fans are so willing to trade out??  We have a 2nd team All NBA PF and all I hear from Hawks fans is... Let's trade Sap.  We have a PG rotation that most teams would kill for and all I hear is that we have to trade Teague.    We are what we have always been as a fanbase..

• A fanbase more interested in trading for capspace than  for having good players.
• A fanbase that more interested in having Lottery parties than having Playoff parties.
• We talk about the Front office as if the front office is a group of roving idiots when the truth is that the idiots are the fans who want to trade off all the teams valuable pieces for unproven bench players.  
• We'd rather turn a blind eye to what the problem has been since we had Smoove... the fact that Horf is not a C.. than to try to address it.   Our addressing Horf becoming increasingly finesse in his old age is.. let's pay him 25+ million per year for the next 4 years... Let's trade away our PG for a BU C who can help Horf... and let's give away our Allstar PF for a decent Sf who can make us forget about the fact that Horf pulls in 2, 5, 4, and 1 rebounds on several occasions including the playoffs.

No wonder we don't garner much respect.   Too many children talking about all the things we can get on Christmas day and not knowing the cost of them.

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

I'm having a hard time seeing where:

"He won't be 28 til Dec."

Is a mathematically correct statement. Yes, he'll be 28 in December but he actually turns 28 this month. One week. Like, a whole helluva lot sooner than later.

So he got the month and math wrong. If we're quivering over 1 week for birthdays (why the hell wouldn't we round up here?), then we're crashing towards an Excusodus type argument here.

I'm not here to defend Diesel but this is nitpicking.   The math is : 2016-1988, he hasn't had his birthday yet so he's 27.   That was the only 'math' involved.   There isn't any physical difference between someone born in June vs December.    

Plus his point is that Teague is being called a 30 year old PG which is totally false.   He's in his absolute prime right now.  

[Bankingitbig]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

• Teague is 27... not 30.
• He splits time with Schröder.. that's actually a good thing.   Most teams would love to have a great PG rotation. ... Obviously our fanbase is not astute enough to recognize the advantages and are quick to give up the better of the two for a bench player.
• There's no debating that on the offensive end, Teague is better than Conley.  Defensively you may have a point, but the Hawks defensive plan doesn't require lock down defenders.
• Would you be as quick to trade Conley for Noel? (since we're talking Conley).   The point is that circumstance seems to be driving this trade and not need.  Not if we have no plans to further change our frontcourt.   Problem is that Horf is not playing strong enough in the middle.   So to fix that, we're going to trade out an allstar quality PG for a bench player. .. and people here are saying that we're getting the better of that deal?? Really??  The only way that that deal is better is that we plan on making Noel our starter and we will use Horf and our capspace to get us a better Sf.  BECAUSE if all we wanted were more rebounds and blocks from the bench... Why not bring up and develop Edy??  Edy has potential to be exactly this.
• So once again... Hawks fans are reaching for something that makes no sense without other moves that do make sense.  Like Jaybird said, it's possible that with the cap we can bring in Barnes.  That's something that I would applaud.  However, Horf is still not a guy that we can just Pay 100+ Million dollars and keep getting back regressive soft play from and try to cover it up with bench players.  Hello Splitter, wasn't that why we traded for you?
•  

• I never said he was 30. I think it's fair to say you are "approaching 30" when you are turning 28 soon and will be 29 going into your next contract.
• Let's not be naïve. We can't have Teague and Schröder splitting time for forever. They both want to start and they both have shown that are worthy of starting. This will continue to be a distraction. We shouldn't have to keep guessing which one will be closing out games. Yes, Teague is better right now (and it's still pretty close), but Schröder has shown quite a bit of upside and has shown the mental qualities/decisiveness needed to be a winner. Plus, Schröder being only 22 is a huge plus.
• If I had Conley with only one year left on his deal and had Schröder as his backup, then yea I would probably still trade Conley for Noel. Sure Edy has the potential...... But he is FAR FAR from it. Noel has ALREADY shown he is a top defender in this league at the age of 22. Him and Millsap were the only ones in the ENTIRE league to average at least 1.5 blocks and 1.5 steals a game. Plus, Noel has quick feet and can switch on to other smaller players, guarding them at the perimeter. Edy will never be able to do that. I can't even believe I am comparing Noel to Edy right now, that's how ridiculous this is..
• How does this not make sense? Teague's contract is up after this year and we most likely won't resign him. How does it not make sense to get return for him? You get a player who has shown top-level defense. You make your team younger. You get more cap space this year. Sounds good to me...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not here to defend Diesel but this is nitpicking.   The math is : 2016-1988, he hasn't had his birthday yet so he's 27.   That was the only 'math' involved.   There isn't any physical difference between someone born in June vs December.    

Plus his point is that Teague is being called a 30 year old PG which is totally false.   He's in his absolute prime right now.  

Well yeah eggcept I never said Jeff was 28, but I certainly am pointing out that Jeff doesn't turn 28 in December .... that's math.

This has definitely gone down an Excusodus path now. Why can't people ever admit they just stink at math sometimes instead of reinventing concepts to try and appear right?

 

Also, kind of strange to accuse me of nitpicking while you are doing ..... what exactly?

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I totally agree that Teague is a really good player.   But just praying that Edy can be a rotation player is not a plan.   The dude had never even run or played any sport before a few years ago.   To compare his potential to impact a game to Noel doesn't make any sense. 

  

If all we're going to do is hide NOEL on the bench and give him Splitter like minutes.. then what's the difference.    We're not addressing the problem.  Horf will still play what 30 + minutes?  So for 30+ minutes, we will still see Horf's stretch 4 imitation.

Note... We have Edy, Splitter, Humphries...  All of these guys can and have played the 5.  Edy has the potential to be a shotblocker/rebounder.   Why go and trade for a guy that we have no intentions of making a starter?  I would rather just play Edy More than to trade away one of our PGs for Noel to sit the bench and be used in situations when Horf's not feeling Physical?

Here's a question.  Would you be as happy to trade Dennis for Noel Straight up?

 

[AHF]

Dennis and Teague can play about 48 minutes combined each game.  You'll get a few situations where they are both off the floor and a few with both on the floor but they are not viable as a PG/SG combo so  you are basically limited to 48 minutes between two good players.

At PF/C you have 96 minutes to split between Horf, Sap and Noel.  You'll get a few situations where two of them are off the floor and a few with Sap at SF but each getting 30+ minutes is very real.  A situation with a theoretical split of 32 minutes per player is easier for me to absorb than 24 minutes per player.

I'm not anxious to get rid of Teague at all.  It has to be for good value.  But I think Noel + Covington / Staukus fits that profile.

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

Well yeah eggcept I never said Jeff was 28, but I certainly am pointing out that Jeff doesn't turn 28 in December .... that's math.

This has definitely gone down an Excusodus path now. Why can't people ever admit they just stink at math sometimes instead of reinventing concepts to try and appear right?

 

Also, kind of strange to accuse me of nitpicking while you are doing ..... what exactly?

Were you the one that put up the original diesel's math is bad?   When your math was incorrect?  Hit dawg will holler... loud.

Look, I was looking up the birthdays of all these other players who are older than Teague.  I said December instead of June.  That's not MATH.. that's just a mistake.  I admit up.  But you putting up an argument suggesting that Teague is not 27...   That's MATH.  So.. let me ask you in return.  Why can't you ever admit that you just stink at math sometimes instead of reinventing concepts to try and appear right??

 

[Bankingitbig]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Dennis and Teague can play about 48 minutes combined each game.  You'll get a few situations where they are both off the floor and a few with both on the floor but they are not viable as a PG/SG combo so  you are basically limited to 48 minutes between two good players.

At PF/C you have 96 minutes to split between Horf, Sap and Noel.  You'll get a few situations where two of them are off the floor and a few with Sap at SF but each getting 30+ minutes is very real.  A situation with a theoretical split of 32 minutes per player is easier for me to absorb than 24 minutes per player.

I'm not anxious to get rid of Teague at all.  It has to be for good value.  But I think Noel + Covington / Staukus fits that profile.

If we can swing Teague for Noel + Covington, then there should be riots in Philly.

[macdaddy]

12 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

Well yeah eggcept I never said Jeff was 28, but I certainly am pointing out that Jeff doesn't turn 28 in December .... that's math.

This has definitely gone down an Excusodus path now. Why can't people ever admit they just stink at math sometimes instead of reinventing concepts to try and appear right?

 

Also, kind of strange to accuse me of nitpicking while you are doing ..... what exactly?

I didn't realize that calling out someone for nitpicking is actually nitpicking itself but ok.   Anyway, I don't really care.  All I'm saying is that the fact that he got his birth month wrong is TOTALLY immaterial to his argument.  

And I believe he wasn't saying that you said he was 30.   I think that was a reference to a posted Celtics fan saying Teague was 30 but I don't really know.   Or care.     He said he's 27 and will be 28 this year.   That's true so what's the big deal?

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Dennis and Teague can play about 48 minutes combined each game.  You'll get a few situations where they are both off the floor and a few with both on the floor but they are not viable as a PG/SG combo so  you are basically limited to 48 minutes between two good players.

At PF/C you have 96 minutes to split between Horf, Sap and Noel.  You'll get a few situations where two of them are off the floor and a few with Sap at SF but each getting 30+ minutes is very real.  A situation with a theoretical split of 32 minutes per player is easier for me to absorb than 24 minutes per player.

I'm not anxious to get rid of Teague at all.  It has to be for good value.  But I think Noel + Covington / Staukus fits that profile.

First off, I don't think that the trade rumor is real.  I believe that it's the machination of some writer who wants to drum up traffic.   So Covington and Staukus is probably just selling the original rumor because they're getting Simmons.  

However, I don't hve a problem with a platoon from C and PF.  But, why mess up our PG rotation for that when we clearly have Splitter & Edy.    If you remember my original point, I said that I'm OK with the trade IF we show that we had further moves to come.  However, just for us to make a trade of circumstance makes less sense.  No team going for a CHIP as you say makes trades based on circumstances.   Nor do they weakned themselves in an area that they are strong in order to make their bench stronger.

[macdaddy]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If all we're going to do is hide NOEL on the bench and give him Splitter like minutes.. then what's the difference.    We're not addressing the problem.  Horf will still play what 30 + minutes?  So for 30+ minutes, we will still see Horf's stretch 4 imitation.

Note... We have Edy, Splitter, Humphries...  All of these guys can and have played the 5.  Edy has the potential to be a shotblocker/rebounder.   Why go and trade for a guy that we have no intentions of making a starter?  I would rather just play Edy More than to trade away one of our PGs for Noel to sit the bench and be used in situations when Horf's not feeling Physical?

Here's a question.  Would you be as happy to trade Dennis for Noel Straight up?

 

As @AHF said you have 96 minutes to split at the 4/5.   If you play Horf and Sap 60 then by my math!!! you have 36 minutes leftover (depending on what month you were born).   

Hopefully we won't have Splitter and just Humphries and Edy is not a great bench.    And we are acquiring guys for the long haul, not just next year.   I just don't see why anyone would be against acquiring quality young talent.   Who cares if they are coming off the bench right now?    You don't care that we have 2 starting PGs, why do you care we have 2 starting centers?

 

[Hawkmoor]

If a repost, my bad.  Hawks going all in to try and trade Teague to the Sixers. This is one of the deals we have discussed on the Squawk. Glad the Hawks are looking at it also:

http://www.nj.com/sixers/index.ssf/2016/06/nba_trade_rumors_sixers_and_atlanta_hawks_talking.html

The Sixers have a logjam when it comes to big men and could be adding another in the form of LSU's Ben Simmons with the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA Draft this month and could be moving one of them to acquire a one-time all-star guard. 

According to a report by Shams Charania of The Vertical, the Sixers and Atlanta Hawks have been in talks on a deal that would send Nerlens Noel and a package of players to the Atlanta Hawks for guard Jeff Teague: 

 

 

 Follow

Shams Charania 

 

✔@ShamsCharania

Atlanta and Philadelphia are discussing a deal centered on a Jeff Teague and Nerlens Noel package, league sources tell The Vertical.

5:52 PM - 2 Jun 2016

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According to Keith Pompey of The Philadelphia Inquirer, citing a league-source, Sixers shooting guard Nik Stauskas and/or small forward Robert Covington are the other players being discussed as part of the package the Sixers would need to give up to acquire Teague. 

Teague averaged 15.7 points and 5.9 assists last season. The 27-year-old remains under contract through next season, which means the Sixers -- albeit while owning his Larry Bird negotiation rights -- could see plenty of competition league-wide to re-sign him with a rising salary cap next season. 

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

First off, I don't think that the trade rumor is real.  I believe that it's the machination of some writer who wants to drum up traffic.   So Covington and Staukus is probably just selling the original rumor because they're getting Simmons.  

However, I don't hve a problem with a platoon from C and PF.  But, why mess up our PG rotation for that when we clearly have Splitter & Edy.    If you remember my original point, I said that I'm OK with the trade IF we show that we had further moves to come.  However, just for us to make a trade of circumstance makes less sense.  No team going for a CHIP as you say makes trades based on circumstances.   Nor do they weakned themselves in an area that they are strong in order to make their bench stronger.

Personally, I don't know Splitter's health situation coming into this year and whether the major injuries have compromised him.  I'm not counting on him giving much for next year (although I am hopeful he can return Spurs level healthy) and I definitely don't think he will be with us except on a major discount off his current salary after next season.  So Noel represents a much healthier and much higher ceiling players.  Big men like that don't come available very often and I'm on board taking a gamble on him, particularly when he comes with a useful young wing.

Edy I love but don't expect much impact next season.  Hoping he can be a real part of the rotation in 2017-18 but not banking on it.

For Dennis / Teague, I think we will have to choose between them next offseason anyway so I'm willing to weaken ourselves there (and perhaps draft Ulis or someone else as a backup) this season if Bud knows he is picking Dennis anyway.  Bud's usage of Teague against Cleveland suggests to me he has already made his mind up on that front, but I'll grant that is my speculation.

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

First off, I don't think that the trade rumor is real.  I believe that it's the machination of some writer who wants to drum up traffic.   So Covington and Staukus is probably just selling the original rumor because they're getting Simmons.  

However, I don't hve a problem with a platoon from C and PF.  But, why mess up our PG rotation for that when we clearly have Splitter & Edy.    If you remember my original point, I said that I'm OK with the trade IF we show that we had further moves to come.  However, just for us to make a trade of circumstance makes less sense.  No team going for a CHIP as you say makes trades based on circumstances.   Nor do they weakned themselves in an area that they are strong in order to make their bench stronger.

Where were Splitter and Edy in the playoffs?   That's the issue.   Having does no good if they aren't capable of playing.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Were you the one that put up the original diesel's math is bad?   When your math was incorrect?  Hit dawg will holler... loud.

 

No Diesel, that was you because you're [EDIT: unfortunately misguided, IMO].

 

 

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Personally, I don't know Splitter's health situation coming into this year and whether the major injuries have compromised him.  I'm not counting on him giving much for next year (although I am hopeful he can return Spurs level healthy) and I definitely don't think he will be with us except on a major discount off his current salary after next season.  So Noel represents a much healthier and much higher ceiling players.  Big men like that don't come available very often and I'm on board taking a gamble on him, particularly when he comes with a useful young wing.

Edy I love but don't expect much impact next season.  Hoping he can be a real part of the rotation in 2017-18 but not banking on it.

For Dennis / Teague, I think we will have to choose between them next offseason anyway so I'm willing to weaken ourselves there (and perhaps draft Ulis or someone else as a backup) this season if Bud knows he is picking Dennis anyway.  Bud's usage of Teague against Cleveland suggests to me he has already made his mind up on that front, but I'll grant that is my speculation.

Saw this after my post but this should really just be the end of the thread.   I just don't see how there can be any disagreement with anything said here.    Anyone?   

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, ATLSmith said:

If the Hawks get Noel and Convington I'll be dancing in the streets with @kg01's mom like Kevin Bacon just came to town.

Sap is an awesome player, but I can see the Hawks signing Horf as a veteran presence/mentor and trading Sap for picks or young talent.  Horf can play outside with Noel playing inside while he improves his shot.

 

2 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

No Diesel, that was you because you're a f***ing moron.

I vote we ban HF for drunk, insult posting.  Let's also ban ATLSmith for insulting your king01.

[Diesel]

Just now, AHF said:

Personally, I don't know Splitter's health situation coming into this year and whether the major injuries have compromised him.  I'm not counting on him giving much for next year (although I am hopeful he can return Spurs level healthy) and I definitely don't think he will be with us except on a major discount off his current salary after next season.  So Noel represents a much healthier and much higher ceiling players.  Big men like that don't come available very often and I'm on board taking a gamble on him, particularly when he comes with a useful young wing.

That's the 64 dollar question.  If Splitter is 100% coming back... then making this trade is foolish.  Giving up a starter for a bench player... show me championship teams that do that?

If it's Noel and Covengton, I'm not mad.  However, I doubt it's a real rumor.  Moreover, if that's the case, I would like to see us take advantage of the leverage and offer Horf something much less than the max.

Back to the original question. Name a championship level team trading a starter for a bench player?

Last year, there were strong rumors that the Grizz would trade MCJ to NY.  Really?  Anybody they could have gotten would have been a bench plyer.

How about Dwayne Wade leaving Miami in a trade?

How about Butler being traded from the Bulls?

This is all the silliness of a guy coming into his contract year... however, no Chip worthy team is making that trade.

 

[Sothron]

We can't count on Horford going forward. Millsap completely outplayed him last season. The Al we remember is not the same player we have now. Current Horford is still a good player but his weaknesses are too much to pay him a max deal and count on him as a main piece to win a title. I would rather gamble on Noel and that we can get some kind of offense out of him as a 22 year old than invest that kind of money in an aging player whose fear of repeating injuries has killed his competitive desire.

[Diesel]

14 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

No Diesel, that was you because you're a f***ing moron.

 

 

It's a shame you went 10 years in the past... when all you had to do was go back 1 hour to see where your math was bad.

How you gonna correct me... and I would readily admit that I have struggles with NBA math... When your Math... birthday math.. doesn't add up??

Just admit it Fanatic.  YOU f***ed UP!

Oh... I get it.  this is a point of pride for you... You're the capologist.  You're the analytics guy... and you just f***ed up over Birthday math.   Can't admit your shortcomings?