The Outsiders Den

[NBASupes]

For @Spud2Nique and @TheNorthCydeRises, what are Dwight's impactful strengths? You can't use him like Stan Van Gundy used him which is was basic. It was protect the 3 point line and force all offensive players into the paint for Dwight who was extremely freakish athletically and  an elite talent with elite defensive instincts. He never learned the nuisances of defense. I would say Josh is a more disciplined defender and Smoove is NOT a disciplined defender. He like Smoove relied on instincts and his athletic ability and now that it's gone, he's not really that effective. His shot blocking is still good but Millsap is better. Seriously, Millsap is better. He is basically on the same level with Horford who really is just a good shot blocker. Not very good like Sap. Not v. elite like Gobert or Whiteside or Jordan, neither of whom are disciplined defenders but they rely on defensive instincts and superior length and athletic ability to block shots. Gobert more so is disciplined, has extreme length but is just a decent athlete. 

You could mention rebounding but Houston was the 6th worse team in the NBA at transition defense. A part of this was on Dwight. Some on Harden. But mainly them two. Dwight for being lazy and not running back on defense and Harden for the same reasons. So getting these rebounds might look great but like Rondo, there is possession changing boards like T. Thompson gets and got against Atlanta in the 2014-15 playoffs and there is empty stats rebounds that Kevin Love used to get in Minnesota. Is your rebound creating efficiency is what I look for. This is not the 90's anymore. Rebounding while still improve doesn't really mean much if it comes at the expense of efficient play. 

You can talk about FG% but Dwight's FG% in average situations is 62.1%.  This is very good until you realize that 97.3 percent is less than 10 feet away from the basket. For an average NBA traditional center, these numbers aren't impressive. If you look at Tyson Chandler in Dallas last year, you will see that his FG% was  63.7 with extremely high less than 10 ft away stat of 88.9%. If you are in the 80's, you do almost all of your operating in the paint but at 95 or higher percentages, you truly only operate in the paint. That's not a good thing especially if your shot volume is as high at Howard. Now if you are Biyombo, Asik and other players who tend you lack skills, this should not alarm you but for Howard, he needs be to be damn near elite to justify such lack of versatility in today's NBA. Even a below average NBA vet center like Nene is a good 57.3% in FG percent from less than 10 ft at an average 55.7% which shows he realizes he isn't the athlete he was to live in the paint v. today's NBA players. 

What is most alarming scoring wise about Dwight is his 39% on two dribbles are more which means, if teams force him to post up, he can't score. This completely goes v. the logic the squawk has been pushing the last couple of days that Dwight is still this offensive force.  This places him in Gobert range of 35-40% which means his post up is completely useless. Gobert's 2 dribble is an awful 35.3% but understands his offensive limitations and only does it at 4.8% which isn't a lot but more than he should. Dwight on the other hand is at 6.9% and had the nerves to ask Morey to run he offense through him and NOT Harden who is at the least an elite scorer, good playmaker, elite ball handler and elite finisher for his position. If this isn't alarming, I don't know what is. 

This is just raw stats, the tape is even less forgiving on Howard than even the raw stats. He's garbage. He does have talent. He is still a talented player but if he doesn't realize he's not an offensive player anymore or that he's not an impactful defensive player and he needs to do more of the little things like fallen stars like Vince Carter, Shaq and Paul Pierce has done, he is on the same path as those like him named Rajon Rondo, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas where is a complete net negative and NOT useful to winning Basketball. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

When @NBASupes does find the time to reply to my original post, I hope he comes with more facts than emotion.

Until that time, enjoy the rest of the day with the fam.  I'll do the same.

( edit:  reading his rebuttal now )

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Alex]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

lol you are too much sometimes!

[bird_dirt]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

LOL ... this is old school Hawksquawk ... when long winded rants were the norm around here.   Hawksquawk has literally improved my laptop and phone typing skills over the years.

But I will adjust.

Protect that paint Dwight.

 

D12 doing Dan Dickau wrong right there.

[NBASupes]

9 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Horford was my boy.  I appreciate everything he did here in his 9 years in an Atlanta uniform.

And while I dislike Dwight's childlike personna and non-professionalism at times, we need to simply tell the truth about Howard and Horford.

This is Howard's NBA Efficiency peofile from last season ( regular season + playoffs ).  Remember, NBA Efficiency is a pure production stat, and really an indicator of who is REALLY impacting games.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/houston-rockets/players/dwight-howard/profile/16/10/159

When you talk about his impact, you are somewhat correct.  In the games he logged at least 25 minutes, Dwight head to head was only 25 - 26 - 18.   He lost head to head matchups to the likes of Mahinmi, Len, and our very own Kris Humphries.  And he got destroyed head to head by Cousins and Jordan in 2 of those games.

In the 25 games in which Dwight won his matchup, the Rockets were 16 - 9.  In the 26 games in which he lost his matchup, the Rockets were 8 - 18.

Dwight winning his matchup was more of a barometer for the Rockets winning, than Harden, who posted a gaudy 64 - 15 - 8 record in his matchups, but in those 64 matchup wins, the Rockets were only 33 - 31 in those games.

Now let's look at Horford.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/atlanta-hawks/players/al-horford/profile/16/1/4

25 - 36 - 22 record vs his center counterpart.   Horford in his losses rarely got dominated, but he did get outplayed by the likes of Tristan Thompson, Tyson Chandler, and a particularly embarrassing performance vs Cody Zeller, in which he scored 2 points and grabbed 2 rebounds in 27 minutes.

Here's the dusturbing thing about Horford last season.  We were only 13 - 12 when he won his matchup.  Now you can blame orher players on the team for those losses, but Horford rarely decisively won his matchups.  And when he lost his matchup, the Hawks were 13 - 23.

Unlike Dwight, whose play impacted wins and losses, Horford winning or losing his matchups normally determined if we lost the game.

Contrast that with Paul Millsap

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/atlanta-hawks/players/paul-millsap/profile/16/1/7

46 - 25 - 15 overall matchup record.

A 34 - 12 record in those 46 matchup wins.  In the 25 matchup losses, the Hawks were 6 - 19.   This means that HE was the true impact player for the Hawks.  

The main problem with Horford is that he was consistent as hell, but rarely elite.  So when his opponent raised his level of play and had a great game, we really needed Al to cancel that out.  And on most nights, he just didn't.  And it really was evident in the playoffs.

If Dwight gives us 17 pts - 11 rebounds, it'll surpass anything that Horford could've given us, and will have a tremendous impact on games.

At the end of the day, you, @Hotlanta1981, and @KrisWillis will end up being DEAD WRONG about losing Horford and replacing him with Dwight.

All Bud needs to do is keep that dude engaged on the offensive end, so that he'll rebound and rim protect.

The system and coaching will take care of the rest.

 

@TheNorthCydeRises, what are you talking about? I don't understand your post.  What's the context behind your post?  Please explain. You just using blanketed talking points that make much sense.  I read the post once and was like, this doesn't make any sense. I even read previous years and it makes even less sense. Is there anyone who is reputable who uses what you just posted as a reference? 

@TheNorthCydeRises, I will once again use a Football reference. From an average NFL fan like me to my friend who damn near could work for the NFL but choose IT. I once again am a Colin Kaepernick fan. I don't think he's a star but I enjoy watching him play. Makes big throws, runs fast and really can change the game with big plays and he's not boring as hell. I look at his QB rating and tell my friend. You see, this is why Kaepernick is better than Andrew Luck who I like as well but is completely overrated in my book. Luck is seen as the best young QB in the league and some think he's better than Cam Newton which I find absolutely idiotic. Cam is the best player in the NFL by a mile and the best QB by far which he disagreed and said Rodgers and Brady are better but I regress. I said how is Kaep seen as a backup while making it further in the playoffs than Luck, running for more yards and he has a higher QB rating. You see, it doesn't saying Running QB rating, it's called QB rating, that's gospel right? He was like. "No." The QB rating is an empty stat. I was like how. Because it has no context. I was like, explain? The reason why Luck is better and is going to be highly paid is because of responsibilities. I was like, what do you mean. He was like "Luck's job is massive, he has pre-snap responsibilities, post snap reads, he breaks down the defense in pre snap, he calls his own plays, he audibles into the right one, he gets his line correctly lined up for the defense and makes changes as he see fit, he quickly scans the field, he goes through progressions very well, he knows when and when not to leave the pocket, he can throw on the run, he can make everyone's job a lot easier. Kaep doesn't do most of these things." 

Then I asked, well if he does all of that, why is his QB rating so low? Paraphrasing but not exactly "Because they play a system that is very risky and most couldn't play that or they would lose. They look for big plays. They look for getting the most impact each given drive. This is what makes him so special to so many teams, coaches and scouts across the league. Kaep on the other hand takes risk as well but for him big risk is more safe than taking what the defense gives you because he played into what the defense wanted him to do, he would severely struggle and his team would be completely ineffective." So what would be the best stat to use when talking about Luck's impact? "You really just have to watch the film and use a bunch of advanced stats with it to come to a sound conclusion. That tells all of the stories but most fans watch a lot of games and they can kinda see it and get it. Most NFL fans are more advanced than your average NBA fan." I was like, I completely agree, even our diehards can be idiots. "Well the NBA plays 82 games so it makes it much harder to watch for most fans so basic stats tend to be used more by NBA fans than others." Agreed to a degree but it seems like Baseball is the best analytic sport and he was like yes it is. 'For the obvious, it has a large individual element that the NBA or NFL doesn't have." I agreed and said, this is exactly how I see it. 

So @TheNorthCydeRises, from my understanding for football, sites like this tend to be the best for QB's and understanding the impact of the game for Football. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-andrew-luck

But for Basketball, you have to use a lot since no one sites seems to have it right. Who knows, maybe I might create it with Basketballbreakdown. 

So let's use Al Horford which I will do a breakdown on tonight. I actually have to do homework on it. 

I will use a combination of 82games.com, nba.com SAP team and player stats, I will try to find videos online of his responsibility online which might be too hard to find and I do a similar breakdown for Dwight. This actually takes a lot of time so it might be tonight, might this or next weekend but I will do this post. 

 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Spud2Nique said:

Please, elaborate.

 

 

Also, I understand that you think very highly of your own opinion but honestly, it comes off kinda cocky and arrogant to me. I mean, ive been watching the game since you were in diapers, or not conceived but I still don't go around telling people my opinion is better than theirs. It's off putting and not very becoming is all.

I have every right to think highly of my opinion. I put a lot of time and work into it. I have a personal career. I think I am pretty good at it. I don't think someone who I teach will be as good as me since I have 7  years of experience and I know what skill-set, discipline and personality it takes to be good at what I do. I expect @AHF feels the same about what he does. Nothing I said was belittling to anyone or any poster. You damn right I think highly of myself in this. As should anyone who puts the attention to detail into it as I do. 

Internet messages are difficult for most because it comes off as tone-deaf. Because of that, we only can assume how the messenger is delivering the message and since we tend to be more open to comments we agree with, we tend to think those with opposite opinions are being abrasive and not really getting the message out with sound intent. That's simple human behavior for a channel like the internet. But if you heard me in person, you would realize, I am not being cocky or arrogant. I am quite humble. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Man, don't talk to me about San Antonio, I was rooting for them before it was popular, when they were considered boring. Tim Duncan is perched so high above Al that even with Al using the brightest spotlight in the universe he wouldn't be able to see Tim Duncan from his low level branch.

No one's denying that Al has a certain skillset that makes lives easier for other players and that's cool, but we needed MORE  from him when it mattered most and he fell short of it. If Al had Noah's passion and fire to go with his 'eliteness' most here won't complain.

You lost me with the other stuff lumping Dwight  Nick Young and Gerald Green - I don't know how to respond to that because I can't think of anyone who places any value on those 2.

 

I never said Al was on the level. As I mentioned in the post. I like players who are more impact based. Duncan is an elite talent and one of the greatest impact players to ever play the game. Please see context and do not read literally for my message. Otherwise you will misconstrue everything I wrote and it will be pointless for me to even reply as it's emotionally based. Al is not Noah, Duncan is not Al, Draymond is not Duncan, Korver is not Draymond. All players have different personalities and different personality factors. DX wrote a great article on this not to long ago. 

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Opportunity-Knocks-Personality-Factors--Top-To-Bottom-5439/

They are all self-centered players driven by their ego. Clearly, Nick Young and Gerald Green aren't talented anymore but that style of NBA player that those mentioned guys are has since left the NBA. I called it the after MJ era. Iverson, Arenas, McGrady, Francis etc all had certain personalities that fit that era. Today, those guys are slowly dying out. J.R. Smith is still having success but most aren't and are out or going out of the league. 

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, rd79 said:

And we don't know about the new team's ceiling yet. But after the change there is a chance to get better. The team also can get worse. We will see how the new and relegated parts fit together.

One fascinating part of team sports is, that the sum of players not necessarily equals the team.

And seeing D12 making free throws in the other thread makes me curious how he’ll work on his weaknesses and fits the team. I also want to see Bud adjust the game plan to his new players.

My biggest concern is how many games Dwight could miss due to injuries.

I'm not saying Dwight's the best answer.  None of his other stops ended well and Idon' trust him. However, the other era had to go one way or another and the Dwight experiment is here.

[Lurker]

Horford is a good player and all, but I know what the Horford/Korver/Teague ceiling is, and it's the same ceiling the Hawks teams of 2009-2012 that got made fun of for getting punked consistently in the playoffs by legitimate contenders. You can claim he's an elite glue guy that can be a final piece to a legit contender and I'll listen. But, you need to explain this...

How do you get those other pieces onto the Hawks that make them into a legitimate contender (like a star wing player) without giving up something big? That's a trick question, because you can't.

If you keep Al Horford and Jeff Teague, you pretty much accept that you're not contending for a title with them as Hawks, EVER.

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

By this time next season and our front court includes Blake Griffin Imma laugh

[sturt]

25 minutes ago, Alex said:

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

lol you are too much sometimes!

I'm jealous of her innate ability to dig into her GIF repertoire and scrounge up just the right graphic to prompt a fitting response.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

I don't see you, NBASupes,  as a hater; I see you as a Horford fan. I would have liked to have kept him as well to see if he or SAP was the best pairing alongside Howard. But he is gone. Crying over spilled milk gets us nothing.

I think you are a proponent of tanking to begin with, if so, then according to what you think in this thread, maybe losing Horford will eventually be seen as one of your happiest days as a Hawks fan.

I am a Horford fan. I am a fan of Melo. I am a fan of LeBron. I am a fan of Korver. I am a fan even if most don't think so of Teague. I am a fan of Noah. I hate Draymond Green but I completely respect and appreciate his game. I am a fan of Curry at times. I am a fan of Westbrook with all his flaws. I can't stand James Har(no D)en. What's funny is James can really play defense if he wants but he doesn't want to play D. I am a fan of Durant. I am a fan of Lin. I am a fan on MKG. I am a fan of Duncan, Manu and most of the Spurs. I am a fan of Tavares. I am a fan of MANY NBA players. 

 

I think the difference with Horford for you guys to others is you see me say stuff NO ONE else is saying about Al while everyone generally say those things about the others to a degree. So it comes off as fanboyish when it really isn't fanboyish at all.  No one else is saying Horford is better than Malone and Horford is elite. That's just me. That's the part that gets fans. It's like how he is elite? 16/7 is elite, are you f***ing insane? 3 rebounds in the playoffs v. Cleveland, elite bro? Are you nuts or are you just crazy? Nope, I watched the games. It's that simple. I see all of what Al has to do. It's more on his plate than any other player in the NBA not named LeBron James and it used to be just James and Duncan as recently as last year. 

I think Al does a lot of things elite. More than most. I think he doesn't get recognized for it. He just doesn't do the stat based things elite like scoring and he doesn't hold enough usage to use his great decision making skills on the ball and it's not in his personality type which @Hotlanta1981was actually right about. That's why I can say Al Horford is the best PF in the NBA and others at that time was like Kevin Love or Blake Griffin, I was like NOPE! Al Horford. Because they were getting 25/13 and Al was getting 16 and 10 or 17 and 9 but I watched the games. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

After thinking about it for acouple of days, I think it was just time to move on from Teague/Horford because they were going to be getting top dollars  (Horford this year and Teague next year) but it was very obvious that the Hawks had reached  ceiling  with these two guys. It was time for a change.

This could be true but I still feel like Atlanta wasn't that far away. They just needed more fit. The thing with Horford is you can build around him as your best player but you BETTER have a legit #1 option and great fit to win. Like, I feel like I can built a championship team in Atlanta. I need a deep bench, a great system which Bud has but it only fits certain players, i.e. Lou and Payne didn't fit, Al Horford and I need no weaknesses in the starting five. 

Ideally, 

Teague- selfishless, runs an offense, can play off the ball, can defend well and while he's a mediocre PnR defender, I got Al who is elite at defending those. 

Klay Thompson- A legit #1 option now. He fits the system and he can really do work. 

Carroll or Crowder- This system allow for weak ball handling tweeners to play SF and Horford makes up for the lapses that these two can have on offense. Defensively, they fit the system. 

Horford or Millsap

(Noah if the PF is Horford) or (Horford if his PF is Sap)

Give me a deep bench and I can win a title with this crew. They are extremely efficient players who make winning plays constantly.  The game is a 48 minute game and usually the winner is the team that makes the most winning plays. That's why Atlanta won 60 games with below average NBA talent and why Golden State with just good talent can dominate the NBA while teams like Orlando and Milwaukee with average talent play average and teams with damn near elite talent like OKC are underwhelming. 

[IheartVolt]

This thread smells of empty Boones Farm bottles and zanax.. All fluff and b.s. with no truth to all the heart felt emotions

[TheNorthCydeRises]

46 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

For @Spud2Nique and @TheNorthCydeRises, what are Dwight's impactful strengths? You can't use him like Stan Van Gundy used him which is was basic. It was protect the 3 point line and force all offensive players into the paint for Dwight who was extremely freakish athletically and  an elite talent with elite defensive instincts. He never learned the nuisances of defense. I would say Josh is a more disciplined defender and Smoove is NOT a disciplined defender. He like Smoove relied on instincts and his athletic ability and now that it's gone, he's not really that effective. His shot blocking is still good but Millsap is better. Seriously, Millsap is better. He is basically on the same level with Horford who really is just a good shot blocker. Not very good like Sap. Not v. elite like Gobert or Whiteside or Jordan, neither of whom are disciplined defenders but they rely on defensive instincts and superior length and athletic ability to block shots. Gobert more so is disciplined, has extreme length but is just a decent athlete. 

You could mention rebounding but Houston was the 6th worse team in the NBA at transition defense. A part of this was on Dwight. Some on Harden. But mainly them two. Dwight for being lazy and not running back on defense and Harden for the same reasons. So getting these rebounds might look great but like Rondo, there is possession changing boards like T. Thompson gets and got against Atlanta in the 2014-15 playoffs and there is empty stats rebounds that Kevin Love used to get in Minnesota. Is your rebound creating efficiency is what I look for. This is not the 90's anymore. Rebounding while still improve doesn't really mean much if it comes at the expense of efficient play. 

You can talk about FG% but Dwight's FG% in average situations is 62.1%.  This is very good until you realize that 97.3 percent is less than 10 feet away from the basket. For an average NBA traditional center, these numbers aren't impressive. If you look at Tyson Chandler in Dallas last year, you will see that his FG% was  63.7 with extremely high less than 10 ft away stat of 88.9%. If you are in the 80's, you do almost all of your operating in the paint but at 95 or higher percentages, you truly only operate in the paint. That's not a good thing especially if your shot volume is as high at Howard. Now if you are Biyombo, Asik and other players who tend you lack skills, this should not alarm you but for Howard, he needs be to be damn near elite to justify such lack of versatility in today's NBA. Even a below average NBA vet center like Nene is a good 57.3% in FG percent from less than 10 ft at an average 55.7% which shows he realizes he isn't the athlete he was to live in the paint v. today's NBA players. 

What is most alarming scoring wise about Dwight is his 39% on two dribbles are more which means, if teams force him to post up, he can't score. This completely goes v. the logic the squawk has been pushing the last couple of days that Dwight is still this offensive force.  This places him in Gobert range of 35-40% which means his post up is completely useless. Gobert's 2 dribble is an awful 35.3% but understands his offensive limitations and only does it at 4.8% which isn't a lot but more than he should. Dwight on the other hand is at 6.9% and had the nerves to ask Morey to run he offense through him and NOT Harden who is at the least an elite scorer, good playmaker, elite ball handler and elite finisher for his position. If this isn't alarming, I don't know what is. 

This is just raw stats, the tape is even less forgiving on Howard than even the raw stats. He's garbage. He does have talent. He is still a talented player but if he doesn't realize he's not an offensive player anymore or that he's not an impactful defensive player and he needs to do more of the little things like fallen stars like Vince Carter, Shaq and Paul Pierce has done, he is on the same path as those like him named Rajon Rondo, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas where is a complete net negative and NOT useful to winning Basketball. 

What are Dwight's impactful strengths?

 

- Elite rebounding . . . on both ends of the court.

When you're the Hawks, and you finish 28th in overall rebounding and a horrific 25th in defensive rebounding, you need help on that frontline.  Dwight instantly gives you that.  To try to dismiss the importance of rebounding, is to close your eyes as to what happened in the Cleveland series as uneventful. 

Game 3 was a very winnable game for the Hawks, but they blew it by giving up 18 offensive rebounds and letting Cleveland storm back in that 4th quarter.   And despite Horford having a very good offensive night ( 24 pts on 11 - 15 shooting ), he only grabbed ONE REBOUND in that game and was a whopping -26 for the night.   That was the game in which everyone was begging Bud to keep Humphries in, even if he played him alongside Al and Paul, because we all saw what was going on with the rebounding.  Offensive rebounding kept Cleveland within striking distance.  And once the Cavs got hot, the Hawks went ice cold with our lack of a go to scorer, and Mr. Horford not scoring a single point in the last 10 minutes of the game.

 

- Around the Rim scoring

Interesting  that you cite a 2 dribble ( 39% stat ) to try to discredit Dwight.   Especially when that only equaled 6.9% of all of his possessions.  When you extend that to 3 - 6 dribbles, that FG% increases to 46.7%.   But even that only equaled 7.5% of his possessions.

His bread and butter is scoring at the rim, whether it be via pick and roll, the lob, or off of an offensive rebound, in which he's one of the best in the league at getting.  73.1% of his possessions are no dribbles at the rim.  And he shoots 68% on those shots.   So it's kind of disingenuous to focus on a 2 dribble stat, when 93% of his other possessions show that he is an effective around the rim scorer.

 

So what do the Hawks need?

- A go to scorer

- Much better rebounding

- A post scorer to get easy buckets

 

Dwight gives us 2 of the 3.   And because he's not playing with a guy in Harden, who believes that he has to do all of the scoring and make all of the plays, the potential for Dwight to make the Hawks better exceeds what Horford by himself could bring.   It would be GREAT if we had them both, to really match up against anybody.   But when outside shots aren't falling, we do have an option now to throw it inside and see if Dwight can get a bucket or get fouled, to stop momentum.

 

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What are Dwight's impactful strengths?

 

- Elite rebounding . . . on both ends of the court.

When you're the Hawks, and you finish 28th in overall rebounding and a horrific 25th in defensive rebounding, you need help on that frontline.  Dwight instantly gives you that.  To try to dismiss the importance of rebounding, is to close your eyes as to what happened in the Cleveland series as uneventful. 

Game 3 was a very winnable game for the Hawks, but they blew it by giving up 18 offensive rebounds and letting Cleveland storm back in that 4th quarter.   And despite Horford having a very good offensive night ( 24 pts on 11 - 15 shooting ), he only grabbed ONE REBOUND in that game and was a whopping -26 for the night.   That was the game in which everyone was begging Bud to keep Humphries in, even if he played him alongside Al and Paul, because we all saw what was going on with the rebounding.  Offensive rebounding kept Cleveland within striking distance.  And once the Cavs got hot, the Hawks went ice cold with our lack of a go to scorer, and Mr. Horford not scoring a single point in the last 10 minutes of the game.

 

- Around the Rim scoring

Interesting  that you cite a 2 dribble ( 39% stat ) to try to discredit Dwight.   Especially when that only equaled 6.9% of all of his possessions.  When you extend that to 3 - 6 dribbles, that FG% increases to 46.7%.   But even that only equaled 7.5% of his possessions.

His bread and butter is scoring at the rim, whether it be via pick and roll, the lob, or off of an offensive rebound, in which he's one of the best in the league at getting.  73.1% of his possessions are no dribbles at the rim.  And he shoots 68% on those shots.   So it's kind of disingenuous to focus on a 2 dribble stat, when 93% of his other possessions show that he is an effective around the rim scorer.

 

So what do the Hawks need?

- A go to scorer

- Much better rebounding

- A post scorer to get easy buckets

 

Dwight gives us 2 of the 3.   And because he's not playing with a guy in Harden, who believes that he has to do all of the scoring and make all of the plays, the potential for Dwight to make the Hawks better exceeds what Horford by himself could bring.   It would be GREAT if we had them both, to really match up against anybody.   But when outside shots aren't falling, we do have an option now to throw it inside and see if Dwight can get a bucket or get fouled, to stop momentum.

 

I won't post reply to all of this right now since I am on the clock. But quickly to answer your questions. 

- A go to scorer - He's far from that. 

- Much better rebounding? True but this is without Horford so we are adding a lot of other issues we didn't have before. So this is an addition but is it an addition which isn't conducive is the question.

- He led the NBA in post touches by a large margin, I am not so sure this is accurate. It sounds good but where's the proof in the pudding.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

 The thing with Horford is you can build around him as your best player but you BETTER have a legit #1 option and great fit to win.

If your  BEST player isn't your number #1 - Guess what HE ISN'T YOUR BEST PLAYER.

I may not have enough insight about certain nuances of the games, but I know what I see in Al as it relates to him as BEST player.

Your BEST player needs complimentary pieces around him , not be one - that's Al.

[Lurker]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If your  BEST player isn't your number #1 - Guess what HE ISN'T YOUR BEST PLAYER.

I may not have enough insight about certain nuances of the games, but I know what I see in Al as it relates to him as BEST player.

Your BEST player needs complimentary pieces around him , not be one - that's Al.

DING DING DING!

[Lurker]

Signing Dwight Howard is not a tanking move in the Hawks eyes, it may very well have been Tony Ressler that forced Horford out and Ressler and Grant Hill that campaigned for the Howard signing. Ressler likely saw Horford as an extremely overrated player that does not deserve a full five year max.

[Sothron]

Horford is not a player you can win a title with as the best player on the team. He's the ideal 3rd best player on a title team. Heck we've said that since he was a rookie.