Hawks vs Cleveland vs Warriors

[thecampster]

The Warriors lost 6 rotation players to free agency/Durant, the Cavs lost 3 (Smith/Mosgov/Delly). The Hawks, added...trading Dwight for Horford, Delaney/Jack for Teague/Patterson and having Splitter/Korver healthy (not to mention the rookies). I wanted to compare the 3 rosters for an honest look. In all cases, I will consider defensive impact as well.

Format 5>3>1 points.

PG - Dennis vs Irving vs Curry.

The obvious answer here is Warriors>Cavs>Hawks.

SG - Baze vs Shumpert vs Thompson

I think its fair to say Warriors>Hawks>Cavs

SF - Korver vs Lebron vs Durant

Cavs > Warriors > Hawks

PF - Millsap vs Love vs Green

So here we have Cavs > Hawks > Warriors

C - Howard vs Thompson vs Pachulia

Pretty obvious here again Hawks > Cavs > Warriors

Subtotal starters - Hawks(13), Cavs (17), Warriors(15)

Bench rotational players

Sefalosha, Delaney, Humphries, Splitter, THj.

vs

Frye, Williams, Kaun, Dunleavy, Jefferson

vs

Iggy, West, Livingston, and who knows

Hawks>Cavs>Warriors

Emergency replacements.  The Cavs have only rookies and min players...the Warriors have rookies and 2 spots to fill. The Hawks have Jack, Moose, Edy, Scott. Adv Hawks > Cavs > Warriors.

To the casual fan, the assumption is that the Warriors got better. But through injuries last year, the Warriors depth carried them through a few sparse injuries. Injuries to any of the Warriors starters leaves grocery baggers getting significant minutes. The Cav's bench is in better shape, but the loss of JR Smith, the team's best wing defender, is a very big loss.

The Hawk's bench situation is only tenuous with the loss of Dennis/Howard.  The loss of James would be a disaster for the Cavs, the loss of either Irving or Love would be significant but they could limp through. But the Warriors lost so much to get Durant, the loss of any of their 2 starters would be horrendous.  I'm thinking the rosters are much closer than people give them credit for.

[REHawksFan]

I like the way you think but the reality is there is a major issue with your analysis.  I won't quibble over the ranking of individual players as I think you mostly got it right (although I'm not sure how on earth you put Love over Green or Milsap).  Anyway, the major flaw is using a 5>3>1 ranking system when it should be fairly obvious that those rankings won't hold up.  I mean, yes, LeBron > Durant > Korver but the weighting would be more like 100 > 90 > 55.  There's the grand canyon in between some of the Cavs and Warriors vs the Hawks players.  The same can be said for PG and SG (Kyrie and Steph are way ahead of Dennis and Klay is way ahead of both Baze and Sumpert).   So it doesn't necessarily translate into any reasonable quantitative ranking. 

[NBASupes]

LeBron isn't just greater than Kyle like he is to Durant.

[CJB]

Love better than Milsap and Green? If anything it's green > Milsap > love

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

3 minutes ago, CJB said:

Love better than Milsap and Green? If anything it's green > Milsap > love

I'd argue we have the best PF of them all TBH.... Idk how he figures Love was best... 

[Guest]

The problem with these types of comparisons is there's no way to account for the fact that guys being on the floor with great players simply makes them better.

So sure, Millsap is better than Love individually.  However, Love (with Lebron) becomes much better than Millsap (with anyone we have).  Friggin DellavaDLeague could hold his own with Dennis/Jeff (who are clearly much better players) simply because of him being on the same team as Lebron.

And @NBASupes is right.  The degree to which Lebron is better than Kyle is off the charts with comparison to how much better Lebron is than Durant.  (See I don't just pick on you, Supers.)

[Diesel]

Rankings are nice.. but they all go out the window.  The team dynamic is greater than the individual parts in most cases.   If that were not true, then last year Houston would have made it to the finals instead of losing in the first round.   If that were not true, then the Sacramento Kings would have won at least 2 rings and the Warriors would have won with Run-TMC.  If that were not true, then Oneal and Penny should have won 3 rings. 

 Here's the truth about this upcoming season.  We will be better than a lot of people believe. 

It comes down to Dennis.

 

 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Rankings are nice.. but they all go out the window.  The team dynamic is greater than the individual parts in most cases.   If that were not true, then last year Houston would have made it to the finals instead of losing in the first round.   If that were not true, then the Sacramento Kings would have won at least 2 rings and the Warriors would have won with Run-TMC.  If that were not true, then Oneal and Penny should have won 3 rings. 

 Here's the truth about this upcoming season.  We will be better than a lot of people believe. 

It comes down to Dennis.

 

 

It comes down to Dennis and Dwight. Both players need to significantly step up their games. Dwight hasn't been shit in years and Dennis needs to be a lot more consistent as a starter.

[gurpilo]

I am afraid this does not work this way, you do not take int account ho much better Durant or Lebron are compared to Thabo, or Curry and Irving than Schröder... 

The issue here is can Dwight dominate the C as Lebron or Durant make at the SF? 

And agreed, Green is better than Milsap and both better than today's Love, Warriors are really better and also Cavs

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It comes down to Dennis and Dwight. Both players need to significantly step up their games. Dwight hasn't been shit in years and Dennis needs to be a lot more consistent as a starter.

Last year, Dwight shot 62% and was second in the league in rebounding.   He may not have looked good because he was misused in Houston but that doesn't mean that he's not good.  It really just comes down to Dennis and thank God we have Jack.   Dennis has to be able to use BBIQ.  People talked about Dennis' aggressive.. I think that's just a sign that he doesn't really have the BBIQ to run Budball.   It's like Vince Cunningham with the Eagles... Looks good on a busted play... Most of the offense consisted of Busted plays. However, when you have Budball 24.7 and you're the starter now, you have to be able to take command of this offense and make these weapons work.  If Dennis starts doing his best Harden imitation, I want him traded while his value is still high.

 

[NBASupes]

48 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Last year, Dwight shot 62% and was second in the league in rebounding.   He may not have looked good because he was misused in Houston but that doesn't mean that he's not good.  It really just comes down to Dennis and thank God we have Jack.   Dennis has to be able to use BBIQ.  People talked about Dennis' aggressive.. I think that's just a sign that he doesn't really have the BBIQ to run Budball.   It's like Vince Cunningham with the Eagles... Looks good on a busted play... Most of the offense consisted of Busted plays. However, when you have Budball 24.7 and you're the starter now, you have to be able to take command of this offense and make these weapons work.  If Dennis starts doing his best Harden imitation, I want him traded while his value is still high.

 

I already explain Dwight in detail on the board so you can just look up my opinion in the Outsiders Den Thread.

 

Not sure what you are talking about with Dennis but he needs to shoot better and be more consistent. 

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I already explain Dwight in detail on the board so you can just look up my opinion in the Outsiders Den Thread.

 

Not sure what you are talking about with Dennis but he needs to shoot better and be more consistent. 

Dennis is going to have run the offense.  IF he runs the offense, we will be very successful.  IF he doesn't run the offense, then we will be only as good as his isogame... and that's not great. 

 

[Lurker]

Dwight was a positive factor for Houston a mere two seasons ago (counting back starting from the one that just ended). So two seasons and effectively 2-3 years is "a very long time".

And if you don't believe that he was, than that means its time to stop using analytics as a factor, as that's what I'm doing here. Analytics say that Supes is lying.

That doesn't mean I'm going to stop beating this drum: The reason that there is a huge problem is Al Horford prevented Kyle Korver's defense from being more of a problem as a starter. If Kyle Korver continues to start, there are going to be significant perimeter defense issues.

[Lurker]

And FWIW: If Bud isn't changing his offensive and defensive style at the start of the season, like Supes thinks he won't, he should be fired.

I think he will. We'll see more PNR and looking to go inside on transition on offense, and on defense Millsap will be responsible for covering Kyle up like a glove on the perimeter if he plays a ton of mins.

I think we'll see Millsap's defensive rebounds decrease because he'll have the responsibilities on the perimeter this coming season.