The 9 year Itch....

[Diesel]

I was just thinking about something while contemplating Horford Better than Karl Malone???

 

Seriously.. away from that.  9 years as a Hawk is the same amount of time that Both Smoove and Horford had.  But the funny thing is that they both ended up doing the same thing... Falling in love with the outside shot, trying to be a stretch 4.  So I said, let's look at the nimbers. 

<PRE>                                                                                                                                 
Rk       Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Al Horford 2015-16  29 82 82 2631 7.2 14.3 .505 1.2 3.5 .344 6.0 10.8 .557 1.4 1.8 .798 2.0 6.1 8.2 3.6 0.9 1.7 1.5 2.2 17.1
2    Josh Smith 2012-13  27 76 76 2683 7.4 15.9 .465 0.8 2.7 .303 6.6 13.2 .498 2.2 4.3 .517 1.8 6.8 8.6 4.3 1.3 1.8 3.0 2.3 17.8
</PRE>

I had not realized that Horford shot more 3 pointers per game than Smoove did when we told him to hit the road.  Granted, Horford had better percentages...

What was the impact?

[RedDawg#8]

I was really starting to dig in to those stats, comparing minutes played and efficiency, etc... then I got to the point total and realized those numbers for Al are completely wrong, at no point in the regular season or playoffs did Al average 17.1 point a game. He finished with 15.2 for the 2nd year in a row and only 7.3 rebounds not 8.2. Are these stats adjusted per36 mins?

[Diesel]

46 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I was really starting to dig in to those stats, comparing minutes played and efficiency, etc... then I got to the point total and realized those numbers for Al are completely wrong, at no point in the regular season or playoffs did Al average 17.1 point a game. He finished with 15.2 for the 2nd year in a row and only 7.3 rebounds not 8.2. Are these stats adjusted per36 mins?

You are right.  I was using per 36 numbers.  However, here's the per game nimbers:

 

<PRE>                                                                                                                                      
Rk       Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P% eFG%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Al Horford 2015-16  29 82 82 32.1 6.5 12.8 .505 1.1 3.1 .344 5.4  9.7 .557 .547 1.3 1.6 .798 1.8 5.5 7.3 3.2 0.8 1.5 1.3 2.0 15.2
2    Josh Smith 2012-13  27 76 76 35.3 7.2 15.6 .465 0.8 2.6 .303 6.4 12.9 .498 .491 2.2 4.2 .517 1.8 6.7 8.4 4.2 1.2 1.8 3.0 2.3 17.5
</PRE>

 

[DS5]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You are right.  I was using per 36 numbers.  However, here's the per game nimbers:

 

<PRE>                                                                                                                                      
Rk       Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P% eFG%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Al Horford 2015-16  29 82 82 32.1 6.5 12.8 .505 1.1 3.1 .344 5.4  9.7 .557 .547 1.3 1.6 .798 1.8 5.5 7.3 3.2 0.8 1.5 1.3 2.0 15.2
2    Josh Smith 2012-13  27 76 76 35.3 7.2 15.6 .465 0.8 2.6 .303 6.4 12.9 .498 .491 2.2 4.2 .517 1.8 6.7 8.4 4.2 1.2 1.8 3.0 2.3 17.5
</PRE>

 

Josh was a stat sheet stuffer. Regardless of how much we hate that new Celtic player, he was definitely a lot better and had way more impact in the game than Josh.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, DS5 said:

Josh was a stat sheet stuffer. Regardless of how much we hate that new Celtic player, he was definitely a lot better and had way more impact in the game than Josh.

Yeah.  I think that's the conversation.  Smoove was definitely a better rebounder, passer, and scorer but he tended to take over the offense and get us out of our flow.  Moreover, his shots were more boneheaded because they were less likely to go in.   But even stat stuffing, Smoove never played as sawft as Horf did... Especially in the playoffs. 

 

[LucastheThird]

Looking back with my hindsight 20/20 glasses, I wish we would've kept Smoove. I know....I know, keeping Smith meant no Millsap most likely. But I can't be the only one who wonders what Bud and Hawks University could've done with Smoove.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, LucastheThird said:

Looking back with my hindsight 20/20 glasses, I wish we would've kept Smoove. I know....I know, keeping Smith meant no Millsap most likely. But I can't be the only one who wonders what Bud and Hawks University could've done with Smoove.

You're the only one.    I can show you what would have happened:

[LucastheThird]

You're probably right, but they haven't failed to maximize on a player's skill set yet. If Woody could get  him to cut 3's out and be closer to the basket, I think Bud could do more. But, it's all useless talk now. Is Smoove even in the league now?

[Guest]

Just now, LucastheThird said:

You're probably right, but they haven't failed to maximize on a player's skill set yet. If Woody could get  him to cut 3's out and be closer to the basket, I think Bud could do more. But, it's all useless talk now. Is Smoove even in the league now?

It wasn't just the 3s with Josh though - at least for me - it was so much more.  

The things he did just left me shaking my head.

I will always remember him tossing the ball from half court on a pass and hitting the backboard, not once but twice in the SAME game.   I was laughing for days.

[LucastheThird]

I know...I know...I know...don't judge me, he was one of my favorite players growing up. He looked like he actually cared about winning.

But Bud would've had his hands full, this I understand.

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It wasn't just the 3s with Josh though - at least for me - it was so much more.  

The things he did just left me shaking my head.

I will always remember him tossing the ball from half court on a pass and hitting the backboard, not once but twice in the SAME game.   I was laughing for days.

And I think that's the difference.   On paper maybe Al's and Josh's stats aren't that far off (debateable), but Al's 3s, make or miss, were usually good shots that needed to be taken.   Josh was jacking 3s like he was Steph Curry and failing to make a pass to a better, more open player.    That's all in addition to the fact that he sucks at shooting.   

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man i haven't seen that.   Hilarious.   Well Josh always was a good passer.

I never got over this play from Josh:

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

And I think that's the difference.   On paper maybe Al's and Josh's stats aren't that far off (debateable), but Al's 3s, make or miss, were usually good shots that needed to be taken.   Josh was jacking 3s like he was Steph Curry and failing to make a pass to a better, more open player.    That's all in addition to the fact that he sucks at shooting.   

I think it's a little different than that.  At that time, we were not a shoot threes to open up the floor kind of team.   Josh Smith just had that mental defect of believing that he was a stretch 4 before it was that popular to be a stretch 4.   I mean, he was fired by the Pistons because he's jacking up threes and trying to run the offense.   That was my issue.  Josh never let the PG be the PG.   Whether it was Bibby or Teague,   Josh wanted to prove himself.  

Let's not exempt Horf too quickly.  Horf was a better shot than Smoove but his decision making wasn't much better.   When we needed strong play on the interior, Horford couldn't be made to go inside.   You look at some of our playoff losses and all you see is Horf not doing what needed to be done but electing to do what wasn't working.  I don't want to think that Tristan Thompson pulled his punk card, but I would rather believe that he was just trying to make it to his next contract.  EIther way, it was bad for Atlanta. 

 

[capstone21]

There is no comparison of what each brought ... Al was a team player who had a high bbiq and played within himself ...Josh was the opposite 

[hawkman]

Smoove was mishandled period. He was raw as a Rookie and just wasn't developed right. He had the talent, athleticism, and desire but he really needed better guidance. Thank goodness the Hawks actually develop players now. I hate to see squandered talent.

[AHF]

I definitely felt a sense of loss at the potential of Josh when he departed Atlanta.  He has such raw physical tools and some really great basketball instincts (particularly I'd argue his passing and shot blocking were both plus instinctual skills).  He was not developed well by either Woody or Drew and turned into someone who emphasized his weaknesses and hid his greatest strengths.  He was not fundamentally sound on either end of the floor.

Hence, I agreed it was time to part ways when he left (didn't want him back) but wished he could have walked a different path in Atlanta.

The kid had a freaking Pacman tatooed on his arm.  It is a damn shame we couldn't make that work.

[BigDog90]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yeah.  I think that's the conversation.  Smoove was definitely a better rebounder, passer, and scorer but he tended to take over the offense and get us out of our flow.  Moreover, his shots were more boneheaded because they were less likely to go in.   But even stat stuffing, Smoove never played as sawft as Horf did... Especially in the playoffs. 

 

If he had some discipline, he could have been ATL's  Igoudala. 

[SalvorMallow]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

You're the only one.    I can show you what would have happened:

ROFL is the last picture his DUI mugshot?  You had me dyin with this!!!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I definitely felt a sense of loss at the potential of Josh when he departed Atlanta.  He has such raw physical tools and some really great basketball instincts (particularly I'd argue his passing and shot blocking were both plus instinctual skills).  He was not developed well by either Woody or Drew and turned into someone who emphasized his weaknesses and hid his greatest strengths.  He was not fundamentally sound on either end of the floor.

Hence, I agreed it was time to part ways when he left (didn't want him back) but wished he could have walked a different path in Atlanta.

The kid had a freaking Pacman tatooed on his arm.  It is a damn shame we couldn't make that work.

That part of the narrative is true but part of this falls to Josh himself.  How do we know Woody and Drew didn't implore him to do certain things which he ignored. Granted under the ASG, the coaches had little to work with in terms of ancillary services.