Hawks Roundtable....

[Diesel]

Just read this Atlanta Roundtable and I have some comments...

 

Let's start with Kris Willis.

Quote

I said throughout last season that if the Hawks weren’t committed to bringing back Al Horord then a step back was probably the correct path. 

 

As I have read some of Willis' work throughout the offseason, he has been against our move.   He was probably as big a Horf Fan as Supes...  But this is what I see in what he has said.   He is not a fan of our offseason because we didn't do what he wanted us to do?

That's basically what it comes down to.  Hawks management has to follow Kris' call in order for him to be happy with the situation.  So I guess what Kris would have been happy with is us maxing out Al and having more of the 1 rebound in 30 minutes.. and more of the not giving his all for this team.  Don't get me wrong, Al had some good seasons in Atlanta but Last season wasn't one of them.  He seem like he just didn't care anymore.. and You don't reward not caring with a max deal.

There have been a lot of times that Hawks management has not done what we wanted.. and all of those times didn't turn out to be bad.   For those who are still sucking their teeth because we didn't do all that we could to bring back Al..  Stop Crying.  Al Horford is not walking back through that door... and I don't know if we want him to. 

Moreover,  for Kris.. if you are reading...  When in the History of Hawks Basketball has taken a "Step Back" ever worked.   We took a step Back by trading Dominique and Kevin Willis.  Didn't work.  We took a step back by firing selling Mookie and Smitty.  Didn't work.  We took a step back when Babcock got rid of everybody and picked up Theo, and company.. You remember "the guarantee".  It didn't work.  We took a step back and started over with the two Joshes.  It didn't work.   Hawks fans have got to give up this notion that the only way to become a great team is to firesale everybody and start over with Rookies.  The League is becoming a league of Stars playing with stars and the other end of that equation is feeder teams.  Right now, we're closer to a team with Stars than a feeder team, but had we "stepped back" we would be in Feeder team Territory

Let's move on to Rowlands

Quote

 Signing Horford and “running it back” would have been a preferable option, and beyond, letting him walk for nothing was about as disastrous as it gets. 

 

After we signed Dwight, I would have loved to kept Horford and Sapp.   However, based on words from IThomas, it seems that Horford had been considering a move to Boston for a while.  All season long, it seems like he was playing not to get hurt.  Maybe he understood that he had this possibility in place and was more concerned with his offseason than our regular and postseason.  It's treasonous.   Sometimes when somebody walks out of your life, the best thing you can do is let them go.  This is certainly true for Horf.  Understand that Horf will probably start off on fire for the Celtics because he has what he wants now.   However, We Hawks fans can't dial it back or even hate our ownership because Horf had different plans. 

Let's move On to Lyles. 

Quote

There was essentially nothing the Hawks could do this offseason that was going to immensely change their situation, and the one thing I wanted to see them do was draft, and they did that. 

Somebody buy that man a drink.  While I won't put all of our value and hopes into draft picks... I do like the fact that Lyles recognized the situation clearly.  With Horford we were a middling team that nobody wanted to play with.   Has anybody ever asked why Al never spent any time trying to bring people to Atlanta?  All this talk about how Durant wanted Horford to join him in OKC, why didn't Horford ever try to pitch ATL to Durant??  It doesn't matter now, but one way or another this team will change.

On to Herbert..

Quote

Despite all these savvy moves, the loss of Al Horford cannot be understated. Criminally underrated and perfectly suited for Coach Bud’s spread offense and aggressive defense, Horford’s departure leaves the Hawks switching to a more pick and roll offense and traditional defense. 

I don't disagree with what Herbert says here. I would just like to mention... did you see what happened in the playoffs?  How we were murdered on the boards.   As much as we have become accustomed to the Spread offense.. Having a Stretch 5 actually weakened us.  It left our rebounding to the other team for sure, it nailed Millsap's feet to the paint, and it put too much pressure on our guards to drive.   There's nothing wrong with having a classic option.  A classic PNR option that we need.  Understand, we still have Shooters.  We still have a stretch 4.  We still have the ability to have a stretch offense and I TRUST BUD.   Bud is not a 1 trick pony, Bud is a good coach.  I watched us take Indiana to 7 games when we had absolutely NOTHING but Heart and Bud coaching and they were Juggernauts . Trust that Bud will figure a way to use his pieces that will put them all in their best light. 

Jenkins is up...

Quote

Ultimately, the Hawks have tried to field a competitive team while setting themselves up for future success, and it seems like they have succeeded at both objectives for now.

Let me just start by saying.. It's disappointing that people don't see us more than just competitive.   I will have to wait and see the next roundtable when we show how dominant we have become.  Again, I see this thought about a Hawks draftpick as being the golden grail.   Sorry.  Draft picks are nothing until they develop.  Didn't we learn anything from Marvin Williams?

Mott may be the worst of all. 

Quote

They could have committed to all three or shipped off Millsap (which was rumored to be in the works by Woj) to set themselves up for the future as well as the present. 

Such a defeated attitude.  You don't win by giving away good for future.   3 time allstar and defensive standout Paul Millsap has no equal in terms of the deals that Woj was talking?  I think the deal with Faried and draft picks for Millsap.  Are you kidding?  Let's see what those draft picks do for Denver. 

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

I'm optimistic about this season.   The one thing that is a problem for me though is that Horford didn't walk because we didn't want him or because he left for more money.   We wanted him, offered him a lot more than anyone else, and we didn't get him.   So the Hawks can't really make the case that 'this is the team we wanted'.    And frankly it looks bad to have a guy that was somewhat of a franchise guy, leave money on the table to go to a lesser rival.    It would have been better if we just offered what we wanted and left it on the table rather than basically begging him at the last minute.     In other words,  Bud had a plan for the offseason but he didn't execute it well at all.   So I think we're on plan C.

All that said I do think we are going in the right direction.   I don't know if it will work but it's worth a shot vs. running it back out there again.   

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm optimistic about this season.   The one thing that is a problem for me though is that Horford didn't walk because we didn't want him or because he left for more money.   We wanted him, offered him a lot more than anyone else, and we didn't get him.   So the Hawks can't really make the case that 'this is the team we wanted'.    And frankly it looks bad to have a guy that was somewhat of a franchise guy, leave money on the table to go to a lesser rival.    It would have been better if we just offered what we wanted and left it on the table rather than basically begging him at the last minute.     In other words,  Bud had a plan for the offseason but he didn't execute it well at all.   So I think we're on plan C.

All that said I do think we are going in the right direction.   I don't know if it will work but it's worth a shot vs. running it back out there again.   

Well, to understand Bud...  here's what I see.

Bud Loved Horford.  Bud's muse was Horford.  Bud offered Horford more than his worth and Horford left it on the table.   Moreover, if the only thing that Horford would have taken to come back was the 5 year max.. then Horford didn't care about the Hawks at all.   That's why when he left... his first statement was Celtic Pride.  That's why when he left, he had to be shamed into writing the fans a letter than looked like some intern who knew nothing about the city could write. That's why when he left, his father said that he didn't appreciate the fans of Atlanta. Horford never loved Atlanta.. or atleast this last year he didn't.  Horford only loved the idea of being paid a 5 year max.   I said it the day he left... God riddance.  I don't blame Bud at all.   In fact, I thank Horford for giving  Bud the freedom to move on... because really.. we're better without him. 

Therefore, when I see these people continually whining about the fact that Horford is gone... My expression is:

 

[frosgrim]

I actually take issue with Bud being just a spread offense guy. Remember he wanted Howard 3 years ago: that wasn't to run a spread offense. Instead, Bud took what he had and made it work (e.g., spread teams out). That said,  Bud is still about movement without the ball, but having a call that can roll to the basket does improve the spacing. Thus, instead of a "spread offense", Bud is a spacing and movement guy. Howard, at least in Bud's mind, will help with that approach. I whish the national media guys would actually understand what is being put in place here. I guess they don't have the time to look at what is going on...

[hazer]

I find myself ignoring most of what Willis says since the D8 signing. It's apparent he's so butt hurt that he's lost all objectivity.

[Guest]

[Guest]

All their articles and podcasts have the same tone: we liked Jeff and Al, we don't like Dennis and Dwight.

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

Views take...

 

Lets not fool ourselves there is one person and one person only who will determine whether this team will take a huge leap or fall back to treadmilling... Anyone care to take a guess? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler alert

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its Dennis Schröder

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Spud2Nique said:

 

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, Spud2Nique said:

Awesome!

 

[Lurker]

Most of what will be missed from Horford is not coming from the offensive end, it's coming from the defensive end. A lot of the reason for his defensive rebounding numbers being low is pretty simple, his job became to play defense on the perimeter to cover up Korver's deficiencies. Millsap was the guy that was playing inside on defense. I suspect Millsap's defensive job (if Korver stays in the starting lineup) is going to become to play defense on the perimeter to cover up Korver on the defensive end.

The only thing that will really be missed from him offensively is his passing (which Tiago replaces...if he stays healthy, which I highly doubt) unless he ditches that three point shot that likely isn't getting better than what it was due to his shot mechanics. His shot mechanics are fine for shots that are inside the arc but outside of the arc, it's very iffy.

[Diesel]

Actually, I welcome the change that is coming offensively.  We will have a PNR segment of our offense that actually attacks the rim.  I think this is going to change a lot of things.   Mainly... we have lost that softness that we had.   I agree with View.  The key piece is Dennis.  He has to learn how to play a PNR offense that gets everybody involved.  IF I were Bud, I would have him watching Utah Jazz tapes all day.

 

[sillent]

On 8/9/2016 at 7:21 AM, Diesel said:

Just read this Atlanta Roundtable and I have some comments...

 

Let's start with Kris Willis.

 

As I have read some of Willis' work throughout the offseason, he has been against our move.   He was probably as big a Horf Fan as Supes...  But this is what I see in what he has said.   He is not a fan of our offseason because we didn't do what he wanted us to do?

That's basically what it comes down to.  Hawks management has to follow Kris' call in order for him to be happy with the situation.  So I guess what Kris would have been happy with is us maxing out Al and having more of the 1 rebound in 30 minutes.. and more of the not giving his all for this team.  Don't get me wrong, Al had some good seasons in Atlanta but Last season wasn't one of them.  He seem like he just didn't care anymore.. and You don't reward not caring with a max deal.

There have been a lot of times that Hawks management has not done what we wanted.. and all of those times didn't turn out to be bad.   For those who are still sucking their teeth because we didn't do all that we could to bring back Al..  Stop Crying.  Al Horford is not walking back through that door... and I don't know if we want him to. 

Moreover,  for Kris.. if you are reading...  When in the History of Hawks Basketball has taken a "Step Back" ever worked.   We took a step Back by trading Dominique and Kevin Willis.  Didn't work.  We took a step back by firing selling Mookie and Smitty.  Didn't work.  We took a step back when Babcock got rid of everybody and picked up Theo, and company.. You remember "the guarantee".  It didn't work.  We took a step back and started over with the two Joshes.  It didn't work.   Hawks fans have got to give up this notion that the only way to become a great team is to firesale everybody and start over with Rookies.  The League is becoming a league of Stars playing with stars and the other end of that equation is feeder teams.  Right now, we're closer to a team with Stars than a feeder team, but had we "stepped back" we would be in Feeder team Territory

Let's move on to Rowlands

 

After we signed Dwight, I would have loved to kept Horford and Sapp.   However, based on words from IThomas, it seems that Horford had been considering a move to Boston for a while.  All season long, it seems like he was playing not to get hurt.  Maybe he understood that he had this possibility in place and was more concerned with his offseason than our regular and postseason.  It's treasonous.   Sometimes when somebody walks out of your life, the best thing you can do is let them go.  This is certainly true for Horf.  Understand that Horf will probably start off on fire for the Celtics because he has what he wants now.   However, We Hawks fans can't dial it back or even hate our ownership because Horf had different plans. 

Let's move On to Lyles. 

Somebody buy that man a drink.  While I won't put all of our value and hopes into draft picks... I do like the fact that Lyles recognized the situation clearly.  With Horford we were a middling team that nobody wanted to play with.   Has anybody ever asked why Al never spent any time trying to bring people to Atlanta?  All this talk about how Durant wanted Horford to join him in OKC, why didn't Horford ever try to pitch ATL to Durant??  It doesn't matter now, but one way or another this team will change.

On to Herbert..

I don't disagree with what Herbert says here. I would just like to mention... did you see what happened in the playoffs?  How we were murdered on the boards.   As much as we have become accustomed to the Spread offense.. Having a Stretch 5 actually weakened us.  It left our rebounding to the other team for sure, it nailed Millsap's feet to the paint, and it put too much pressure on our guards to drive.   There's nothing wrong with having a classic option.  A classic PNR option that we need.  Understand, we still have Shooters.  We still have a stretch 4.  We still have the ability to have a stretch offense and I TRUST BUD.   Bud is not a 1 trick pony, Bud is a good coach.  I watched us take Indiana to 7 games when we had absolutely NOTHING but Heart and Bud coaching and they were Juggernauts . Trust that Bud will figure a way to use his pieces that will put them all in their best light. 

Jenkins is up...

Let me just start by saying.. It's disappointing that people don't see us more than just competitive.   I will have to wait and see the next roundtable when we show how dominant we have become.  Again, I see this thought about a Hawks draftpick as being the golden grail.   Sorry.  Draft picks are nothing until they develop.  Didn't we learn anything from Marvin Williams?

Mott may be the worst of all. 

Such a defeated attitude.  You don't win by giving away good for future.   3 time allstar and defensive standout Paul Millsap has no equal in terms of the deals that Woj was talking?  I think the deal with Faried and draft picks for Millsap.  Are you kidding?  Let's see what those draft picks do for Denver. 

 

 

 

Great Article & thanks for posting!!

[BigDog90]

Hawks would end up like the Kings if they were to take a step back, keep missing out on top picks and getting #8 picks.

Hawks already have a delicate fanbase. They want to win now. Last thing they need is to tank and have these new Hawks post Ferry become Cavs/Warriors/Knicks fans. Philips Arena would literally become an away game site for the Hawks.

[swanlee]

I LOVE this off season, we fixed our biggest need which has haunted us for years and got a legit center, our rookies look REALLY good and will contribute now, we shed players that cost to much and have peaked and were soft Horford/Teague, we kept players that were solid and played with heart Baze/SAP/Humphries and we did all of this without breaking the bank.

I don't think the off season could have turned out any better. We did not have to blow up the team but we changed and corrected fundamental problems we have had as a team for a number of years at least on paper. We are no longer going to be a soft team that lacks rebounding strength and we are no longer going to be pushed around in the middle. AND we have some really young players with huge potential alot of speed and still have a good mix of vets.

Some people wanted to blow it all up and rebuild and this off season showed we can certainly tweak the roster to go forward being contenders and add young players for the future. We will compete much better against the Cavs then we have lately.

 

[macdaddy]

2 hours ago, swanlee said:

I LOVE this off season, we fixed our biggest need which has haunted us for years and got a legit center, our rookies look REALLY good and will contribute now, we shed players that cost to much and have peaked and were soft Horford/Teague, we kept players that were solid and played with heart Baze/SAP/Humphries and we did all of this without breaking the bank.

I don't think the off season could have turned out any better. We did not have to blow up the team but we changed and corrected fundamental problems we have had as a team for a number of years at least on paper. We are no longer going to be a soft team that lacks rebounding strength and we are no longer going to be pushed around in the middle. AND we have some really young players with huge potential alot of speed and still have a good mix of vets.

Some people wanted to blow it all up and rebuild and this off season showed we can certainly tweak the roster to go forward being contenders and add young players for the future. We will compete much better against the Cavs then we have lately.

 

No longer being soft would be a huge step forward.   I hope that's the case this year.   

The thing about the Cavs is they are damn good and are going to be good for a long time.   Not just because of Lebron.   Kyrie is going to be a friggin star that we will have to fight for the next 10 years.   Having Dennis on him vs Teague should help a little and having some rim protection should help a lot.   

[Plainview1981]

On 8/9/2016 at 7:21 AM, Diesel said:

Just read this Atlanta Roundtable and I have some comments...

 

Let's start with Kris Willis.

 

As I have read some of Willis' work throughout the offseason, he has been against our move.   He was probably as big a Horf Fan as Supes...  But this is what I see in what he has said.   He is not a fan of our offseason because we didn't do what he wanted us to do?

That's basically what it comes down to.  Hawks management has to follow Kris' call in order for him to be happy with the situation.  So I guess what Kris would have been happy with is us maxing out Al and having more of the 1 rebound in 30 minutes.. and more of the not giving his all for this team.  Don't get me wrong, Al had some good seasons in Atlanta but Last season wasn't one of them.  He seem like he just didn't care anymore.. and You don't reward not caring with a max deal.

There have been a lot of times that Hawks management has not done what we wanted.. and all of those times didn't turn out to be bad.   For those who are still sucking their teeth because we didn't do all that we could to bring back Al..  Stop Crying.  Al Horford is not walking back through that door... and I don't know if we want him to. 

Moreover,  for Kris.. if you are reading...  When in the History of Hawks Basketball has taken a "Step Back" ever worked.   We took a step Back by trading Dominique and Kevin Willis.  Didn't work.  We took a step back by firing selling Mookie and Smitty.  Didn't work.  We took a step back when Babcock got rid of everybody and picked up Theo, and company.. You remember "the guarantee".  It didn't work.  We took a step back and started over with the two Joshes.  It didn't work.   Hawks fans have got to give up this notion that the only way to become a great team is to firesale everybody and start over with Rookies.  The League is becoming a league of Stars playing with stars and the other end of that equation is feeder teams.  Right now, we're closer to a team with Stars than a feeder team, but had we "stepped back" we would be in Feeder team Territory

Let's move on to Rowlands

 

After we signed Dwight, I would have loved to kept Horford and Sapp.   However, based on words from IThomas, it seems that Horford had been considering a move to Boston for a while.  All season long, it seems like he was playing not to get hurt.  Maybe he understood that he had this possibility in place and was more concerned with his offseason than our regular and postseason.  It's treasonous.   Sometimes when somebody walks out of your life, the best thing you can do is let them go.  This is certainly true for Horf.  Understand that Horf will probably start off on fire for the Celtics because he has what he wants now.   However, We Hawks fans can't dial it back or even hate our ownership because Horf had different plans. 

Let's move On to Lyles. 

Somebody buy that man a drink.  While I won't put all of our value and hopes into draft picks... I do like the fact that Lyles recognized the situation clearly.  With Horford we were a middling team that nobody wanted to play with.   Has anybody ever asked why Al never spent any time trying to bring people to Atlanta?  All this talk about how Durant wanted Horford to join him in OKC, why didn't Horford ever try to pitch ATL to Durant??  It doesn't matter now, but one way or another this team will change.

On to Herbert..

I don't disagree with what Herbert says here. I would just like to mention... did you see what happened in the playoffs?  How we were murdered on the boards.   As much as we have become accustomed to the Spread offense.. Having a Stretch 5 actually weakened us.  It left our rebounding to the other team for sure, it nailed Millsap's feet to the paint, and it put too much pressure on our guards to drive.   There's nothing wrong with having a classic option.  A classic PNR option that we need.  Understand, we still have Shooters.  We still have a stretch 4.  We still have the ability to have a stretch offense and I TRUST BUD.   Bud is not a 1 trick pony, Bud is a good coach.  I watched us take Indiana to 7 games when we had absolutely NOTHING but Heart and Bud coaching and they were Juggernauts . Trust that Bud will figure a way to use his pieces that will put them all in their best light. 

Jenkins is up...

Let me just start by saying.. It's disappointing that people don't see us more than just competitive.   I will have to wait and see the next roundtable when we show how dominant we have become.  Again, I see this thought about a Hawks draftpick as being the golden grail.   Sorry.  Draft picks are nothing until they develop.  Didn't we learn anything from Marvin Williams?

Mott may be the worst of all. 

Such a defeated attitude.  You don't win by giving away good for future.   3 time allstar and defensive standout Paul Millsap has no equal in terms of the deals that Woj was talking?  I think the deal with Faried and draft picks for Millsap.  Are you kidding?  Let's see what those draft picks do for Denver. 

 

 

 

Regardless if you like Al or not, you would have to be delusional to truly believe that Al wanted to comeback here. The only reason he would comeback was for the wrong reasons...

Does that mean that I think that Al had no care? Not totally... I'm sure he reflected on the fact that he played nearly 10 years here, but I think he got over that fairly quickly because he has wanted to play somewhere else for quite sometime. 

Anyway, you don't give the best contracts to the players that "do the little things". That's backwards to how the league has worked. Al might have done the little things, but he wanted Big Dog pay. Only his play didn't justify it.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Hotlanta1981

[Plainview1981]

He and his father bitched for years about how he didn't want to play center anymore, but the bottom line is that he wouldn't take a little less money in order to make it happen (while also improving the talent on the team in the process), and so he decided that he wasn't  giving up shit. He wasn't the person that I and many others thought he was. He revealed his true colors of the last few years.

[BigDog90]

1 hour ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

Regardless if you like Al or not, you would have to be delusional to truly believe that Al wanted to comeback here. The only reason he would comeback was for the wrong reasons...

Does that mean that I think that Al had no care? Not totally... I'm sure he reflected on the fact that he played nearly 10 years here, but I think he got over that fairly quickly because he has wanted to play somewhere else for quite sometime. 

Anyway, you don't give the best contracts to the players that "do the little things". That's backwards to how the league has worked. Al might have done the little things, but he wanted Big Dog pay. Only his play didn't justify it.

Yeah, if he wanted to come back he wouldn't be talking to IT in TOR. Yeah, that max contract. 

He's a great 3rd option like Love/Bosh but you don't pay 3rd options max money unless you're a CLE/GS. 

[BigDog90]

58 minutes ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

He and his father bitched for years about how he didn't want to play center anymore, but the bottom line is that he wouldn't take a little less money in order to make it happen (while also improving the talent on the team in the process), and so he decided that he wasn't  giving up shit. He wasn't the person that I and many others thought he was. He revealed his true colors of the last few years.

I assume he's playing C in Boston. The game has changed since he complained about playing C. Stretch 4s, no longer are big and unathletic like Illyasova's,, you got guys faster, quick and put the ball on the floor better than Al playing that role now  like Draymond, Tobias Harris, etc.