Will the Atlanta Hawks be improved defensively in 2016-2017? Tiago Splitter seems to think so

[JTB]

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2016/8/16/12505872/atlanta-hawks-defense-tiago-splitter-dwight-howard-dennis-Schröder-al-horford-jeff-teague

 

“(Howard) is a little bit more of a defensive player than Al, more rebounds, more physical presence on the court,” Splitter said. “That is going to change our team. … Dennis, he is also a great defender. He’s a better defender than Jeff. He will pressure the point guard the whole court. He is growing up and getting more solid.” 

-Splitter

[JTB]

My opinion on the defense is that we may take a hit on defense as far maybe being slightly less efficient defensively and being around the 4th -7th best instead of 2nd best but what no one is pointing out when they compare Horford & Howard on defense is rebounds....I read all these articles and they only see how we got worse instead of being more overall if that makes sense.

Sure Sap, Horford were great defensively as well as the rest of the Hawks doing their part but let's not act like we didn't play excellent defense only to allow an offensive rebound on a normal basis.

Therefore you lose Hoford but now with Howard you may be slightly less efficient defensively but you will still be top 10 with not just better but much better rebounding all around with Howard's presence.

these articles fail to mention that we got dominated on the boards for years and it's been one of our biggest problems!

i would take a top 10 defense with a possibly top 10 or top 10-15 rebounding team over a top 6 defense with horrible rebounding any day! I think bud and staff were focused on being overall good in all categories and not keep letting this rebounding category kill us every season.

[Buzzard]

9 minutes ago, JTB said:

My opinion on the defense is that we may take a hit on defense as far maybe being slightly less efficient defensively and being around the 4th -7th best instead of 2nd best but what no one is pointing out when they compare Horford & Howard on defense is rebounds....I read all these articles and they only see how we got worse instead of being more overall if that makes sense.

Sure Sap, Horford were great defensively as well as the rest of the Hawks doing their part but let's not act like we didn't play excellent defense only to allow an offensive rebound on a normal basis.

Therefore you lose Hoford but now with Howard you may be slightly less efficient defensively but you will still be top 10 with not just better but much better rebounding all around with Howard's presence.

these articles fail to mention that we got dominated on the boards for years and it's been one of our biggest problems!

i would take a top 10 defense with a possibly top 10 or top 10-15 rebounding team over a top 6 defense with horrible rebounding any day! I think bud and staff were focused on being overall good in all categories and not keep letting this rebounding category kill us every season.

I think the jump in rebounding is going to be huge with Howard; if we can keep Baze at the 2 and not playing the 3, that will help even more. Need some rooks to step up and grab a few minutes at the 3 but its possible.

[thecampster]

5 hours ago, JTB said:

My opinion on the defense is that we may take a hit on defense as far maybe being slightly less efficient defensively and being around the 4th -7th best instead of 2nd best but what no one is pointing out when they compare Horford & Howard on defense is rebounds....I read all these articles and they only see how we got worse instead of being more overall if that makes sense.

Sure Sap, Horford were great defensively as well as the rest of the Hawks doing their part but let's not act like we didn't play excellent defense only to allow an offensive rebound on a normal basis.

Therefore you lose Hoford but now with Howard you may be slightly less efficient defensively but you will still be top 10 with not just better but much better rebounding all around with Howard's presence.

these articles fail to mention that we got dominated on the boards for years and it's been one of our biggest problems!

i would take a top 10 defense with a possibly top 10 or top 10-15 rebounding team over a top 6 defense with horrible rebounding any day! I think bud and staff were focused on being overall good in all categories and not keep letting this rebounding category kill us every season.

I think I'm going to keep reposting this, until people stop just believing the hype about AL.

http://www.82games.com/1516/15ATL14.HTM

Scroll to the bottom.  On Court, the offense scored 106 points per 100 possessions with AL, but 106.9 without. On Court, the Defense allowed 102.3 points with AL, but 104.3 without.  Who was playing defense when Al wasn't on the floor? SCRUBS, and yet it only made a 2 point per 100 possessions difference...just one made shot per 100 possessions with or without AL.

Al is no defensive stalwart. He is an average guy. His Opponent's PER at center was a 19.4. More than half the starting centers in the league posted better (including Dwight at 17.9). This myth that Horford was a defensive presence has got to stop. The numbers do not and have never born that out. He is average, very average.

and I've already posted the defensive comparison for Jeffy and Dennis...it isn't even close. Dennis' opponent's PER is a paltry 13.6 vs Teague's 15.1. We improved defensively at both positions.

Edited August 17, 2016 by thecampster

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but as mad as I am with Al for leaving (for the Dirty Seltics) I'm not discounting his impact on defense.

Where Al was special and how it worked for the Hawks was his team defense. His ability to make a switch on a PG, his help on the perimter with Jeff AND Kyle, his ability to step out and back to his man, he was a smart defender. There's no discounting that. He had his flaws yes, but don't make him out to be bum defensively.

IIRC our best defensive lineup was Dennis, THJr, Thabo, Scott and Horford. Everyone could play there man straight up. No help required.

Now having said that, our defensive principles will change and for the better (I hope) with Dwight and Dennis. Dennis will put a lot of pressure on the ball and he will fight like hell through a screen. Dwight's presence in the paint is now a deterrent to players who weren't afraid of driving the paint against Al.  Our previous defense was geared to keeping opposing players out of the paint first, second and last. Now that changes slightly, we still want to keep players out of the paint (or D8 will be in easy foul trouble) but now there is a defensive presence when  players do get there. Dwight is a more physical player. Improved  Defensive  rebounding is a given.

 

[AUhawksfan]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sorry, but as mad as I am with Al for leaving (for the Dirty Seltics) I'm not discounting his impact on defense.

Where Al was special and how it worked for the Hawks was his team defense. His ability to make a switch on a PG, his help on the perimter with Jeff AND Kyle, his ability to step out and back to his man, he was a smart defender. There's no discounting that. He had his flaws yes, but don't make him out to be bum defensively.

IIRC our best defensive lineup was Dennis, THJr, Thabo, Scott and Horford. Everyone could play there man straight up. No help required.

Now having said that, our defensive principles will change and for the better (I hope) with Dwight and Dennis. Dennis will put a lot of pressure on the ball and he will fight like hell through a screen. Dwight's presence in the paint is now a deterrent to players who weren't afraid of driving the paint against Al.  Our previous defense was geared to keeping opposing players out of the paint first, second and last. Now that changes slightly, we still want to keep players out of the paint (or D8 will be in easy foul trouble) but now there is a defensive presence when  players do get there. Dwight is a more physical player. Improved  Defensive  rebounding is a given.

 

While Al was good at sticking to his man and working through screens he was terrible at letting his man get position down low.  It's one thing to have the speed to stay with your man and not need help but he lacked any sort of ability once his man got in the painted area which is why he always seemed to have trouble with the Tristan Thompson types.

Great at sticking his man + horrible low post defense and positioning = average to me, so I'd have to agree with @thecampster on this one.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, AUhawksfan said:

While Al was good at sticking to his man and working through screens he was terrible at letting his man get position down low.  It's one thing to have the speed to stay with your man and not need help but he lacked any sort of ability once his man got in the painted area which is why he always seemed to have trouble with the Tristan Thompson types.

Great at sticking his man + horrible low post defense and positioning = average to me, so I'd have to agree with @thecampster on this one.

There is no denying that after Al's pec tears he got manhandled down low, he just wasn't as strong. However, the Hawks defense was #2 for a reason, Al was part of that no matter how you slice it. He excelled in some areas, struggled in  other areas, Bud used him to his advantages.

Our defensive approach will change.

[hazer]

T-go tellin' it like it IS! Love it.....

[AHF]

32 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

There is no denying that after Al's pec tears he got manhandled down low, he just wasn't as strong. However, the Hawks defense was #2 for a reason, Al was part of that no matter how you slice it. He excelled in some areas, struggled in  other areas, Bud used him to his advantages.

Our defensive approach will change.

I think this is honest.  Al was well above average as a defender even with his limitations down low.  He wasn't terrible there either but no where near as good as he was with other elements of our defensive scheme.  He was an important cog in the machine and we'll have to revamp our approach a bit with this.  

[hazer]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I think this is honest.  Al was well above average as a defender even with his limitations down low.  He wasn't terrible there either but no where near as good as he was with other elements of our defensive scheme.  He was an important cog in the machine and we'll have to revamp our approach a bit with this.  

The approach on D will definitely have to be revamped, but I believe for the better. From what Bud's been quoted saying, he's now going back to what he's more familiar with and knows from his days in SA. The 'adjustment' was actually away from his past experience to the type of team/players he inherited (Horford, Teague).

[AHF]

1 hour ago, hazer said:

The approach on D will definitely have to be revamped, but I believe for the better. From what Bud's been quoted saying, he's now going back to what he's more familiar with and knows from his days in SA. The 'adjustment' was actually away from his past experience to the type of team/players he inherited (Horford, Teague).

Agreed.  I hope it is overall to the better!

[Peoriabird]

One on one post defense should be much improved this year...We have been pretty bad against bigger centers in the league relying on help defenders to trap the ball out of the post which we all know leads to open 3 point shooters.  Howard & Splitter should definitely fix that problem immediately!

[RedDawg#8]

We are about to be as strong a defense as we have ever been in decades. And this is considering how good we were the past two seasons. I'm telling you, I see #1 defensive potential this season.

We can debate who starts and who plays how many minutes until our faces turn blue  but when the lineup of Schröder, Baze, Thabo, Millsap, and Howard are on the court I dare anybody to come up with a better 5 man defensive unit in the NBA,

[JTB]

12 hours ago, AUhawksfan said:

While Al was good at sticking to his man and working through screens he was terrible at letting his man get position down low.  It's one thing to have the speed to stay with your man and not need help but he lacked any sort of ability once his man got in the painted area which is why he always seemed to have trouble with the Tristan Thompson types.

Great at sticking his man + horrible low post defense and positioning = average to me, so I'd have to agree with @thecampster on this one.

I love this post because when you think about it Al and Tristian both are good at switching, playing in space defensively, etc.....but its interesting that Tristan can do ALL the same shit Horford can do defensively and STILL grab the damn defensive rebound 95% of the time. Hell he dominates horford on the boards when horford's job is supposedly to draw his ass away from the goal but somehow tristan still ends up with the board.

Some may say Tristian isn't as good as horford in space defensively and thats fine cause both are good obviously from the eye test, but my point is one is good in space and grabs rebounds after playing good in space while the other plays good in space and allows offensive boards and don't box out too well.

[Lurker]

I'll say my piece again. The defense inside will be improved, perimeter defense is questionable though.

[BigDog90]

15 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sorry, but as mad as I am with Al for leaving (for the Dirty Seltics) I'm not discounting his impact on defense.

Where Al was special and how it worked for the Hawks was his team defense. His ability to make a switch on a PG, his help on the perimter with Jeff AND Kyle, his ability to step out and back to his man, he was a smart defender. There's no discounting that. He had his flaws yes, but don't make him out to be bum defensively.

IIRC our best defensive lineup was Dennis, THJr, Thabo, Scott and Horford. Everyone could play there man straight up. No help required.

Now having said that, our defensive principles will change and for the better (I hope) with Dwight and Dennis. Dennis will put a lot of pressure on the ball and he will fight like hell through a screen. Dwight's presence in the paint is now a deterrent to players who weren't afraid of driving the paint against Al.  Our previous defense was geared to keeping opposing players out of the paint first, second and last. Now that changes slightly, we still want to keep players out of the paint (or D8 will be in easy foul trouble) but now there is a defensive presence when  players do get there. Dwight is a more physical player. Improved  Defensive  rebounding is a given.

 

I had no idea he helped with Jeff and Kyle. He did seem to quite of position when it came to defensive rebounds. I read somewhere Hawks are coached not to pursue offensive rebounds so they can get back on transition defense, it's a Popovich principle. 

I'm amazed Scott and defense can be put in the same sentence. 

What about that switch defense I kept seeing the Hawks do in the playoffs against CLE? I swear I seen them switch and double team ANYBODY with the ball. I didn't think the Hawks had the right players to run that. I felt a team with length and athleticism like DET and MIL were better suited to run that type of defense.

[thecampster]

16 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sorry, but as mad as I am with Al for leaving (for the Dirty Seltics) I'm not discounting his impact on defense.

Where Al was special and how it worked for the Hawks was his team defense. His ability to make a switch on a PG, his help on the perimter with Jeff AND Kyle, his ability to step out and back to his man, he was a smart defender. There's no discounting that. He had his flaws yes, but don't make him out to be bum defensively.

IIRC our best defensive lineup was Dennis, THJr, Thabo, Scott and Horford. Everyone could play there man straight up. No help required.

Now having said that, our defensive principles will change and for the better (I hope) with Dwight and Dennis. Dennis will put a lot of pressure on the ball and he will fight like hell through a screen. Dwight's presence in the paint is now a deterrent to players who weren't afraid of driving the paint against Al.  Our previous defense was geared to keeping opposing players out of the paint first, second and last. Now that changes slightly, we still want to keep players out of the paint (or D8 will be in easy foul trouble) but now there is a defensive presence when  players do get there. Dwight is a more physical player. Improved  Defensive  rebounding is a given.

 

The Hawks were #1 last year in FG% against, holding teams to a league best 43.2% shooting. But that number is misleading. The Hawks held the league to the 5th lowest 3PT % at 33.8%, while allowing the league the 15th most 3PT Attempts per game at 24.5/game. Part of the problem here is that although the Hawks had the best FG% against, they allowed the 5th most FG attempts at 86.1/game. This is in large part because the Hawks gave up the 4th most rebounds per game last year at 46.5 and the allowed the 4th most offensive rebounds per game at 11.5. So to combine all that, the FG% was low because of all of the 3PT attempts against, many of which were off of Offensive rebounds, kicked out for 3. Now Al is your center. Many of those 11.5 offensive rebounds per game fall directly on him and his positioning. I don't completely blame him, he is undersized for the position.

The saving grace for the defense was 9.1 steals per game (3rd in the league) and 5.9 blocks per game (5th best). Drilling down into those numbers, Al was 6th in the team in steals at .8 and 2nd in blocks at 1.48 per game. Al was outperformed by Millsap in all 5 categories, Points, Assists, Steals, Rebounds and Blocks. Al - > was/is an average NBA center on defense. He has always been out of position in Atlanta. No one is saying he sucks or should be pounding sand. But what I am saying is that Dwight is an upgrade in almost every facet of the game and most definitely on defense. Every metric points to it, only the homer in us tells us otherwise.

16 different players in the league finished with more blocks than Al, 28 players finished with more rebounds per game. Let the Celtics have him. I have no need for a center at max money that can't register in the top 15 in both rebounds/blocks. Just look at those numbers.....29th in rebounds....from a center getting max money. 17th in blocks...again....very, very average. Some people may read this and have no idea how bad it really was. You get used to things seeing them on every other night. But it was bad, really bad. The team was stellar on perimeter defense, but gave up rebound after rebound. Al was average....numbers rarely lie.

[MaceCase]

Dwight simply will allow the defense to play more straight up.  As much credit is given to Al helping to cover on the perimeter you can give just as much if not more to both him and Sap always having 3 other bodies crashing down in the paint to help defend the rim.  The swarming defense was a beaut at times but smart passing teams knew how to exploit the rotations to get the shots that they wanted.  Dwight should help simplify the rotations, let other guys funnel  ballhandlers into his intimidating presence and bug out while allowing him to single  handedly challenge shots while being able to additionally clean the glass after. 

[macdaddy]

8 hours ago, thecampster said:

The Hawks were #1 last year in FG% against, holding teams to a league best 43.2% shooting. But that number is misleading. The Hawks held the league to the 5th lowest 3PT % at 33.8%, while allowing the league the 15th most 3PT Attempts per game at 24.5/game. Part of the problem here is that although the Hawks had the best FG% against, they allowed the 5th most FG attempts at 86.1/game. This is in large part because the Hawks gave up the 4th most rebounds per game last year at 46.5 and the allowed the 4th most offensive rebounds per game at 11.5. So to combine all that, the FG% was low because of all of the 3PT attempts against, many of which were off of Offensive rebounds, kicked out for 3. Now Al is your center. Many of those 11.5 offensive rebounds per game fall directly on him and his positioning. I don't completely blame him, he is undersized for the position.

The saving grace for the defense was 9.1 steals per game (3rd in the league) and 5.9 blocks per game (5th best). Drilling down into those numbers, Al was 6th in the team in steals at .8 and 2nd in blocks at 1.48 per game. Al was outperformed by Millsap in all 5 categories, Points, Assists, Steals, Rebounds and Blocks. Al - > was/is an average NBA center on defense. He has always been out of position in Atlanta. No one is saying he sucks or should be pounding sand. But what I am saying is that Dwight is an upgrade in almost every facet of the game and most definitely on defense. Every metric points to it, only the homer in us tells us otherwise.

16 different players in the league finished with more blocks than Al, 28 players finished with more rebounds per game. Let the Celtics have him. I have no need for a center at max money that can't register in the top 15 in both rebounds/blocks. Just look at those numbers.....29th in rebounds....from a center getting max money. 17th in blocks...again....very, very average. Some people may read this and have no idea how bad it really was. You get used to things seeing them on every other night. But it was bad, really bad. The team was stellar on perimeter defense, but gave up rebound after rebound. Al was average....numbers rarely lie.

I"m not necessarily disagreeing with you but here's the thing.   I trust Bud and we know Bud is an analytics guy.   They sign Dwight, which means we are obviously trying to win now, why would Bud choose Al over Sap when Sap so thoroughly outperforms him?  

[JTB]

8 hours ago, thecampster said:

The Hawks were #1 last year in FG% against, holding teams to a league best 43.2% shooting. But that number is misleading. The Hawks held the league to the 5th lowest 3PT % at 33.8%, while allowing the league the 15th most 3PT Attempts per game at 24.5/game. Part of the problem here is that although the Hawks had the best FG% against, they allowed the 5th most FG attempts at 86.1/game. This is in large part because the Hawks gave up the 4th most rebounds per game last year at 46.5 and the allowed the 4th most offensive rebounds per game at 11.5. So to combine all that, the FG% was low because of all of the 3PT attempts against, many of which were off of Offensive rebounds, kicked out for 3. Now Al is your center. Many of those 11.5 offensive rebounds per game fall directly on him and his positioning. I don't completely blame him, he is undersized for the position.

The saving grace for the defense was 9.1 steals per game (3rd in the league) and 5.9 blocks per game (5th best). Drilling down into those numbers, Al was 6th in the team in steals at .8 and 2nd in blocks at 1.48 per game. Al was outperformed by Millsap in all 5 categories, Points, Assists, Steals, Rebounds and Blocks. Al - > was/is an average NBA center on defense. He has always been out of position in Atlanta. No one is saying he sucks or should be pounding sand. But what I am saying is that Dwight is an upgrade in almost every facet of the game and most definitely on defense. Every metric points to it, only the homer in us tells us otherwise.

16 different players in the league finished with more blocks than Al, 28 players finished with more rebounds per game. Let the Celtics have him. I have no need for a center at max money that can't register in the top 15 in both rebounds/blocks. Just look at those numbers.....29th in rebounds....from a center getting max money. 17th in blocks...again....very, very average. Some people may read this and have no idea how bad it really was. You get used to things seeing them on every other night. But it was bad, really bad. The team was stellar on perimeter defense, but gave up rebound after rebound. Al was average....numbers rarely lie.

LOL I loved Horford while he was here for the most part but thank you for speaking the truth! Rebounds matter!...PERIOD.... You cant keep playing stellar defense and not getting the rebound after all that hard effort. The only reason this flaw was hidden in the 60 win season the year before is because we had tremendous shooting as a team and was 2nd best in FG% that year right behind the warriors if I'm not mistaking (I do know we excelled greatly on offense that year) but when we came back down to earth this past season and dropped in offensive efficiency the rebounds on both ends instantly became extremely important.

Had we shot the ball well this past season for a full complete year its possible bud and staff wouldn't have fixed the rebounding issue unless the staff went completely off of what was happening constantly in the playoffs.