Official Game Thread: Hawks at heat

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Not last night he didn't when he went with that small line up down the stretch playing Thabo at power forward unnecessarily.   Anyway, I was complaining about the rebounding issue during the 60 win season while everyone here was singling me out as a complainer until it became painfully obvious.

There was debate about both how much of the rebounding issue was an intended result of scheme and how significant the rebound deficit was on W/L record.  There was a vocal group that definitely felt rebounding was not meaningful compared to other items.  There were multiple people on both sides of that issue but the larger and louder group were the ones saying all was alright on that front given our success.

Last year many more people started getting on board with the idea that rebounding was an obstacle to wins.

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

There was debate about both how much of the rebounding issue was an intended result of scheme and how significant the rebound deficit was on W/L record.  There was a vocal group that definitely felt rebounding was not meaningful compared to other items.  There were multiple people on both sides of that issue but the larger and louder group were the ones saying all was alright on that front given our success.

Last year many more people started getting on board with the idea that rebounding was an obstacle to wins.

Thank you AHF!!!!!!!

[JTB]

Howard is likely not to play in my opinion which scares me ...did you witness how terrible our team was at grabbing boards without him out there? EPIC FAIL 

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Thank you AHF!!!!!!!

Here are a couple topics:

 

[lethalweapon3]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

There was debate about both how much of the rebounding issue was an intended result of scheme and how significant the rebound deficit was on W/L record.  There was a vocal group that definitely felt rebounding was not meaningful compared to other items.  There were multiple people on both sides of that issue but the larger and louder group were the ones saying all was alright on that front given our success.

Last year many more people started getting on board with the idea that rebounding was an obstacle to wins.

*DEFENSIVE rebounding, that is!

Remember the core tenet of the Budenhustle: We don't care much about (our own) OFFENSIVE rebounds, because we're working to create better shots than our opponents, and entrusting our guys to make more of our "better" shots than our opponent making "lousy/lucky/Dion Waiters" ones. Getting back in transition defensively has been more valuable than crashing the boards for putbacks and extra chances.

An example of the Budenhustle in action from the 2015 season, described in a Game Thread when our starting center was Player of the Week and it began to dawn on many of us what exactly was going on.

What they (Bud and company, and the fanbase, by extension) DO care about is forcing tough shots, getting turnovers without excessive fouling, AND completing the necessary stops with defensive rebounds. The personnel we had just wasn't getting that last part done.

It wasn't just "We don't care about rebounds, because scoreboard!" Part of the problem we critics had is, we customarily looked at things like total rebounding number differentials ("OMG, Whiteside had 25 rebounds!!!... The Pistons had 61 rebounds!!! Imagine if they actually won the game!") without zeroing in on things like D-Reb% (especially the "contested variety" that gets tracked lately).

The red flags were still there all during the 60-22 season (22nd in NBA, 73.4 D-Reb%). The Hawks peaked in this regard during their magical run (an above-average 75.8% during December+January), but slipped to a dead-last 68.8% once the calendar flipped to February, and they finished 28th in D-Reb% after the All-Star Break. Those flags turned Torch Red last year, when the 48-34 squad slipped to 25th for the full season ("better" than themselves the prior year, at 74.6%, but not relative to the rest of the league).

Our starting center became more reliant on help rebounders over the years, sliding from (healthy seasons only) 23.7 D-Reb% in 2010-11, to 23.0% (2012-13), 19.8% (2014-15, post-pec-tear#2) to 18.2% this past season. And of course, during the playoffs, it truly cratered (16.3%).

Now, as for the devil-may-care approach to O-Rebs, that was especially cute when we had Kyle burning the nets off the rim, and we were 2nd in the league in 3FG%. But last year, when the team was the best at creating open threes, and the worst (IIRC) at actually making them, a player capable of fighting for second-chance points without screwing up defensive cohesion would have been nice. It looks like we've got that guy now.

~lw3

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, lethalweapon3 said:

*DEFENSIVE rebounding, that is!

Remember the core tenet of the Budenhustle: We don't care much about (our own) OFFENSIVE rebounds, because we're working to create better shots than our opponents, and entrusting our guys to make more of our "better" shots than our opponent making "lousy/lucky/Dion Waiters" ones. Getting back in transition defensively has been more valuable than crashing the boards for putbacks and extra chances.

An example of the Budenhustle in action from the 2015 season, described in a Game Thread when our starting center was Player of the Week and it began to dawn on many of us what exactly was going on.

What they (Bud and company, and the fanbase, by extension) DO care about is forcing tough shots, getting turnovers without excessive fouling, AND completing the necessary stops with defensive rebounds. The personnel we had just wasn't getting that last part done.

It wasn't just "We don't care about rebounds, because scoreboard!" Part of the problem we critics had is, we customarily looked at things like total rebounding number differentials ("OMG, Whiteside had 25 rebounds!!!... The Pistons had 61 rebounds!!! Imagine if they actually won the game!") without zeroing in on things like D-Reb% (especially the "contested variety" that gets tracked lately).

The red flags were still there all during the 60-22 season (22nd in NBA, 73.4 D-Reb%). The Hawks peaked in this regard during their magical run (an above-average 75.8% during December+January), but slipped to a dead-last 68.8% once the calendar flipped to February, and they finished 28th in D-Reb% after the All-Star Break. Those flags turned Torch Red last year, when the 48-34 squad slipped to 25th for the full season ("better" than themselves the prior year, at 74.6%, but not relative to the rest of the league).

Our starting center became more reliant on help rebounders over the years, sliding from (healthy seasons only) 23.7 D-Reb% in 2010-11, to 23.0% (2012-13), 19.8% (2014-15, post-pec-tear#2) to 18.2% this past season. And of course, during the playoffs, it truly cratered (16.3%).

Now, as for the devil-may-care approach to O-Rebs, that was especially cute when we had Kyle burning the nets off the rim, and we were 2nd in the league in 3FG%. But last year, when the team was the best at creating open threes, and the worst (IIRC) at actually making them, a player capable of fighting for second-chance points without screwing up defensive cohesion would have been nice. It looks like we've got that guy now.

~lw3

This exactly - the arguments were centered around Defensive rebounding which we sucked at.  bud cared not about O-Rebs to set the defense.