Official Game Thread: Hawks at Thunder

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

I think we have to accept that Dennis is going to be more of a scoring point guard than a passing one. I thought he would be a Rondo with a better jump shot but instead he's turning into a Marbury without the crazy. That isn't a bad thing. It just means our expectations need to be reset.

Clearly Bud is giving him the green light to do this. And to be fair to Dennis he's excelling at doing this. He rarely has a bad shooting game.

I don't disagree.  I just want to see him get to the point where he can use his weapons.  Use Sap in the Midrange.  Use Dwight downlow.  There will always be some time for him to score... and maybe that's the part that takes time.  I was just watching Kobe muse and I had forgotten how he missed 4-5 shots in a row (airballs) against Utah in his first playoffs.  I don't think Kobe ever really learned how to use the weapons around him... but he was a 2.   IF Dennis continues to be a scoring PG, then maybe we need a Point 2 or a Point Foward to come in to help the rest of the team.  I noticed a lot last night that Baze brought the ball up and initiated the offense.  While that's not his strong suit, it did work.  Maybe there's an OG in the league that we can get (Tomas Satoransky) or maybe find a BU PG who can offer some real PGing skills (Jack)...

Maybe with the trouble that Satoransky is having in Washington... Maybe they would be willing to take a trade for him?  I think he may be able to work for us. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

There's nothing "lucky" about winning on the road as a struggling team, against a hot team, against a top 3 player in the league, short-handed in an area of your opponents' strength.

I agree with the rest of your comments though.  I just disliked the characterization of this as a "lucky" win.  This was a big win they went out and earned.

Lucky may not have been the right word.  But the sentiment is that we were fortunate to be able to go back to the old comfortable shoes of isoball/Dennis playing off ball against that team.  When I said Lucky, my intention was to say that it won't work against most of the league.  It's comfortable but it's not how we have learned to win... nor is it where we need to go with Dwight.  If we showed up in the playoffs playing that way, teams would feast on us. 

Now... all that said, it was definitely a good win.  I was happy to see Sap find his stroke and Dennis play under control.  However, moving forward, I want us to learn to play better with all of our pieces. 

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, lethalweapon3 said:

In the classic commercial, the bear gets the worst of it in the end. As they say, "Sometimes, you get the bear..."

~lw3

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, DS17Fanboy said:

Wtf are u talking about again? What you quoted whas about miss-matches. Stop creating false myths. And yeah its on other squakwkers too that they believe in them. Just weird anyone takes you srsly. I hate fans like you, never in the whats going on in reality but always trying to find something negative. Dwight never whas a 1st or even 2nd option for the last almost 10 years. When they in the past actively went to feed him out of halfcourt situations it lead to TO's galore. Just stop posting already. Our problem is 115 points a game against us. And yeah your other whipping boy Horford has allot to dop with that, U know nothing about basketball, you just want ball-movement and rebounding for christmas. Well congrats.

Sorry to kick over your sacred Cow DS17... however, the truth is most nights... Dwight has a great size and talent advantage on the guy he plays and I watch your sacred cow come up the court, see D8's outstretched hand and pull up another jumper.   You were awfully quiet when people were questioning how Dwight could be money against  the Raptors on Thursday Night and Only get 6 attempts on Friday Night against the Hornets.  BTW.. in that game, with 6 attempts, Dwight was shooting 67%... while Your sacred cow put up twice as many shots as Dwight in roughly the same amount of minutes played.   I know.. I know.. it's the coaches fault right??  Coach called the play to tell Dennis to ignore D8.  Coach told Dennis to ignore the fact that D8 dominated the night before.   Yeah... I remember hearing that same thing for the last 3 years in the playoffs.  Now.. we have a dominant Post Threat and in a tough game playing 34 minutes... he gets 6 attempts??  What kind of world do we live in where dominant post threat gets 6 attempts and THJr gets 17?  Who is running the show?

BTW DS17... to look at what has happened with D8's touches.. it doesn't take Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, or John freakin Wooden to figure out.   Surely, your boy could have figured it out by now? I mean... he is the PG right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bankingitbig]

24 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't disagree.  I just want to see him get to the point where he can use his weapons.  Use Sap in the Midrange.  Use Dwight downlow.  There will always be some time for him to score... and maybe that's the part that takes time.  I was just watching Kobe muse and I had forgotten how he missed 4-5 shots in a row (airballs) against Utah in his first playoffs.  I don't think Kobe ever really learned how to use the weapons around him... but he was a 2.   IF Dennis continues to be a scoring PG, then maybe we need a Point 2 or a Point Foward to come in to help the rest of the team.  I noticed a lot last night that Baze brought the ball up and initiated the offense.  While that's not his strong suit, it did work.  Maybe there's an OG in the league that we can get (Tomas Satoransky) or maybe find a BU PG who can offer some real PGing skills (Jack)...

Maybe with the trouble that Satoransky is having in Washington... Maybe they would be willing to take a trade for him?  I think he may be able to work for us. 

 

Dennis is averaging 6.3 assists per game this season. Jack's career average for assists per game is 4.5..... You're delusional if you think Jack would be a better playmaker and would be better at running the offense. Also, I am sorry, but what weapons did Schröder have around him besides Millsap (who by the way scored over 30 last night)? Our wings aren't making shots. Before last night, the Hawks took the 7th highest percentage of wide open field goals, but we only ranked 21st in eFG% on them....

Edited December 20, 2016 by Bankingitbig

[Lurker]

There is pretty much nothing different that Dennis is doing that most of the rest of the league does.

The art of an unselfish PG that defers to being the 3rd or 4th option even if they aren't getting all of the assists (if they're dribble penetrating and then passing out of it, to not get the ball back) just isn't there anymore today.

And most of the time, Howard isn't as good of an option as people like to think that he is. Sorry, but this is for real. Take the glasses off on him. I don't always fully pay attention to games but when the Hawks actually DO try to go to him, he fumbles the ball around most of the time and it stops the flow of the offense. His post game was all athleticism, and that's gone now. Again, he's pretty much DeAndre Jordan, without as good defense.

And when Howard fumbles the ball around when he receives it, the Hawks just give up and ignore he's on the floor.

Howard can not create good offense. There are two players that can on the team (sometimes three with Hardaway Jr) consistently.

Today's NBA is a perimeter game, not a post game. The Hawks need a PNR defender more than a rim protector and rebounder.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Lurker

[Bankingitbig]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Sorry to kick over your sacred Cow DS17... however, the truth is most nights... Dwight has a great size and talent advantage on the guy he plays and I watch your sacred cow come up the court, see D8's outstretched hand and pull up another jumper.   You were awfully quiet when people were questioning how Dwight could be money against  the Raptors on Thursday Night and Only get 6 attempts on Friday Night against the Hornets.  BTW.. in that game, with 6 attempts, Dwight was shooting 67%... while Your sacred cow put up twice as many shots as Dwight in roughly the same amount of minutes played.   I know.. I know.. it's the coaches fault right??  Coach called the play to tell Dennis to ignore D8.  Coach told Dennis to ignore the fact that D8 dominated the night before.   Yeah... I remember hearing that same thing for the last 3 years in the playoffs.  Now.. we have a dominant Post Threat and in a tough game playing 34 minutes... he gets 6 attempts??  What kind of world do we live in where dominant post threat gets 6 attempts and THJr gets 17?  Who is running the show?

BTW DS17... to look at what has happened with D8's touches.. it doesn't take Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, or John freakin Wooden to figure out.   Surely, your boy could have figured it out by now? I mean... he is the PG right?

 

You make no sense.... You want Dennis to run the offense better and use his weapons... By giving the ball to Dwight Howard in the post? Are you kidding me? Dwight is not a good back-to-the-basket postup player. And he certainly doesn't pass out of the post like he should. I am seriously confused on how you think that would result in a better motion offense.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Bankingitbig

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Bankingitbig said:

You make no sense.... You want Dennis to run the offense better and use his weapons... By giving the ball to Dwight Howard in the post? Are you kidding me? Dwight is not a good back-to-the-basket postup player. And he certainly doesn't pass out of the post like he should. I am seriously confused on how you think that would result in a better motion offense.

yep. Howard does not pass out of the post so "playing through him" cannot be done. Playing through Millsap CAN be done and IS being done.

[Lurker]

Howard was not making shots in the post against Toronto, he was cleaning up on the offensive glass or receiving the ball without having to make a move, and it's rare that he does not have to make a move. If he has to make a move, he is NOT an efficient offensive player PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Lurker

[Lurker]

The offense has begun to come along. This isn't a good shooting team and isn't going to be but there are more smart threes that are being taken instead of the one pass on the perimeter and a shot three that we saw often. There has been much more of an attempt to get both shots at the rim and set shot threes on the perimeter that aren't stupid, quick threes.

The defense just isn't going to be good without Horford unless there are changes made but I know people are blinded to this problem. In today's game, which is more of a perimeter than an inside game, you need someone that can defend PNR/PNP more than a guy that is primarily a rim protector.

[Sothron]

31 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't disagree.  I just want to see him get to the point where he can use his weapons.  Use Sap in the Midrange.  Use Dwight downlow.  There will always be some time for him to score... and maybe that's the part that takes time.  I was just watching Kobe muse and I had forgotten how he missed 4-5 shots in a row (airballs) against Utah in his first playoffs.  I don't think Kobe ever really learned how to use the weapons around him... but he was a 2.   IF Dennis continues to be a scoring PG, then maybe we need a Point 2 or a Point Foward to come in to help the rest of the team.  I noticed a lot last night that Baze brought the ball up and initiated the offense.  While that's not his strong suit, it did work.  Maybe there's an OG in the league that we can get (Tomas Satoransky) or maybe find a BU PG who can offer some real PGing skills (Jack)...

Maybe with the trouble that Satoransky is having in Washington... Maybe they would be willing to take a trade for him?  I think he may be able to work for us. 

 

For those not old enough to remember Marbury, to bounce off Diesel's point here, I would compare Dennis to Irving up in Cleveland. He also is a shoot first PG that can get assists. The big difference is that Irving has a great playmaking SF in Lebron to help run the offense and get guys involved.

I agree with Diesel here that we need a point forward somewhere in the starting lineup. We already run our own motion offense which has a lot of passing from all five guys. We need another skilled passer on the wing to help keep things smooth and running.

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, Bankingitbig said:

Dennis is averaging 6.3 assists per game this season. Jack's career average for assists per game is 4.5..... You're delusional if you think Jack would be a better playmaker and would be better at running the offense. Also, I am sorry, but what weapons did Schröder have around him besides Millsap (who by the way scored over 30 last night)? Our wings aren't making shots. Before last night, the Hawks took the 7th highest percentage of wide open field goals, but we only ranked 21st in eFG% on them....

Did I say replace Dennis with Jack?  I'm saying replace Delaney with Jack.  While Jack may be a lot of bad things.. one of the good things that he is is a leader... lockerroom and floor leader.  It's like all the team that Derrick Fisher played for.  Sure there were guys there that was a whole lot more talented and fish could have been replaced.. however, when you ask guys who did their championship teams hold it together, they would tell you Fish.   Who is our Fish?

 

[Sothron]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Did I say replace Dennis with Jack?  I'm saying replace Delaney with Jack.  While Jack may be a lot of bad things.. one of the good things that he is is a leader... lockerroom and floor leader.  It's like all the team that Derrick Fisher played for.  Sure there were guys there that was a whole lot more talented and fish could have been replaced.. however, when you ask guys who did their championship teams hold it together, they would tell you Fish.   Who is our Fish?

 

I'd rather have Jack than Delaney. Delaney is simply not a NBA player.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Sothron said:

For those not old enough to remember Marbury, to bounce off Diesel's point here, I would compare Dennis to Irving up in Cleveland. He also is a shoot first PG that can get assists. The big difference is that Irving has a great playmaking SF in Lebron to help run the offense and get guys involved.

I agree with Diesel here that we need a point forward somewhere in the starting lineup. We already run our own motion offense which has a lot of passing from all five guys. We need another skilled passer on the wing to help keep things smooth and running.

Marbury was a very talented, incredibly selfish player who did not play D and was happy as long as he was dominating the ball.  Never won a damn thing in the league and every team that lost him immediately got better.  I think Dennis has some of the same skills but a very different mental makeup and commitment on D.  Dennis still has improvement to come to catch Marbury as a jump shooter but for those who didn't see him, Marbury was a guy who wanted the ball in his hands and would do one of three things:  (1) shoot the ball, (2) hold the ball until someone got open enough that he could pass it for an assist, or (3) glare at the guy who ended up with the ball and didn't give it to him to pound.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Howard was not making shots in the post against Toronto, he was cleaning up on the offensive glass or receiving the ball without having to make a move, and it's rare that he does not have to make a move. If he has to make a move, he is NOT an efficient offensive player PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Were we watching the same game?  Sure he had some offensive boards... and put backs but I watched him destroy Bebe and whoever else they put on him on Passes into the paint.   You can try to spin it anyway you want... but the facts are the facts...Our perimeter shooting and attacking the basket really hurt their switching defense.  The drive and Kick was open and Dwight dominated.  You act as if Dwight has to get the ball at the top of the key and make six moves before he can get to the bucket...  What in the hell.  Dwight has an advantage anytime we get him the ball.  However, if we decide that we would rather just keep using him as a decoy and pull up from 25' ... then we're wasting talent. 

 

 

[Lurker]

Just now, Diesel said:

Were we watching the same game?  Sure he had some offensive boards... and put backs but I watched him destroy Bebe and whoever else they put on him on Passes into the paint.   You can try to spin it anyway you want... but the facts are the facts...Our perimeter shooting and attacking the basket really hurt their switching defense.  The drive and Kick was open and Dwight dominated.  You act as if Dwight has to get the ball at the top of the key and make six moves before he can get to the bucket...  What in the hell.  Dwight has an advantage anytime we get him the ball.  However, if we decide that we would rather just keep using him as a decoy and pull up from 25' ... then we're wasting talent. 

 

 

Uhhh, the post moves he made were just one shot moves, once again, if he has to make more than two moves, he's not going to make the shot or he's going to get fouled and not make the free throw.

It also looks like he's seen as the fourth option by even the coach in what I saw.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Lucky may not have been the right word.  But the sentiment is that we were fortunate to be able to go back to the old comfortable shoes of isoball/Dennis playing off ball against that team.  When I said Lucky, my intention was to say that it won't work against most of the league.  It's comfortable but it's not how we have learned to win... nor is it where we need to go with Dwight.  If we showed up in the playoffs playing that way, teams would feast on us. 

Now... all that said, it was definitely a good win.  I was happy to see Sap find his stroke and Dennis play under control.  However, moving forward, I want us to learn to play better with all of our pieces. 

 

Ok, ok I'm putting my gun down.  Backing away ... I think we generally agree.  However, what do we always say come playoff time?  Man, the Hawks need a guy that can go out and put up a 15pt quarter or a guy that can get a shot when we need it.  Is Dennis not kinda doing that .. at least a little bit?

It's certainly not "how we learned to win" but the 'offense-by-system' stuff breaks down a lot during the playoffs when teams gameplan for you and only you (it's why 'Antoni teams don't win).

4 minutes ago, Sothron said:

For those not old enough to remember Marbury, to bounce off Diesel's point here, I would compare Dennis to Irving up in Cleveland. He also is a shoot first PG that can get assists. The big difference is that Irving has a great playmaking SF in Lebron to help run the offense and get guys involved.

I agree with Diesel here that we need a point forward somewhere in the starting lineup. We already run our own motion offense which has a lot of passing from all five guys. We need another skilled passer on the wing to help keep things smooth and running.

Totally agree.  It's why I always kinda kick around the idea that maybe we should take the Anderson guy off SAS's hands.  He's that kinda player although he lacks athleticism to be better.  An interesting thought.

[Guest]

Dennis is playing exactly how Bud wants him to play...

Quote

Korver said Budenholzer got on Schröder when the team was mired in a seven-game losing streak. Schröder responded.

“He is playing the best basketball of his career,” Korver said.

Schröder acknowledged the words from Budenholzer.

“I just tried to do everything I can to win games. He got on me. He said do this, do that, do this. I just try to compete out there.”

Does he still have a lot to learn? Yes

Is he making strides? yes.

[Sothron]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

Marbury was a very talented, incredibly selfish player who did not play D and was happy as long as he was dominating the ball.  Never won a damn thing in the league and every team that lost him immediately got better.  I think Dennis has some of the same skills but a very different mental makeup and commitment on D.  Dennis still has improvement to come to catch Marbury as a jump shooter but for those who didn't see him, Marbury was a guy who wanted the ball in his hands and would do one of three things:  (1) shoot the ball, (2) hold the ball until someone got open enough that he could pass it for an assist, or (3) glare at the guy who ended up with the ball and didn't give it to him to pound.

That's really only describing the NYK version. He played well for Minn and other points on the map before the end there. Dennis reminds me of him a great deal except for the mental issues and being better on defense. Marbury did make some All Star games so it wasn't like he was some scrub out there.

[Guest]

So Sap was the 3rd option on the last play to take the lead...

Quote

It had to be Millsap to hit the game-winner – even though he was the third option on his basket with 12 seconds left. Korver assisted with a pass to Millsap, who drained the 10-footer.

“It was a great play coach called up,” said Millsap, who finished with 30 points. “Went through our first option. Went through our second option. I was able to catch the ball, put it up to the rim and it went in.