Here's a question.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

38 minutes ago, AHF said:

I did not, but 2009-10 Josh would be the one to talk about.  That was the season he eliminated the 3pt shot and took a massively higher % of his shots near the basket (55% compared to a career average of 36.7%).  It was the closest to an efficient scorer that Smoove ever got (i.e., not close to Horf but in the range of SAR). 

21 PER, 9.3 WS, 16 points, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 block and 1.6 steals per game

Still saddens me that he didn't recognize that playing this way promoted his success and immediately went back to chucky mcchuckerson type shooting when Larry Drew took over and released him to go wild (7 3pta in 1999-00, 154  3pta in 2000-01).

The irony, is that in Bud's system, Josh would've been allowed to take 3s over midrange 2s.   If Bud let a fake shooter like Pero Antic take a ton of 3s, Josh would've been allowed to do the same, as long as he played defense and stayed in attack mode when need be.

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The irony, is that in Bud's system, Josh would've been allowed to take 3s over midrange 2s.   If Bud let a fake shooter like Pero Antic take a ton of 3s, Josh would've been allowed to do the same, as long as he played defense and stayed in attack mode when need be.

Given that Bud let Josh walk for nothing, I think it is pretty safe to say that Bud did not want to watch Josh shooting 200+ 3pters like he did under Drew.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Given that Bud let Josh walk for nothing, I think it is pretty safe to say that Bud did not want to watch Josh shooting 200+ 3pters like he did under Drew.

They wanted to maximize their cap space.  And Millsap was a better prospect that was on the board.  

But had Josh been retained, he would've been jacking up 3s like everyone else on the team.

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But had Josh been retained, he would've been jacking up 3s like everyone else on the team.

I'll agree to disagree.  I agree that Josh would have been encouraged to take 3's over long 2's but would Bud have put up with a massive amount of low % 3's from Josh?  I don't think so.

Bear in mind that Sap's high attempts were 3.0 per game at 35.6% and Al's was 3.1 per game at 34.4%.  Even the brutal shooting Pero took his 2.4 attempts at over 30% per game.

The season we let Josh go, he went on to shoot 3.4 per game at 26.4%. 

I don't see Bud letting that continue.  Bud knows an efg% of 38.6% sucks nuts and that (unlike Pero) no one respects Josh's jumper so it doesn't space the floor for others.  I can't tell you why teams continued to respect Pero's jumper but they did.  Maybe it was that spectacular one footed 3pt winner that left a good impression?

[Sothron]

I would put SAR on that list. Bud would have loved his IQ and low post play coupled with his high FT percentage.

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I would put SAR on that list. Bud would have loved his IQ and low post play coupled with his high FT percentage.

Who do you cut for him?  (Presumably two of Deke, Horford, and Sap)

I agree Bud would have loved him.

[Sothron]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Who do you cut for him?  (Presumably two of Deke, Horford, and Sap)

I agree Bud would have loved him.

I would start Sap at SF and go with Sap, SAR and Deke in the front court. Joe Johnson and Teague at PG.

I found out that Mrs. Sothron's favorite Hawk not named Nique was Jeff Teague. I was amazed as probably the rest of you.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I would put SAR on that list. Bud would have loved his IQ and low post play coupled with his high FT percentage.

Is SAR the last Hawk to score 50?

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

(1)  You'll see a theme here but Horford averaged 14 and 10 in 2009-10 and scored at a .594 TS%.  He was a vastly superior defender to any season Walker or Shareef had in Atlanta or any year of their career.  

Horford:  .594 TS%, 10.9 WS

Walker:  .474 TS% (OMG that is TS% not FG%), 0.2 WS (WOW that is a WS crater)

SAR:  .536 TS%, 7.2 WS (the lowest of his time in Atlanta actually due to his inefficient scoring in that 21/9 season you are referencing)

 

The problem here is that Horf was playing Center not PF.  In the year you speak of, Horf hit a total of 1 3 pt shot.  While taking a total of 1 3pt shot.   You can't call Horford a PF and use C TS% ... of course he was more efficient. 

Now, once you get into his PF years... He's pedestrain.   Compared to a Shareef, Walker, and even Kukoc.  Hell, at PF, Kukoc looks like a stretch 4 God. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Spud2Nique said:

Is SAR the last Hawk to score 50?

If I'm not mistaken, that distinction goes to Willie Burton

[AHF]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The problem here is that Horf was playing Center not PF.  In the year you speak of, Horf hit a total of 1 3 pt shot.  While taking a total of 1 3pt shot.   You can't call Horford a PF and use C TS% ... of course he was more efficient. 

Now, once you get into his PF years... He's pedestrain.   Compared to a Shareef, Walker, and even Kukoc.  Hell, at PF, Kukoc looks like a stretch 4 God. 

What are his PF years?  I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Horford was an elite midrange shooter in 2009-10 and strong rebounder.  Kukoc was washed up for the Hawks.  He had a nice stretch of games for us right after we got him but here are his two seasons in which he played at least one game in Atlanta:

11.1 points, 4.0 rebounds, 3.1 assists

10 points, 3.7 rebounds, 3.6 assists

His shooting % for both season in Atlanta combined are 44% FG%, 36% 3pt%.

Eh. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If I'm not mistaken, that distinction goes to Willie Burton

Burton scored 50 as a Hawk? I don't recall that..hmmm..

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

What are his PF years?  I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Horford was an elite midrange shooter in 2009-10 and strong rebounder.  Kukoc was washed up for the Hawks.  He had a nice stretch of games but averaged roughly 10 ppg the two seasons he played in Atlanta.

I would say when Bud came along and allowed him to play more outside.  For instance, up until 2013, Al had shot a total of 18 3 pt shots.  Antoine Walker put up 268 3 pt shots as a Hawk.  Yet, you want to compare Horf's best shooting efficiency with Walker's year... 268 3pt shots to 1 3 pt shot??

As a PF, Walker was a 20, 9.4rpg player. As a PF.  As a C, Horf cannot match that.   As a C, shooting most of his shots inside the 3 pt line, Horf was a more efficient shooter.. sure.  However, it's sad that when he started to shoot the same way that Walker shot, he couldn't rebound worth a damn.

 

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Spud2Nique said:

Burton scored 50 as a Hawk? I don't recall that..hmmm..

Maybe, I miss remembered that... But I know he was not a Heat... I thought he played with us against his old team the heat when he scored 50 something.  I remember it was amazing because he was a sorry joker.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I would say when Bud came along and allowed him to play more outside.  For instance, up until 2013, Al had shot a total of 18 3 pt shots.  Antoine Walker put up 268 3 pt shots as a Hawk.  Yet, you want to compare Horf's best shooting efficiency with Walker's year... 268 3pt shots to 1 3 pt shot??

As a PF, Walker was a 20, 9.4rpg player. As a PF.  As a C, Horf cannot match that.   As a C, shooting most of his shots inside the 3 pt line, Horf was a more efficient shooter.. sure.  However, it's sad that when he started to shoot the same way that Walker shot, he couldn't rebound worth a damn.

 

I'm a UK fan and rooted for Antoine Walker for years.  I think you are trolling when you bring him up.  You think shooting 5.1 3pt attempts on 31.7% is an asset???  Come on.  That is a liability.  He averaged 3.5 turnovers per game.  Talk about empty numbers.  

For rebounding, Walker averaged 13.6% TRB% his year with us.  Horford put up a 16.4% TRB% in 2009-10 but also put up TRB% (and per36 rebounding numbers) better than Walker's 13.6% 2 out of the 3 seasons with Bud.  Walker's numbers were inflated by playing 40.2 mpg with Atlanta during his brief time with the team.  No way Bud plays anyone >40 mpg and once you adjust for those huge minutes Horford looks even better than he already does.

And Walker did not defend worth a darn in Atlanta.  

Come on D.

[Guest]

You can't have a 'best  Hawks' team with Bud as coach and be adding guys like Harrington and Walker to that list - cared about one side of the ball only - that's not winning Hawks basketball.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Maybe, I miss remembered that... But I know he was not a Heat... I thought he played with us against his old team the heat when he scored 50 something.  I remember it was amazing because he was a sorry joker.

Ya wasn't he one pick ahead of Rumeal in the draft. I think the heat took him. I do remember a huge game from him but I didn't think it happened as a Hawk..can't remember tho.

[AHF]

Burton blew up for 53 for the Sixers back in 1994.  Career high outside of that was 33 points.

[Sothron]

SAR is still the last Hawk to go for 50 unless I'm missing someone.

[Diesel]

 

I would love to see Millsap just go nuts and put up 50.