Face Facts - It's been downhill since Ferry left

[macdaddy]

45 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

Again who brought in the bad shooters?  Baze was originally a Ferry guy.  Thabo was a Ferry guy.  Dennis is a Ferry guy.  Sap is a Ferry guy.  Moose is a Ferry guy.   So why is Bud getting the blame?  Who is the guy he brought in that is ruining our season?

It's who Bud didn't bring in.   Shooters.   We won 60 games mainly because we were the #2 3 point shooting team in the league.  Now we are literally scraping the bottom of the barrel in shooting.    It ain't complicated.   Our wings are embarrassingly bad offensively.   

This is the part I don't get.   I like Bud but he deserves the criticism for not addressing our huge problem at 2 and 3.   His solution was Baze and Thabo and that's been a disaster.  

[BigDog90]

4 hours ago, kg01 said:

It's gone downhill because of Ferry and his "flexible" contracts which left us with no Bird rights and his poor drafting.

I agree we need a real GM, not Chillcox, but his (and by extension Budz') failings as front officemen are not an indication that Ferry walked on water.

It's 2 separate things.

Finally somebody talking sense. I could imagine it's hard for him to build a team to win now then think about flexibility for the future. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Under Ferry our 3pt shooting was 37.1%, 36.3% and 38%.  In the seasons where Ferry wasn't setting the roster since he has been gone, we shot 35% and 34% (this year).

Reasons:

Losing coaches to other teams might be a problem.

Kyle had a historic year, he wasn't the same last year coming off the surgery nor this year.

Is it possible the 60 win season skewed some numbers.

We miss Pero, lololololol 

Dwight shouldnever shoot a 3

Mike Scott took a nose dive.

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, kg01 said:

It's gone downhill because of Ferry and his "flexible" contracts which left us with no Bird rights and his poor drafting.

I agree we need a real GM, not Chillcox, but his (and by extension Budz') failings as front officemen are not an indication that Ferry walked on water.

It's 2 separate things.

Ferry OFFERED Millsap a 4 year deal, he declined, not sure why he'd be blamed for that. Not sure about DMC (but I saw 1 article intimating that he was also offered a longer deal).  

Fans bitched when DMC was signed, the cry was at least it's only for 2 years. 

The 'lookback' glasses are fun. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ferry OFFERED Millsap a 4 year deal, he declined, not sure why he'd be blamed for that. Not sure about DMC (but I saw 1 article intimating that he was also offered a longer deal).  

Fans bitched when DMC was signed, the cry was at least it's only for 2 years. 

The 'lookback' glasses are fun. 

Hey shut up, you.  I invented Ferry-bashin'.  Don't lump me in with them other betas.

[thecampster]

5 hours ago, JackB1 said:

Bud should stick to doing what he does best...coach.  It's been painfully obvious the downhill path we've been on since Ferry has been gone.

So many questionable moves and now I don't know what to make of this current team.  We don't play defense....Howard plays with effort once every 5 games...

Bazemore is a huge diseaster....and now Ilyasova???  How could Bud give Bazemore that big contract???  I am at a loss.

I was never for Ferry's dismissal and this is what happens when you let stories get out of control. Things get said behind closed doors in business, they should stay there. I know the vast majority of us would panic if every sin (real or imagined) was lain bear for everyone else to view. I know my list of regrets when it comes to women are greater than most people's list of bad restaurant choices. I know most people have told jokes in private, or shared opinions with others that they would never want made public. The guy made a mistake. He got caught in a very awkward position reading something out loud that someone else wrote.  His dismissal was far greater than what was required and we have not been the same since. Sure we had a great record that year, but it was a team Ferry constructed. Bud has too much power and his insistence on his system over personnel is a greater crime (IMHO).

[HawkItus]

28 minutes ago, AHF said:

Under Ferry our 3pt shooting was 37.1%, 36.3% and 38%.  In the seasons where Ferry wasn't setting the roster since he has been gone, we shot 35% and 34% (this year).

Again who did Bud bring in that wasn't here when Ferry was here that is causing this issue?  I concede the shooting is worse.  But,  I also saw guys having career years under Bud and staff's tutelage.   I think issue is in the coaches we have lost, not any roster building. 

[HawkItus]

31 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

It's who Bud didn't bring in.   Shooters.   We won 60 games mainly because we were the #2 3 point shooting team in the league.  Now we are literally scraping the bottom of the barrel in shooting.    It ain't complicated.   Our wings are embarrassingly bad offensively.   

This is the part I don't get.   I like Bud but he deserves the criticism for not addressing our huge problem at 2 and 3.   His solution was Baze and Thabo and that's been a disaster.  

What wings did lose from that 60 win season though?  You are talking in circles.  JYD?  he has stunk it up in TO.   I do not understand your argument.   Thabo and Baze were on that 60 win team.

[AUhawksfan]

53 minutes ago, AHF said:

Under Ferry our 3pt shooting was 37.1%, 36.3% and 38%.  In the seasons where Ferry wasn't setting the roster since he has been gone, we shot 35% and 34% (this year).

I think you're giving Ferry too much credit here, a lot has changed since our 3pt shooting has gone down.

To me, Quinn and Atkinson being gone are the bigger reasons for that.

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, AUhawksfan said:

I think you're giving Ferry too much credit here, a lot has changed since our 3pt shooting has gone down.

To me, Quinn and Atkinson being gone are the bigger reasons for that.

Dealing Korver was a big hit to our 3pt shooting - he shot nearly 41% for us this year.  Dunleavy is the only other guy on our team with a good 3pt% who is shooting 2+ attempts per game.

Our volume shooters go from mediocre to sucky.  THJr is leading the way and he is at 35.2% which is not good.  At all.  

Don't think this isn't a compound effect.  The best 3pt shooters always get more attention so when you lose guys who were good 3pt shooters (last year's team had Korver 40%, Teague 40% who were replaced by inferior shooters in terms of volume/% combos and that was after losing DMC 39.5% the prior year).  

The better question than who we've lost is who have we added?  Malcom Delaney's 25%?  We had a bunch of 3pt shooters who could do a fine job when we were moving the ball and they deflected attention from eachother but we've gotten worse since Ferry left by losing guys who were shooting the ball well from range without adding a single guy of any significance.

Our shooting was fine to excellent the 3 years with Ferry and it is beyond terrible now.  It was 100% apparent we needed shooting help after last season and nothing of any significance was done other than waving goodbye to our Charman soft 34.4% 3pt shooting center (better than Schro, Baze, Thabo, Prince, Delaney, etc.) and adding one of the worst shooting guards in the entire league (Malcom in the middle).

 

 

[Watchman]

4 hours ago, HawkItus said:

2008–09	NBA	Eastern	4th	Southeast	2nd	47	35	.573	12	Won First Round (Heat) 4–3 Lost Conference Semifinals (Cavaliers) 4–0
2009–10	NBA	Eastern	3rd	Southeast	2nd	53	29	.646	6	Won First Round (Bucks) 4–3 Lost Conference Semifinals (Magic) 4–0	Jamal Crawford (SMOY)
2010–11	NBA	Eastern	5th	Southeast	3rd	44	38	.537	14	Won First Round (Magic) 4–2 Lost Conference Semifinals (Bulls) 4–2
2011–12	NBA	Eastern	5th	Southeast	2nd	40	26	.606	6	Lost First Round (Celtics) 4–2
2012–13	NBA	Eastern	6th	Southeast	2nd	44	38	.537	22	Lost First Round (Pacers) 4–2
2013–14	NBA	Eastern	8th	Southeast	4th	38	44	.463	16	Lost First Round (Pacers) 4–3
2014–15	NBA	Eastern	1st	Southeast	1st	60	22	.732	—	Won First Round (Nets) 4–2 Won Conference Semifinals (Wizards) 4–2 Lost Conference Finals (Cavaliers) 4–0	Mike Budenholzer (COY)
2015–16	NBA	Eastern	4th	Southeast	2nd	48	34	.585	—	Won First Round (Celtics) 4–2 Lost Conference Semifinals (Cavaliers) 4–0

Show me the regression

Unless we suddenly become decent, we won't win 48 this year.  That would be regression in most people's view.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, HawkItus said:

What wings did lose from that 60 win season though?  You are talking in circles.  JYD?  he has stunk it up in TO.   I do not understand your argument.   Thabo and Baze were on that 60 win team.

The point is that we had Korver, Demarre, Scott, and Teague all shooting decently from 3.   And Baze and Sap were good that year too.   But Korver got older, Thabo was never good, Demarre left, Scott got injured and went downhill, and Teague we replaced with one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league.   

That's the point, we let what was once an asset, and the most important one in today's nba, disappear either through trade, free agency, or general decline.   And we didn't replace any of that.   

You keep asking what wings did we lose?  but the question is why don't we have any wings that weren't here 3 years ago.   Just Timmy and some rooks.   None of which are providing much shooting.   

Dennis, Teague, Mack, Korver, DMC, Thabo, Baze - those were are primary 1-3 guys then

Dennis, Delaney, Baze, Tim, Thabo - are the primary ones now.   I guess you can include Dunleavy or Prince or Bembry

That's a big net loss of NBA talent and ability.   And more specifically shooting.   

 

[benhillboy]

Every GM has their faults.  But I rather ride with Ferry's aggressiveness and league-wide respect over whatever Budcox got going for them.  He was our poor-man's Ainge.  You're dishonest at best if you can't give the man some credit for being the architect of a team that pulled 60 wins out of its arse with the league's 4th lowest payroll.

Edited February 27, 2017 by benhillboy

[HawkItus]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

The point is that we had Korver, Demarre, Scott, and Teague all shooting decently from 3.   And Baze and Sap were good that year too.   But Korver got older, Thabo was never good, Demarre left, Scott got injured and went downhill, and Teague we replaced with one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league.   

That's the point, we let what was once an asset, and the most important one in today's nba, disappear either through trade, free agency, or general decline.   And we didn't replace any of that.   

You keep asking what wings did we lose?  but the question is why don't we have any wings that weren't here 3 years ago.   Just Timmy and some rooks.   None of which are providing much shooting.   

Dennis, Teague, Mack, Korver, DMC, Thabo, Baze - those were are primary 1-3 guys then

Dennis, Delaney, Baze, Tim, Thabo - are the primary ones now.   I guess you can include Dunleavy or Prince or Bembry

That's a big net loss of NBA talent and ability.   And more specifically shooting.   

 

You can't take these in a vacuum.  We know why Korver isn't here.  We know why DMC isn't here.   We know why Teague isn't here.   And honestly our 3 point shooting started going down the 2nd half of that 60 win season.  Abysmal in the playoffs.  Again last year it fell off in the second half and was abysmal in the playoffs.  Bud transitioned to something different this year.  Hasn't worked.  But, he isn't done.  Lets see what the plan is over the offseason.   My argument is that we were headed this way with Ferry.  The contracts he signed were wading water.   Who was the big fish he could of gotten?   The same ones we tried to trade for under Bud.  I think the blame is fairly placed on Bud, but to make it seem as if things would be better under Ferry is wishful thinking.   We caught the league by surprise in 2014/2015.   Enjoy the memories and face reality.  We hit our apex and are doing a soft rebuild.  Teague nor JYD were the answer.  Al wasn't the answer.     

 

I'm really starting to wonder if I get a different feed on Hawks games than everyone else.  I feel like maybe I get the "Alternative" feed because I absolutely don't agree with 90% of what other squawkers seem to see or observe.  It's really funny.

Edited February 27, 2017 by HawkItus

[AHF]

I like Bud as a coach a lot but his offense depends on perimeter shooting and we have sucked balls at it.  Ersan doesn't do much to change that trajectory.  It has to be a higher priority this offseason.

As an aside, this is not unexpected.  I was giving stats on our 3pt shooting very early this season and lost energy to track it game by game but we knew we had a problem coming into the year when our guards and wings to start the year were

Good Perimeter Shooter:

Korver (he can shoot)

Perimeter Shooters No One Respects:

Baze (he came down to earth in the second half last year and we knew he couldn't shoot like that first half this year - 29% after the AS last year and sub-34% this year)

THJr (bad 3pt shooter his first season in ATL and never a particularly good one even in college - has improved but still not very good)

Dennis (bad shooter - has actually really improved but still not very good)

Thabo (not a good shooter and low volume even in his best years).

Unknown:

Delaney (question mark without high confidence)

Prince (very questionable)

Bembry (huge red flag questionable)

[Peoriabird]

11 hours ago, JackB1 said:

Bud should stick to doing what he does best...coach.

If coaching is what Bud does best then I would hate to be his wife!

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

If coaching is what Bud does best then I would hate to be his wife!

I see what you did there, lol.

[Mdizzle5]

We might have Giannis if not for Ferry and his decisions.

I jest. Kinda but not really.

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mdizzle5 said:

We might have Giannis if not for Ferry and his decisions.

I jest. Kinda but not really.

 

 

I will always blame him for dragging LD on his Euro scouting tour then not renewing his contract, LD joining the Bucks and stealing Giannis - so I agree, thats on Ferry.

[Peoriabird]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I see what you did there, lol.

These guys still think that Bud is this superstar coach! LOL!