Dwight popping off at the mouth............

[Plainview1981]

20 hours ago, thecampster said:

I cannot believe I have to spell this out for you. If you do not consistently dump the ball into the post, even if its just to kick it back out, the defense can spread and play in the face of the wings. You dump the ball into the post because the defense must sag to offer help. This is fundamental basketball. This is 7th grade stuff. You play in to free up the wings. Just dumping the ball in 20 times a game, with 8-10 being shots and 8-10 being kicked back out to the point guard or a wing completely changes defensive rotations, spacing and lanes. 

I mean my God. I am not advocating Dwight shooting the ball 30 times a game or running the entire offense through him. That is the exact reverse of what we are doing now. I'm saying balance. You are making Dennis work like a mad man if you are expecting him to handle the ball and create on every play and you are certainly making the defense's job easier than a 240 shorty with 3 drinks in her.

Dwight shot 8.8% of the team shots. That's insane.  But you want other stats. Let's try this one.

Dwight's PER 23.9. His Opponent 15.2. Net +8.7 PER.

Dennis PER 17.8. His opponent 19.3. Net -1.5. 

Millsap PER 20.0. His Opponent 15.3. Net +4.7 PER.

Bazemore PER 11.7. His Opponent 15.3. Net -3.6 PER.

Hardaway PER 17.4. His Opponent 11.8. Net +5.6 PER.

 

Okay Hot...now you explain it to me like I'm stupid. Hardaway posts a +5.6 NET PER...9.2 higher than Baze, but it took Bazemore getting hurt for Timmy to start. Dwight and Paul routinely beat their own man on the floor but its Dennis leading the team in shots. Dennis is showing a negative net PER nightly, Dwight is +8.7 nightly but Dwight is the problem. Dwight is the one that needs to go?

Dennis has his hands on the ball too much. Too much is being put on him and he's shot hogging, pure and simple. Bud is the coach. There is no universe where Paul is seeing less shots per game than the point guard. There is no universe where a player is posting a +8.7 PER while only getting 8 shots a game. Do you understand how ludicrous that is?  That a player can statistically manhandle his opponent nightly without the ball in his hands? Some stats lie....but there comes a point where enough stats add up to truth and this is that point.

 

 

Dwight is a black hole. He doesn't pass the ball out and he doesn't have good skills of passing out if he draws attention. It seems like people make the same excuses for him no matter how often he fails. He doesn't get so many shots now because his athleticism is no longer good enough to make up for his faults. Outside of the fact that his post game is trash, you simply can't even count on him to hold onto passes. All he does now is stagnate offenses.  If Dwight wasn't so bad at everything other than dunks and garbage baskets he might get more shots. People said the same thing's about him in Houston that you're saying now. Houston is flying high a year later while the Hawks are sitting at home. The Dwight that averaged 20/13 is not coming back. I don't care what team you put him on. It's not happening. His athleticism has eroded and his interest is inconsistent. 

Lurker is right. 

Honestly, it's not 100% Dwight's fault. The NBA has changed a lot of the last 5 years. Dwight's ineffectiveness is a mix of his decline in athleticism, his lack of skills and an NBA game that has changed. If Dwight had developed his game over the years he would probably be able to overcome some of the changes in the NBA game. But he never got better. Players that rely on athletic ability and refuse to grow their game find themselves out of the league sooner.

If Dwight get's traded or leaves before he retires we will be hearing the same stuff about him.

[Guest]

I'm over the Dwight experiment.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/1/2017 at 3:20 PM, Kimsey said:

Howard was the 5th option from game 1 to game 88. You don't pay someone 25 million to be the 5th option.  Dwight needs to lose weight cause his body is uber stiff and he labors running. 

I heard him say yoga wasn't for him or whatever. That should be his regimen every morning. 

But that's Dwight's point.  You paid him all of that money, just to be the 5th option in the offense AND be benched in the 4th quarter of games, just because the coach believes the other guys give him better shooting and defense at the 5 ( which they didn't . . . not even Millsap, when he played the 5 ).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:34 PM, thecampster said:

I cannot believe I have to spell this out for you. If you do not consistently dump the ball into the post, even if its just to kick it back out, the defense can spread and play in the face of the wings. You dump the ball into the post because the defense must sag to offer help. This is fundamental basketball. This is 7th grade stuff. You play in to free up the wings. Just dumping the ball in 20 times a game, with 8-10 being shots and 8-10 being kicked back out to the point guard or a wing completely changes defensive rotations, spacing and lanes. 

I mean my God. I am not advocating Dwight shooting the ball 30 times a game or running the entire offense through him. That is the exact reverse of what we are doing now. I'm saying balance. You are making Dennis work like a mad man if you are expecting him to handle the ball and create on every play and you are certainly making the defense's job easier than a 240 shorty with 3 drinks in her.

Dwight shot 8.8% of the team shots. That's insane.  But you want other stats. Let's try this one.

Dwight's PER 23.9. His Opponent 15.2. Net +8.7 PER.

Dennis PER 17.8. His opponent 19.3. Net -1.5. 

Millsap PER 20.0. His Opponent 15.3. Net +4.7 PER.

Bazemore PER 11.7. His Opponent 15.3. Net -3.6 PER.

Hardaway PER 17.4. His Opponent 11.8. Net +5.6 PER.

 

Okay Hot...now you explain it to me like I'm stupid. Hardaway posts a +5.6 NET PER...9.2 higher than Baze, but it took Bazemore getting hurt for Timmy to start. Dwight and Paul routinely beat their own man on the floor but its Dennis leading the team in shots. Dennis is showing a negative net PER nightly, Dwight is +8.7 nightly but Dwight is the problem. Dwight is the one that needs to go?

Dennis has his hands on the ball too much. Too much is being put on him and he's shot hogging, pure and simple. Bud is the coach. There is no universe where Paul is seeing less shots per game than the point guard. There is no universe where a player is posting a +8.7 PER while only getting 8 shots a game. Do you understand how ludicrous that is?  That a player can statistically manhandle his opponent nightly without the ball in his hands? Some stats lie....but there comes a point where enough stats add up to truth and this is that point.

 

To your point, Dwight also routinely goes multiple possessions down the court, without touching the ball, unless he can get an offensive rebound.  That would frustrate anybody, even if you were playing a pickup basketball game.   There would be plenty of times when Dwight would have his man dang near sealed under the basket, wanting the ball, and his teammates didn't even look for him.

I personally don't have a problem with Dennis' usage.  He's the PG and probably the 2nd best offensive player on the team right now, if not the best offensive player.  This game is geared toward guys playing off of an Alpha Male scorer, and not balanced scoring.  

My pet peeve is the other people who have the green light to shoot the ball.  We had 8 people attempt at least 100 three point shots this year ( not including Korver ), due to the notion that a long 2 attempt is worse than a 3 ( even if you can't make the 3 ).   The problem, is that of those 8 guys, only 1 person ( Muscala ) shot over 40% and the rest of them didn't even shoot over 36% from 3.  

We have a bunch of inconsistent shooters on the team, yet, the offense is centered around shooting.  That's the problem.  Hot has even said this in the past, before we added Dwight.  That and rebounding were the two things that we both agreed on, that were a major problem with the Hawks, even going back to the Joe Johnson era.

But now, because Dwight is not a likable person overall, he takes the brunt of the blame, despite him doing exactly what people expected him to do this season.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/2/2017 at 6:25 PM, Hotlanta1981 said:

 

Dwight is a black hole. He doesn't pass the ball out and he doesn't have good skills of passing out if he draws attention. It seems like people make the same excuses for him no matter how often he fails. He doesn't get so many shots now because his athleticism is no longer good enough to make up for his faults. Outside of the fact that his post game is trash, you simply can't even count on him to hold onto passes. All he does now is stagnate offenses.  If Dwight wasn't so bad at everything other than dunks and garbage baskets he might get more shots. People said the same thing's about him in Houston that you're saying now. Houston is flying high a year later while the Hawks are sitting at home. The Dwight that averaged 20/13 is not coming back. I don't care what team you put him on. It's not happening. His athleticism has eroded and his interest is inconsistent. 

Lurker is right. 

Honestly, it's not 100% Dwight's fault. The NBA has changed a lot of the last 5 years. Dwight's ineffectiveness is a mix of his decline in athleticism, his lack of skills and an NBA game that has changed. If Dwight had developed his game over the years he would probably be able to overcome some of the changes in the NBA game. But he never got better. Players that rely on athletic ability and refuse to grow their game find themselves out of the league sooner.

If Dwight get's traded or leaves before he retires we will be hearing the same stuff about him.

But yet, somehow we were able to get things to work in Game 4, despite all of the things that Dwight can and can't do.

 

We all know that this guy is NOT a leader.  He's more of a frontrunner.  And the thing you have to do with guys like him, is keep him engaged.  He still is effective enough around the rim to be effective.  Even if you feed him and turn it over, is that any different than a Baze turnover or a Millsap 3 pointer that isn't going in 80% of the time?

To Diesel's point in the other thread, notice who got Dwight going offensively in this game.  It was Jose Calderon driving to the basket and looking to PASS instead of shoot.  When Dennis drives, he's always looking to shoot.  But Jose got Howard a few easy baskets around the rim.  Then Baze, instead of looking for his own shot, actually looked for Dwight at the rim . . twice on back to back lobs.

If Dwight is now Deandre Jordan lite, that still makes him a threat and a top 10 center in the league.  

In that 8 game stretch late in the year, when Millsap was out and the Hawks were losing a ton of games to bad teams, it wasn't because of Howard.  He was still a highly productive player.

 

16.3 ppg

13.3 rebs

2.5 asst

1.3 blks

1.1 stls

 

58% FG

58% FT ( which is great for him )

 

He wasn't the reason why we were losing to those bad teams.  He was doing his job.  Heck, in today's NBA, 16 & 13 are 3rd team All-NBA numbers at the center position.

Honestly, there's no way you can watch the Hawks this season, and act like one of the main problems with the team, was Dwight Howard.  Not with the piss poor play that our wings gave us this season.  Lurker routinely talked about the Hawks bad transition defense when Dwight was in the game . . . like the center is responsible for transition defense.   As someone who played basketball all throughout my life, I know that transition defense is the responsibility of the guards and the wings.  

You are taught in basic 3 on 2 drills on defense to force the ball handler to make a decision, and DO NOT let him get to the rim.  You either make him shoot off the dribble, or make him pass the ball.   But you have to pick him up and you do not let him beat you off the dribble.   If you can hold the ball handler up, that gives others a chance to get back, and you can set up your halfcourt defense.

Edited May 4, 2017 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Lurker]

It was absolutely because of Howard. Those stats are meaningless because they were losses.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/1/2017 at 3:20 PM, Kimsey said:

Howard was the 5th option from game 1 to game 88. You don't pay someone 25 million to be the 5th option.  Dwight needs to lose weight cause his body is uber stiff and he labors running. 

I heard him say yoga wasn't for him or whatever. That should be his regimen every morning. 

 

Hawks shot attempts per game during the regular season and their FG%

 

Schröder:  15.1 FGA - 45% FG - 34% 3FG . . . . . . . .17.9 ppg

Millsap:  14.2 FGA - 44% FG - 31% 3FG . . . . . . . . . 18.1 ppg

Hardaway Jr:  11.5 FGA - 46% FG - 36% 3FG . . . . . 14.5 ppg

Bazemore:  9.9 FGA - 41% FGA - 35% 3FG . . . . . . . 11.0 ppg

Ilyasova:  8.7 FGA - 41% FGA - 35% 3FG . . . . . . . . . 10.4 ppg

Howard:  8.3 FGA - 63% FGA - 0% 3FG . . . . . . . . . . 13.5 ppg

 

Hawks shot attempts per game during the playoffs and their FG%

 

Schröder:  18.3 FGA - 46% FG - 43% 3FA  . . . . . . . . 24.7 ppg

Millsap:  16.5 FGA - 51% FG - 18% 3FG . . . . . . . . . . 24.3 ppg

Hardaway Jr:  13.7 FGA - 33% FG - 26% 3FG . . . . . 12.8 ppg

Bazemore:  8.8 FGA - 40% FG - 29% 3FG . . . . . . . . 8.8 ppg

Prince:  8.7 FGA - 56% FG - 29% 3FG . . . . . . . . . . . 11.2 ppg

Howard:   6.0 FGA - 50% FG - 0% 3FG . . . . . . . . . .  8.0 ppg

 

So technically, Dwight has been the 6th option.  And considering that he was 5th in the league in offensive rebounding ( 2nd in OReb % at 15% ), he had to get 1 - 2 of those few shot attempts on his own.

[Lurker]

I've actually said that Howard started playing with more energy after Millsap got hurt.

Whoop dee freaking do. It was too freaking late. His antics after the all star break helped to put the Hawks in crisis mode because of his unwillingness to play hard and do what is needed of him on the offensive end. He stopped actually rolling hard to the basket and only cared about posting up and this helped to solo tank the offense.

He doesn't deserve to be forgiven because of him starting to play harder after Millsap's injury because if he comes out of the break playing hard, maybe the Hawks don't drop all of those games.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It was absolutely because of Howard. Those stats are meaningless because they were losses.

Of course.

When Dwight performs to ( and above ) the level people expect of him, the stats are meaningless because the Hawks lost . . . even if he wasn't the reason why they lost.

When Dwight performs to ( and below ) the level people expect of him, the stats are indicative of Dwight's decline as a player . . . even if he's not getting the ball.

 

 

[Lurker]

Maybe if Howard actually played hard out of the break, the Hawks would've won at least 3-4 more games. Most of their losses out of the break came because Howard decided he didn't give a flip.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Just now, Lurker said:

I've actually said that Howard started playing with more energy after Millsap got hurt.

Whoop dee freaking do. It was too freaking late. His antics after the all star break helped to put the Hawks in crisis mode because of his unwillingness to play hard and do what is needed of him on the offensive end. He stopped actually rolling hard to the basket and only cared about posting up and this helped to solo tank the offense.

He doesn't deserve to be forgiven because of him starting to play harder after Millsap's injury because if he comes out of the break playing hard, maybe the Hawks don't drop all of those games.

You were clowning Dwight all throughout that losing streak, despite him playing at a pretty high level.   And Dwight averaged 13 pgg - 12 rebs - 61% FG AFTER the All-Star break

And it wasn't Dwight's antics after the All-Star break that sent this team into a tailspin.  It was Bud's handling of Dennis' that started it.   He called himself making an example out of Dennis, by benching an entire game, and benching him for a quarter of the next game.  We dropped 2 games right after the ASG.   

[Lurker]

6 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

You were clowning Dwight all throughout that losing streak, despite him playing at a pretty high level.   And Dwight averaged 13 pgg - 12 rebs - 61% FG AFTER the All-Star break

And it wasn't Dwight's antics after the All-Star break that sent this team into a tailspin.  It was Bud's handling of Dennis' that started it.   He called himself making an example out of Dennis, by benching an entire game, and benching him for a quarter of the next game.  We dropped 2 games right after the ASG.   

Dwight doesn't deserve praise if its losses. It just shows how much his stats really matter.

But no, he started out after the break playing like he didn't care at all. You can't just look at stats, you have to look at his activity.

But that is all you care about looking at. STATS STATS STATS

Can't evaluate him by stats.

[Kimsey]

28 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Hawks shot attempts per game during the regular season and their FG%

 

Schröder:  15.1 FGA - 45% FG - 34% 3FG . . . . . . . .17.9 ppg

Millsap:  14.2 FGA - 44% FG - 31% 3FG . . . . . . . . . 18.1 ppg

Hardaway Jr:  11.5 FGA - 46% FG - 36% 3FG . . . . . 14.5 ppg

Bazemore:  9.9 FGA - 41% FGA - 35% 3FG . . . . . . . 11.0 ppg

Ilyasova:  8.7 FGA - 41% FGA - 35% 3FG . . . . . . . . . 10.4 ppg

Howard:  8.3 FGA - 63% FGA - 0% 3FG . . . . . . . . . . 13.5 ppg

 

Hawks shot attempts per game during the playoffs and their FG%

 

Schröder:  18.3 FGA - 46% FG - 43% 3FA  . . . . . . . . 24.7 ppg

Millsap:  16.5 FGA - 51% FG - 18% 3FG . . . . . . . . . . 24.3 ppg

Hardaway Jr:  13.7 FGA - 33% FG - 26% 3FG . . . . . 12.8 ppg

Bazemore:  8.8 FGA - 40% FG - 29% 3FG . . . . . . . . 8.8 ppg

Prince:  8.7 FGA - 56% FG - 29% 3FG . . . . . . . . . . . 11.2 ppg

Howard:   6.0 FGA - 50% FG - 0% 3FG . . . . . . . . . .  8.0 ppg

 

So technically, Dwight has been the 6th option.  And considering that he was 5th in the league in offensive rebounding ( 2nd in OReb % at 15% ), he had to get 1 - 2 of those few shot attempts on his own.

My original point is Howard, given the state of  inefficient scorers on this team needs to be a 3rd or 4th option most games. A 3.5 option if you will. 

But he has terrible hands, doesn't seal his man properly, and doesn't finish well at all. I agree with Howard that allowing Muscala to finish the game over him is reprehensible. Bud is so amorous with his late 2nd round and undrafted guys, it's shameful. 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Of course.

When Dwight performs to ( and above ) the level people expect of him, the stats are meaningless because the Hawks lost . . . even if he wasn't the reason why they lost.

When Dwight performs to ( and below ) the level people expect of him, the stats are indicative of Dwight's decline as a player . . . even if he's not getting the ball.

 

 

God love you for having the energy to argue with...well...u know

[Plainview1981]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But yet, somehow we were able to get things to work in Game 4, despite all of the things that Dwight can and can't do.

 

We all know that this guy is NOT a leader.  He's more of a frontrunner.  And the thing you have to do with guys like him, is keep him engaged.  He still is effective enough around the rim to be effective.  Even if you feed him and turn it over, is that any different than a Baze turnover or a Millsap 3 pointer that isn't going in 80% of the time?

To Diesel's point in the other thread, notice who got Dwight going offensively in this game.  It was Jose Calderon driving to the basket and looking to PASS instead of shoot.  When Dennis drives, he's always looking to shoot.  But Jose got Howard a few easy baskets around the rim.  Then Baze, instead of looking for his own shot, actually looked for Dwight at the rim . . twice on back to back lobs.

If Dwight is now Deandre Jordan lite, that still makes him a threat and a top 10 center in the league.  

In that 8 game stretch late in the year, when Millsap was out and the Hawks were losing a ton of games to bad teams, it wasn't because of Howard.  He was still a highly productive player.

 

16.3 ppg

13.3 rebs

2.5 asst

1.3 blks

1.1 stls

 

58% FG

58% FT ( which is great for him )

 

He wasn't the reason why we were losing to those bad teams.  He was doing his job.  Heck, in today's NBA, 16 & 13 are 3rd team All-NBA numbers at the center position.

Honestly, there's no way you can watch the Hawks this season, and act like one of the main problems with the team, was Dwight Howard.  Not with the piss poor play that our wings gave us this season.  Lurker routinely talked about the Hawks bad transition defense when Dwight was in the game . . . like the center is responsible for transition defense.   As someone who played basketball all throughout my life, I know that transition defense is the responsibility of the guards and the wings.  

You are taught in basic 3 on 2 drills on defense to force the ball handler to make a decision, and DO NOT let him get to the rim.  You either make him shoot off the dribble, or make him pass the ball.   But you have to pick him up and you do not let him beat you off the dribble.   If you can hold the ball handler up, that gives others a chance to get back, and you can set up your halfcourt defense.

1 Good game out of 6?

I mean, the argument isn't that Howard is useless.

If he would accept a reduced role there would be a better chance of things working out. There are some match ups in which his limitations will not show up as much. The problem is that he still expects to be treated like a big star. Another problem is that in many games he just seems like wants to be somewhere else. That kind of things rubs off on the rest of the team.

Does Howard put up some stats? Yeah, but there are plenty of players that have put up some stats but their negatives outweigh their positives. Dwight is a selfish player. Always has been and always will be. In his vents since the series with Washington ended it has been me me me with him. That's how he is.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Dwight doesn't deserve praise if its losses. It just shows how much his stats really matter.

But no, he started out after the break playing like he didn't care at all. You can't just look at stats, you have to look at his activity.

But that is all you care about looking at. STATS STATS STATS

Can't evaluate him by stats.

Since you hate stats, here's a stat for you.

The Hawks shot a blistering 34.1% from the 3 point line, ranking them 23rd in the league.  This despite taking 26.1 threes per game, ranking us 15th in the league.

League average is 35.8%.

So if the Hawks aren't really good at playing the "pace and space" style ( 27th in the league offensively ), how do you think we won games?

 

Defense - #4 in the league ( #2 in opponent turnover percentage )

Offensive rebounding - #15 in the league ( and this is with having the #5 offensive rebounder in the NBA . . and we're still only 15th )

 

And what does the guy that you say is a "system killer" do best?

Hmmmmm

 

[Lurker]

28 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Since you hate stats, here's a stat for you.

The Hawks shot a blistering 34.1% from the 3 point line, ranking them 23rd in the league.  This despite taking 26.1 threes per game, ranking us 15th in the league.

League average is 35.8%.

So if the Hawks aren't really good at playing the "pace and space" style ( 27th in the league offensively ), how do you think we won games?

 

Defense - #4 in the league ( #2 in opponent turnover percentage )

Offensive rebounding - #15 in the league ( and this is with having the #5 offensive rebounder in the NBA . . and we're still only 15th )

 

And what does the guy that you say is a "system killer" do best?

Hmmmmm

 

He only grabs rebounds because he is big, and they never turn into actual points.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

He only grabs rebounds because he is big, and they never turn into actual points.

Why do you say things like this?  You are telling me that a 6'10'' guy who grabs offensive rebounds in the paint "never" turns them into actual points either via put backs or free throws?  Please.

[Blunt91]

Howard will probably come back next season.  If he is not playing up to par they will probably find a way to get rid of him during the trade deadline.   The Hawk players should have a voluntary team practices during the summer, because they still haven't gelled, especially Dennis and Dwight.

[thecampster]

12 hours ago, Lurker said:

It was absolutely because of Howard. Those stats are meaningless because they were losses.

OMFG the hate is real with this one.  Read his post. It is fundamental basketball explained.  If the core of the offense is long shots by bad shooters, that leads to long rebounds and transition baskets by the other team. If the center is doing his job, guarding the rim, then he should have no part in transition defense.