Dwight popping off at the mouth............

[thecampster]

63.3% shooting, 12.7 reb, 13.5 ppg.....8.3 FGA/g.

 

Look, you guys can talk about eye tests, looking stiff, any damned thing you want. The guy shot 63.3% from the field on 613 total shot attempts. 1/2 of those were put back attempts or ally-oops.  Kent Bazemore, Tim Hardaway had 1633 combined shot attempts. 41 and 45% respectively.  

I want this to sink in.  Bazemore and THj had over 1000 more collective shot attempts while shooting 20% less from the field.  Dennis and Paul had a collective 2186 shot attempts. Dennis...your point guard had 240 more shot attempts than your all star PF and 600 more shot attempts than your 63% shooting center. Collectively they shot 1573 more shots than your highest paid player while shooting 18% lower from the field. Come on...intellectual honesty. Can you win giving 250% more shots to players who are 18% less effective?

Let me make this as scary as I can. While shooting a collective 19% lower from the field, your 4 other starters shot 2593 more shots than Dwight. I'd be "pissed" too. Dwight shot 19% higher FG% but took 8.8% of the total team shots. Dennis Schröder, 17.5%.  

Every member of this year's Hawks shot under 50% from the field except Moose (50.4%....helped over 50% by a great start in the first 10 games). If I was shooting a 13% higher FG% than any other member of the team and 20% higher than the collective team % but only get 4-5 non self-manufactured shots a game I'd be screaming in the locker room and the press. I honestly think Dwight is handling himself like a pansy and taking it like a little girl. That Bud didn't rework the offense to use the big to free up others is ignorance. He shot 20% higher from the field than the rest of the entire team. This is on Bud.....period.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

If Howard wants out, would y'all send him to TOR for their C (who's name I won't venture to spell) +?

Hell yes.  I'd definitely take Jonas V.

[marco102]

19 hours ago, Wurider05 said:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2706867-dwight-howard-vents-about-benching-vs-wizards

 

The problem I had is that dude has been in the league for over a decade and they knew his abilities.  In  my opinion he was solid for us. Maybe Bud and the coaches can work with him in the offseason. Hell he might come back with a 3 point shot. It couldn''t hurt LOL!!!

I believe this article is referencing the Hawks exit interviews on Saturday.  Dwight was not saying he was pissed at the organization.  He was saying he was pissed off because the team lost and wished he could contribute more.  He did have piss poor bodily language during the interview which I attribute to him being upset about the loss. 

At this point, Dwight needs to get whatever ails his back fixed or just except that he'll have a reduced roll. Bud is not trying to pacify Dwight or his ego.  

[Plainview1981]

2 minutes ago, thecampster said:

63.3% shooting, 12.7 reb, 13.5 ppg.....8.3 FGA/g.

 

Look, you guys can talk about eye tests, looking stiff, any damned thing you want. The guy shot 63.3% from the field on 613 total shot attempts. 1/2 of those were put back attempts or ally-oops.  Kent Bazemore, Tim Hardaway had 1633 combined shot attempts. 41 and 45% respectively.  

I want this to sink in.  Bazemore and THj had over 1000 more collective shot attempts while shooting 20% less from the field.  Dennis and Paul had a collective 2186 shot attempts. Dennis...your point guard had 240 more shot attempts than your all star PF and 600 more shot attempts than your 63% shooting center. Collectively they shot 1573 more shots than your highest paid player while shooting 18% lower from the field. Come on...intellectual honesty. Can you win giving 250% more shots to players who are 18% less effective?

Let me make this as scary as I can. While shooting a collective 19% lower from the field, your 4 other starters shot 2593 more shots than Dwight. I'd be "pissed" too. Dwight shot 19% higher FG% but took 8.8% of the total team shots. Dennis Schröder, 17.5%.  

Every member of this year's Hawks shot under 50% from the field except Moose (50.4%....helped over 50% by a great start in the first 10 games). If I was shooting a 13% higher FG% than any other member of the team and 20% higher than the collective team % but only get 4-5 non self-manufactured shots a game I'd be screaming in the locker room and the press. I honestly think Dwight is handling himself like a pansy and taking it like a little girl. That Bud didn't rework the offense to use the big to free up others is ignorance. He shot 20% higher from the field than the rest of the entire team. This is on Bud.....period.

Who cares about his FG percentage? His terrible free throw shooting does a lot to offset that anyway. 

He doesn't make his teammates better. How many teams have to run him off before people understand that his negatives far outweigh his positives? He is barely even a decent shot blocker at this point.

This team was worse with him this year than it was last year. Worse than the win/loss record suggest when you realize that the Hawks got blown out in nearly half of their losses.

The Dwight defenders have NOTHING other than FG% and rebounds. Those things didn't get the Hawks more wins this year.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Hell yes.  I'd definitely take Jonas V.

Why didn't you spell it out?  Ha.

And yeah, he'd probably welcome a change of scenery and an upgrade in coaching/role.  He's sorely underused in TOR and their Lowry's turn/Derozan's turn, somebody hurl a 3 and obtw get Jonas a touch "offense".

[marco102]

I believe a good cheap back up for Howard next year will be Festus Ezeli.   He can rebound and block shots. He's coming off knee surgery so he'll be cheap.  Give him a cheap two year prove it deal and hope his knees hold up.

[Lurker]

Sigh...do I have to do what I've done at AJC again regarding Howard?

Stats like FG% can be deceiving at times, and with Howard, its deceiving. He is a terrible low post offensive player, terrible.

Any touch by Howard in the post is a mistake even if he's making the shots. If he's making them, the offense is still stagnant because he can't pass and the guys don't move off the ball when he has it in the post because they think "What is the d**n point?" 

[Lurker]

The Howard of today is basically DeAndre Jordan lite, without the ability to defend as well outside. He's regressed to that and its his fault.

[Kimsey]

Howard was the 5th option from game 1 to game 88. You don't pay someone 25 million to be the 5th option.  Dwight needs to lose weight cause his body is uber stiff and he labors running. 

I heard him say yoga wasn't for him or whatever. That should be his regimen every morning. 

[Vol4ever]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Unfortunately . . . Dwight is RIGHT.

It's not even about Dwight being a focal point.  It's about him being able to have an impact on a game. even at the end.  When you're giving crunch time minutes to Moose and running out Bazemore at the 3 ( a position he's ALWAYS struggled in ), but Dwight is sitting on the bench, that's cause for concern.  

The fan base has questioned Bud's rotations all year.  We've questioned why the rookies, who seem like they do have some talent, weren't getting much burn.  So when Dwight ( the highest paid player on the team, I may add ), can't get run in the 4th quarter, I'd be pissed too.

Dwight was, and still is, a top 10 center in the NBA.  The fact that the Hawks couldn't find a way to have him on the floor in the 4th quarter during the playoffs, is mind boggling.

 

I'm a Bud supporter, but he has to take the brunt of the blame for how this season went, and how players were used.  If your precious "system" doesn't fit the player ( or the team, for that matter ), tweak the system to get the most out of your players.  Game 4 should've been the blueprint for how this team should play.  But somehow, we weren't able to duplicate that gameplan.

Agree 110% ^^^^^^

[benhillboy]

I'm growing tired of being a Hawks fan, bruh.  This sh@t is trying.  Real franchises don't fool with Dwight Howard types, on or off the floor.  I'm done talking about him.

Edited May 1, 2017 by benhillboy

[Lurker]

We've had this story/issue time and time again with better passers than Dennis. So why do people think that this could get better with better passing inside to Dwight or more of a concentration on it?

How many more times does Dwight need to get ran off of a team before people realize that it's him, and not the team or other players?

Seriously. And I realize that there are some issues with Dennis, but since Orlando we've had the same pattern manifest itself with EVERYONE eventually with Dwight, including guys that are good passers, like Nash. He gets on the team, and because he's unhappy with his touches, he starts to pout and sulk about it and the team gets worse. And yes, it eventually happened with Houston too, it just took a couple of seasons.

The point in which I think it happened here has already come and gone. I think it happened at the break. It was like Dwight came out and took an extra two weeks off after the break. He wasn't getting to get post touches, so instead of actually doing what is NEEDED for the offense to work well, he pouted, sulked, and helped solo tank the offense by not trying hard on what he NEEDS to do.

YES, Dwight started to try hard after that, but here's the catch, it was too freaking late because Millsap got hurt. It's stuff that is not as visible to casuals that y'all are letting zoom over your head.

It's really telling when two players, including a veteran of this league (I'm talking about Millsap) choose to ignore Dwight and play PNR while he's "posting", which results in Millsap turning the ball over. Most of the team has lost all of their trust in him.

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

Who cares about his FG percentage? His terrible free throw shooting does a lot to offset that anyway. 

He doesn't make his teammates better. How many teams have to run him off before people understand that his negatives far outweigh his positives? He is barely even a decent shot blocker at this point.

This team was worse with him this year than it was last year. Worse than the win/loss record suggest when you realize that the Hawks got blown out in nearly half of their losses.

The Dwight defenders have NOTHING other than FG% and rebounds. Those things didn't get the Hawks more wins this year.

I cannot believe I have to spell this out for you. If you do not consistently dump the ball into the post, even if its just to kick it back out, the defense can spread and play in the face of the wings. You dump the ball into the post because the defense must sag to offer help. This is fundamental basketball. This is 7th grade stuff. You play in to free up the wings. Just dumping the ball in 20 times a game, with 8-10 being shots and 8-10 being kicked back out to the point guard or a wing completely changes defensive rotations, spacing and lanes. 

I mean my God. I am not advocating Dwight shooting the ball 30 times a game or running the entire offense through him. That is the exact reverse of what we are doing now. I'm saying balance. You are making Dennis work like a mad man if you are expecting him to handle the ball and create on every play and you are certainly making the defense's job easier than a 240 shorty with 3 drinks in her.

Dwight shot 8.8% of the team shots. That's insane.  But you want other stats. Let's try this one.

Dwight's PER 23.9. His Opponent 15.2. Net +8.7 PER.

Dennis PER 17.8. His opponent 19.3. Net -1.5. 

Millsap PER 20.0. His Opponent 15.3. Net +4.7 PER.

Bazemore PER 11.7. His Opponent 15.3. Net -3.6 PER.

Hardaway PER 17.4. His Opponent 11.8. Net +5.6 PER.

 

Okay Hot...now you explain it to me like I'm stupid. Hardaway posts a +5.6 NET PER...9.2 higher than Baze, but it took Bazemore getting hurt for Timmy to start. Dwight and Paul routinely beat their own man on the floor but its Dennis leading the team in shots. Dennis is showing a negative net PER nightly, Dwight is +8.7 nightly but Dwight is the problem. Dwight is the one that needs to go?

Dennis has his hands on the ball too much. Too much is being put on him and he's shot hogging, pure and simple. Bud is the coach. There is no universe where Paul is seeing less shots per game than the point guard. There is no universe where a player is posting a +8.7 PER while only getting 8 shots a game. Do you understand how ludicrous that is?  That a player can statistically manhandle his opponent nightly without the ball in his hands? Some stats lie....but there comes a point where enough stats add up to truth and this is that point.

 

[Lurker]

I suppose it also needs to be spelled out to you that Dwight one on one in the post does not work now and only did back then due to previous athleticism that he used to have and doesn't now.

It doesn't work even if he makes the shots. It simply doesn't. It has a history of throwing off the rest of the offense. There is a very good reason for the better record with Dwight not playing at all and otherwise starters playing and its because the offense flows much better with Dwight gone, even with a mistake prone PG. Same as there is a very good reason for a comically bad record with Millsap gone, and its because the wings don't feel like they can play off of Howard because Howard is a bad passer. Bad movement off the ball with Howard/Ilyasova because wings feel "What is the d**n point?" And mixed results with Howard in the post. Sometimes he actually makes the shots, and sometimes he turns the ball over or bricks shots right at the rim.

Before we cry about game 4 being the best way for the Hawks to play, while Howard made a couple post shots, he was still just 6-14 and most of his shots came off of an assist. Howard in the post in most cases is going to be a mistake even if the possession results in a basket or foul.

[Lurker]

There are things you just can't look at with stats and you can't look at Howard through any stats. The stats have to be thrown away with him, totally.

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There are things you just can't look at with stats and you can't look at Howard through any stats. The stats have to be thrown away with him, totally.

I totally get saying basic fg% doesn't get you a complete picture but that is a call for more data to get a more fulsome picture not ignoring all data.

[Lurker]

Some exploratory stats...

So...you think Howard in the post more is a good idea? Here are some stats:

Playoff post ups: 1.07 PPP (25.5% frequency which is actually a little more than thought, and 21.4% TO, I only remember 1 or 2 in which were a 3 seconds, but remember, I saw none of game 1)
Regular season: 0.84 PPP (28.8% frequency and 23.9% TO) A 47.9% FG would still lead the team, but its not near as great as people think, with the turnovers factored in and another factor being the team has shown they can't play off of him effectively. If it works for Howard it still throws the offense off.

That's not great. Now let's look at PNR ball handler stats for Schröder:

Playoffs: 1.04 PPP (50.4% frequency and 8.7% TO, good efficiency)
Regular season: 0.84 PPP (50.5% frequency and 16% TO, average efficiency)

Hang on a minute, something is missing here, if a guy is really that great of an offensive option in the post, they should have a higher PPP with post ups because those kind of plays are so close to the basket. It shouldn't make sense for a big to have a similar PPP in the post to a guard that had some ugly stretches.

It doesn't mean Howard in the post can't be used, but we almost always have this case: Unless he can just catch and go up with the ball, if you give him the ball and let him post up, it's probably going to be a wasted possession or throw the rest of the offense off even if he makes the shot(s).

[AHF]

Just now, Lurker said:

Some exploratory stats...

So...you think Howard in the post more is a good idea? Here are some stats:

Playoff post ups: 1.07 PPP (25.5% frequency which is actually a little more than thought, and 21.4% TO, I only remember 1 or 2 in which were a 3 seconds, but remember, I saw none of game 1)
Regular season: 0.84 PPP (28.8% frequency and 23.9% TO) A 47.9% FG would still lead the team, but its not near as great as people think, with the turnovers factored in and another factor being the team has shown they can't play off of him effectively. If it works for Howard it still throws the offense off.

That's not great. Now let's look at PNR ball handler stats for Schröder:

Playoffs: 1.04 PPP (50.4% frequency and 8.7% TO, good efficiency)
Regular season: 0.84 PPP (50.5% frequency and 16% TO, average efficiency)

Hang on a minute, something is missing here, if a guy is really that great of an offensive option in the post, they should have a higher PPP with post ups because those kind of plays are so close to the basket. It shouldn't make sense for a big to have a similar PPP in the post to a guard that had some ugly stretches.

It doesn't mean Howard in the post can't be used, but we almost always have this case: Unless he can just catch and go up with the ball, if you give him the ball and let him post up, it's probably going to be a wasted possession or throw the rest of the offense off even if he makes the shot(s).

I actually don't think Dwight in the post is a good option.  I think saying "ignore all stats with him because I really don't like him and some stats are good for him" is not a good outlook.  Stats show Millsap has been better on posts for years.

[Bankingitbig]

10 hours ago, thecampster said:

Dwight shot 8.8% of the team shots. That's insane.  But you want other stats. Let's try this one.

Dwight's PER 23.9. His Opponent 15.2. Net +8.7 PER.

Dennis PER 17.8. His opponent 19.3. Net -1.5. 

Millsap PER 20.0. His Opponent 15.3. Net +4.7 PER.

Bazemore PER 11.7. His Opponent 15.3. Net -3.6 PER.

Hardaway PER 17.4. His Opponent 11.8. Net +5.6 PER.

 

 

Just curious where you got these stats? Not saying they are wrong, just genuinely curious especially where you can see opponent PER. Basketball Reference has Dwight's 2016-2017 regular season PER at 20.8 for example.

[AHF]

9 hours ago, Bankingitbig said:

Just curious where you got these stats? Not saying they are wrong, just genuinely curious especially where you can see opponent PER. Basketball Reference has Dwight's 2016-2017 regular season PER at 20.8 for example.

http://www.82games.com/1617/16ATL20.HTM#bypos

Not sure what the difference is between those PER numbers and the ones posted by basketball reference.