The Problem is Dennis.

[Lurker]

This honestly reached an incredible level a while ago.... Let me start by repeating what I (and some others) have said:

Yes, Chris Paul is a pass first PG. No, Chris Paul does not fit with Dwight Howard. Honestly, I'm not sure who as a main ballhandler or PG fits with Dwight Howard today.  The reason why Chris Paul does not fit with Dwight Howard is because he's very headstrong and Howard is a softie mind wise. The first moment Paul spewed off against Howard on the floor (and he would a lot because of the problems that Howard has), Howard would immediately fume and go into that bad shell that he has. Howard does not fit with headstrong main ballhandlers/PGs and that describes most of the NBA today.

Let me repeat what I said earlier in the thread. Guys got what were "their" shots. I don't listen to the announcers as much as I used to, but Bob has said that the three from the wing was THJ's "spot" a couple of times when I was listening, and I found that the corner also was. And its not that he wasn't passed to. He was passed to plenty in the regular season. Same for the playoffs, he got plenty of shots in that "spot".

When is the point in which we start blaming the player? It is not on the point guard to "will" that shot in. Once it's in the other players hands, its on them to make the shot.

I bet there was some times in which Bud probably wanted to say what I heard Cal say in Kentucky's first game vs Tennessee earlier this year and it'd apply to both of his guards (don't mean Kent). "Young guys want to do all of these cool stepbacks and the like, but they need to realize we need to get the ball inside more". But, I honestly don't think he really cares about Howard not getting involved as much. He knows that his post offense is not really that great of an option (which is why it almost always only appears when he's almost out of options on offense or its a blowout) and he sees him more as like his Bogut (outside of Milwaukee and without the passing) or his Chandler.

That's why I've said that while Teague instead of Schröder would have probably helped get an extra couple of wins, we likely would not have still not seen what we saw when Horford was here instead of Howard. We would have see the democratic offense...but instead of it being all 5 guys, it being 4 guys with Teague mainly PNR'ing with Millsap and Howard derelegated to the 4th/5th option at all times on the court.

[Lurker]

And as for the series, it pretty much was likely Teague=/=Schröder. If it was Teague, Hawks still lose the series in 6.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

This honestly reached an incredible level a while ago.... Let me start by repeating what I (and some others) have said:

Yes, Chris Paul is a pass first PG. No, Chris Paul does not fit with Dwight Howard. Honestly, I'm not sure who as a main ballhandler or PG fits with Dwight Howard today.  The reason why Chris Paul does not fit with Dwight Howard is because he's very headstrong and Howard is a softie mind wise. The first moment Paul spewed off against Howard on the floor (and he would a lot because of the problems that Howard has), Howard would immediately fume and go into that bad shell that he has. Howard does not fit with headstrong main ballhandlers/PGs and that describes most of the NBA today.

Let me repeat what I said earlier in the thread. Guys got what were "their" shots. I don't listen to the announcers as much as I used to, but Bob has said that the three from the wing was THJ's "spot" a couple of times when I was listening, and I found that the corner also was. And its not that he wasn't passed to. He was passed to plenty in the regular season. Same for the playoffs, he got plenty of shots in that "spot".

When is the point in which we start blaming the player? It is not on the point guard to "will" that shot in. Once it's in the other players hands, its on them to make the shot.

I bet there was some times in which Bud probably wanted to say what I heard Cal say in Kentucky's first game vs Tennessee earlier this year and it'd apply to both of his guards (don't mean Kent). "Young guys want to do all of these cool stepbacks and the like, but they need to realize we need to get the ball inside more". But, I honestly don't think he really cares about Howard not getting involved as much. He knows that his post offense is not really that great of an option (which is why it almost always only appears when he's almost out of options on offense or its a blowout) and he sees him more as like his Bogut (outside of Milwaukee and without the passing) or his Chandler.

That's why I've said that while Teague instead of Schröder would have probably helped get an extra couple of wins, we likely would not have still not seen what we saw when Horford was here instead of Howard. We would have see the democratic offense...but instead of it being all 5 guys, it being 4 guys with Teague mainly PNR'ing with Millsap and Howard derelegated to the 4th/5th option at all times on the court.

As usual...Nothing about Millsap hitting only 17% of his 3 point shot attempts and Muscala missing all of his attempts the entire playoffs.

[Lurker]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

As usual...Nothing about Millsap hitting only 17% of his 3 point shot attempts and Muscala missing all of his attempts the entire playoffs.

I already also said in a different post that Millsap's shot disappeared after the 60 win season and I got laughed at...very hard by Diesel. And no, a shot in the 31's% is not enough from downtown to be respected.

Also gave my opinion on the going small issue. I don't think Bud ever tried what I said was most likely going to eventually need to happen. He went to just doing Millsap at C too late and never tried switching every screen. He also probably should have been playing Sefolosha.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

I can agree with your second statement.  Dennis needs tutoring from a guy like Calderon who doesn't have the skills to score that Dennis has but he does know how to run an offense.  Dennis doesn't run the offense, the offense that we called Budball disappears and guys go into isoball.  Somebody asked why doesn't it go back when Dennis goes to the bench? Why is it that when I start a feeding frenzy when I'm chumming do fish go after any bait I throw out there.  Players don't change that quickly, nor does Dennis go out that much.  

I don't think that will help. Dennis will never be a true PG. We need to get an off guard with PG skills to play with him or a true PG with size to guard SGs. Someone like Lonzo Ball or Michael Porter Jr. But those guys are top three picks. We seriously need a franchise player young or in his prime. That's what we lack. 

 

While I like Dennis far more than you do. I do see your point. I do not think he's a lead PG for a contender where they lack a superstar. Now, he can be Kyrie Irving like and win a title with a LeBron. But he's not Steph Curry, CP3 and he's not Jason Kidd. Before people talk about CP3, he never had the right personnel grouping and when he did, injuries to his cast rained on his parade. Sorry but you gotta be good in the half court as good as on the full court. No one wants to admit it but LAC had one of the best analytic squads for three years in the NBA and that was with injuries but you gotta execute in the half court aside from PnRs and their chemistry is always meh.

 

Dennis. He's a nice PG. But he's not a game changer. Doesn't make others better. Frankly, without Sap, this team will be terrible with him as the best player. But I like him. Smart. Good work ethic. Learns quickly. Fits what Bud likes to a degree. I honestly think Bud wants a Chauncey Billups type of PG but there isn't one out there. Maybe Kris Dunn can develop into that. 

I think we just need to quick rebuild. Keep Prince, Bembry, Dennis and Tim. I don't care what we do to Bazemore or Dwight. They just aren't good assets for trade and they aren't impactful on the court. Get younger depth who has two way potential and shooting skills. 

[DBac]

I'm very open to "selling high" on Dennis. I love Dennis and his attitude. He's a killer on the court, he's not afraid to mix it up with the stars of this league. He's also by far the best trade chip on the roster. If you look at the recent drafts, Dennis would be a very nice outcome to drafting a young point guard. However, his play-style does not lend itself to winning. He's a zero on defense, doesn't do a good job of creating for others on offense, and doesn't get to the line (aka we are at the will of his somewhat inconsistent shooting ability). So if we moved him to collect some lottery assets, I would not be torn up one bit (Especially considering I prefer bigger point guards in the first place). That said, I still like his mentality and would not be mad if we moved forward with him. I would like to see him get stronger. That should make him better on both ends of the floor. Right now he's simply too weak to score through contact like an Isaiah Thomas, James Harden. And he can be bullied by bigger players on defense, negating his great wingspan. I have very little hope that he'll become a creator, though. Part of that mentality that I love is also a weakness, as he is overly concerned with his own scoring. His assist numbers are nice, but watching him play and then watching a guy like John Wall or Chris Paul or even Harden really reveals the difference in basketball IQ. Schröder's game doesn't lend itself well to having a non-PG initiator, so it's important that he takes leaps in that regard.

 

Also disclaimer: I'm very open to rebuilding most of the damn roster. I like Taurean Prince a good bit, could definitely see him on a winning team. I like the idea of Deandre Bembry. Outside of that, I'm not super attached to most players on this team anymore.

Edited May 6, 2017 by DBac

[Thomas]

Good idea to keep Jose around but Delaney needs to disappear so we could keep Jose and either draft or bring in another point. Believe Jose would benefit both Dennis and a rook quite a bit. As far as making others better, Dennis did get the ball to guys in position to score and they didn't, so thinking its skewed to say he doesn't or maybe he can't make others better if they shoot so incredibly poorly. He actually had to take on some of the scoring burden. 

[Peoriabird]

The Hate for a 23 year old point guard with Dennis' ability and progress at this point in his career is mind boggling.  It took Lebron returning to Cleveland for Kyrie Irving to even make the playoffs in his 4th year as a pro.  I really think there should be a little patience on people's part with this team...The starting line up has been together less than half a season.  let's just add some pieces and let these guys learn how to play together.  Let's drafts some big guys to replace Muscala and see what happens next year with or without Millsap

[Lurker]

Oh and one other thing I've also said is that you often don't see PGs play their best basketball in the NBA until age 25-29, sometimes even later. It doesn't matter if they're like the college one and done players, they often just don't get it until then. It's an intellectual position.