David Aldridge article on Hawks / Ressler / GM

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Ok I'll play along...What Superstars do you recommend we target?  And how do we get them?

There's only one way: draft. We can't attract them as a free agent and I don't see one on the trade market.

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, Sothron said:

There's only one way: draft. We can't attract them as a free agent and I don't see one on the trade market.

So find that superstar in the draft and develop him and build the team in year 3? Sounds easy! Why don't other teams know this? Let's keep this between us until new GM is hired here and then we tell him. Problem solved!

[Sothron]

19 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So find that superstar in the draft and develop him and build the team in year 3? Sounds easy! Why don't other teams know this? Let's keep this between us until new GM is hired here and then we tell him. Problem solved!

There's no need to be snide. I haven't been sarcastic or insulting towards you please extend the same courtesy. I never said it was easy or a guarantee. Nothing in life is ...except the NBA where if you don't have a superstar you have no chance of winning a title.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

There's no need to be snide. I haven't been sarcastic or insulting towards you please extend the same courtesy. I never said it was easy or a guarantee. Nothing in life is ...except the NBA where if you don't have a superstar you have no chance of winning a title.

So name me those guys in the last 10 drafts that would transform the Hawks into the contending team you dream about.

[thecampster]

The last 6 drafts....where the Hawks drafted and a list of players drafted after them they could have had.

2010 - 24th - Damion Jones (traded)

Available - Hassan Whiteside (33rd Sacramento), Lance Stephenson (40 Indiana).

2011 - 18th - Chris Singleton (Traded to Washington), 48th - Keith Benson

Available - Kenneth Faried (22), Nicolai Mirotic (23), Marshon Brooks (25), Jimmy Butler (30) (ouch), Chandler Parsons (38), Isaiah Thomas (60) (ouch).

2012 - 23rd - John Jenkins, 43rd - Mike Scott

Available - Miles Plumlee (26), Festus Ezeli (30), Jay Crowder (34), Draymond Green (35)(double ouch)

2013 - 17th Dennis Schröder, 18 - Traded to Dallas, 44 - Mike Muscala, 47 traded to Utah, 50 traded to Miami.

Available - Tim Hardaway Jr. (24)

2014 - 15 - Adreian Payne, 43 - Walter Tavares, 48 - Lamar Patterson

Available - Bogdan Bogdanovic (27)

2015 - 15 - Kelly Oubre Jr. (Traded to Washingon), 19 Jerian Grant (traded to New York), 50 Marcus Eriksson, 59 - Dimitrios Agravanis.

Available - Bobby Portis (22)

2016 - 12 - Taurean Prince, 21 - DeAndre Bembry, 44 - Isaia Cordinier, 54 Kay Felder (traded to Cleveland), 

Available - Paul Zipser (48)

 

Okay so why this list.  Lets have some fun and build a team from just the last 6 years the Hawks could have had. Current Hawks players are okay to use, players traded away and players missed. You can only add 1 player per draft slot in which he could have been taken. So lets redraft it.

2010 - Hassan Whitesite

2011 - Jimmy Butler, Isaiah Thomas (yes we could have had both.

2012 - Draymond Green

2013 - Dennis Schröder, Mike Muscala

2014 - Bogdan Bogdanovic, Waltar Tavares, Lamar Patterson

2015 - Kelly Oubre Jr, Jerian Grant

2016 - Taurean Prince, Deandry Bembry

 

Lineup -

PG - Isaiah Thomas, Dennis Schröder, Grant

SG - Jimmy Butler, Bembry, Patterson

SF - Taurean Prince, Oubre Jr.

PF - Draymond Green, Bogdanovic

C - Hassan Whiteside, Muscala, Tavares

 

I think I'm taken Sothron's side here (again). Drafting, talent recognition, player development. There are 2 roster spots open FYI. A couple Hawks can't be on this roster (like Teague (Prince deal)) but you can add back in any 2 Hawks signed in the last 5 years that weren't traded away for draft picks. For example, salary with this young team would have been young enough to resign Carroll and Al or to keep Paul this year.

I dare say a starting 5 of Thomas, Butler, Prince, Green, and Whiteside would look pretty darn nice next year.

Edited May 10, 2017 by thecampster

[Peoriabird]

Sothron's side is not just to draft better...his side is tank to get better players which I disagree with and you just proved my point.  You can get better players even outside of the lottery.  Thank you @thecampster

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Sothron's side is not just to draft better...his side is tank to get better players which I disagree with and you just proved my point.  You can get better players even outside of the lottery.  Thank you @thecampster

The Jimmy Butler and Gobert types are extremely rare. More times than not, you get a bust.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Sothron said:

There's no need to be snide. I haven't been sarcastic or insulting towards you please extend the same courtesy. I never said it was easy or a guarantee. Nothing in life is ...except the NBA where if you don't have a superstar you have no chance of winning a title.

Then I'd suggest you consider a risk/reward analysis.  No teams have tanked to become a winner.  It's a fool's gold strategy and I say that as a reformed pro-tank guy.

[Peoriabird]

14 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The Jimmy Butler and Gobert types are extremely rare. More times than not, you get a bust.

I think he mentioned more players than just Jimmy Butler...heck he even left Khawi Leonard off the list who was a non lottery pick as well as the guy in Milwaukee

[Guard]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Sothron's side is not just to draft better...his side is tank to get better players which I disagree with and you just proved my point.  You can get better players even outside of the lottery.  Thank you @thecampster

This isn't the NFL draft where you can find great talent all over the draft. The league has seen more busts picked outside of the lottery than difference makers. 

Guys like Butler, Giannis, and Thomas are the exceptions.  They aren't the norm. There is a reason you don't see teams trying to build their teams with the philosophy of hitting on a bunch of picks outside of the lottery. It's impossible. You might as well tank and pick from players with elite traits at the top of the draft if you're trying to gamble. 

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guard

[Peoriabird]

38 minutes ago, Guard said:

This isn't the NFL draft where you can find great talent all over the draft. The league has seen more busts picked outside of the lottery than difference makers. 

Guys like Butler, Giannis, and Thomas are the exceptions.  They aren't the norm. There is a reason you don't see teams trying to build their teams with the philosophy of hitting on a bunch of picks outside of the lottery. It's impossible. You might as well tank and pick from players with elite traits at the top of the draft if you're trying to gamble. 

 

Which tank teams are contenders now?

[Lurker]

You know, come to think of it, it might make sense to try to attempt what Miami did instead of just sign Millsap and trap yourself contract wise. If it doesn't work you have a mid-high lottery pick and if it does work than you have a bit of a base to build off of.

If you do sign Millsap, I think I fell into an idea that I like, although it goes against the idea that I did have. Take Motley with your second round pick if he falls to the second (he might due to his injury) and later in the season, he's potentially an option if you want a lineup that doesn't have issues guarding PNR.

[Guard]

Which tanking team even tried to compete this season outside of Orlando? Maybe Minnesota? None of those other squads are logically ready yet.  Young players don't come into the league pushing teams into the playoffs right away. Development and experience is necessary. 

[Sothron]

6 hours ago, kg01 said:

Then I'd suggest you consider a risk/reward analysis.  No teams have tanked to become a winner.  It's a fool's gold strategy and I say that as a reformed pro-tank guy.

Yes, Cleveland never tanked to get Lebron and then won a title...oh wait.

Yes, SA never tanked to get Duncan and then won multiple titles...oh wait.

Yes, GSW never tanked to get Curry and Klay and Green  and then won a title...oh wait.

Yes, Bulls never tanked to get some scrub named Michael Jordan and then won six titles...oh wait.

Yes, Pistons never tanked to get Thomas and then won two titles, kinda got cheated out of a third...oh wait.

I can keep going. That comment is simply wrong on a factual basis. Multiple teams over the course of NBA history have tanked, gotten a superstar in the draft and then went on to win a title. Discounting the draft to find a superstar is simply insane. The only way THIS franchise is going to get a superstar is through the draft.

 

 

[Sothron]

5 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I think he mentioned more players than just Jimmy Butler...heck he even left Khawi Leonard off the list who was a non lottery pick as well as the guy in Milwaukee

Exceptions prove the rule. Finding superstars outside of the lottery is almost impossible.

[NBASupes]

I'll say this. If DeRozan doesn't land on the market. 

Indy holds PG, Chicago Butler and Melo Knicks. 

 

It's over for this squad as it is. Time to move on and rebuild. 

[Guest]

Just now, Sothron said:

Yes, Cleveland never tanked to get Lebron and then won a title...oh wait.

Yes, SA never tanked to get Duncan and then won multiple titles...oh wait.

Yes, GSW never tanked to get Curry and Klay and Green  and then won a title...oh wait.

Yes, Bulls never tanked to get some scrub named Michael Jordan and then won six titles...oh wait.

Yes, Pistons never tanked to get Thomas and then won two titles, kinda got cheated out of a third...oh wait.

I can keep going. That comment is simply wrong on a factual basis. Multiple teams over the course of NBA history have tanked, gotten a superstar in the draft and then went on to win a title. Discounting the draft to find a superstar is simply insane. The only way THIS franchise is going to get a superstar is through the draft.

 

 

We going back to the '80's now?  C'mon soth (in Mark Jackson voice), you're better than that.

GS never tanked for any of those guys you mentioned and the Bulls didn't tank for Jordan.  There's some major moving of the goal posts going on in your post, sir.

1. I am not discounting the draft.  To me, that's the only way we'll net a superstar.

b. I'm saying we cannot torpedo the entire franchise chasing one because it's way to risky and ...

3. There aren't any obvious superstars coming down the pike anyways.  If there were, we'd know it by now so ...

d. What is the reason any of these teams are tanking?  I'll answer that for you, it's because these GM's have discovered they can preserve their jobs by selling those magic beans to these low BBIQ owners.

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I think he mentioned more players than just Jimmy Butler...heck he even left Khawi Leonard off the list who was a non lottery pick as well as the guy in Milwaukee

Yes but he was picked before our pick.

[thecampster]

8 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Sothron's side is not just to draft better...his side is tank to get better players which I disagree with and you just proved my point.  You can get better players even outside of the lottery.  Thank you @thecampster

It is easier to draft better when you draft higher.  But there is so much focus on "finding the right coach" and no where near enough money spent on player identification. Irregardless of this fact, finding talent in the draft = lower salaries, which then leaves room to sign the right free agents.  This happened when a young Hawks team was able to sign Joe Johnson and then add Mike Bibby. I side with Sothron because his argument centers on the fact that you get better in the draft and complete your team in Free Agency...not the reverse.

Last thought. I was alive and lived in the Chicagoland area during the rise of Jordan. They used Doug Collins to build that team (superior talent evaluator) and then put Jackson in charge for the system.  The Hawks need a Collins type to bring in the right talent before bringing in a Bud type.

[Sothron]

17 minutes ago, kg01 said:

We going back to the '80's now?  C'mon soth (in Mark Jackson voice), you're better than that.

GS never tanked for any of those guys you mentioned and the Bulls didn't tank for Jordan.  There's some major moving of the goal posts going on in your post, sir.

1. I am not discounting the draft.  To me, that's the only way we'll net a superstar.

b. I'm saying we cannot torpedo the entire franchise chasing one because it's way to risky and ...

3. There aren't any obvious superstars coming down the pike anyways.  If there were, we'd know it by now so ...

d. What is the reason any of these teams are tanking?  I'll answer that for you, it's because these GM's have discovered they can preserve their jobs by selling those magic beans to these low BBIQ owners.

Broski, I can go back to the 50's to prove the point. You can see so many teams that tanked, got a superstar in the draft and were able to build around them to win titles. I didn't mention Heat with Wade, Dallas with Dirk, Lakers with Kobe, etc. There's also the teams that almost won a title by doing the same thing. Seattle, OKC, Knicks, Magic, etc.

You need superstars to win championships. There's no getting around it. The only way this franchise is getting one is in the draft. We don't have brain dead GMs trading away lottery picks like the old days. That means we need to embrace the tank, build around our youth and not sign players to keep on the treadmill.