What if the Hawks intend to overpay Millsap

[Bankingitbig]

6 hours ago, ISOJOE said:

It would obviously mean that the Hawks FO doesn't want to retool in the near future. I wouldn't like this direction but a big trade could make it interesting imo.

Phil Jackson is trying to drive Melo away so that he waives his no-trade clause and he possibly will.

1. Trade

Hawks get: Melo, Lee

Knicks get: Schröder, Bazemore, 31st pick via BKN

---> 37-40mio capspace 

--------------

2. Sign a PG:

A options: Holiday, Teague, George Hill 

B options that would likely avoid luxury tax: Livingston, Collison

-----------

3. Sign Millsap 

--------------------------------------------------

S5: PG-Lee-Melo-Millsap-Howard

Small ball lineup:

PG-Lee-Prince-Melo-Sap

Where are you getting this $37-40mm in cap space?

Schröder at $15.5mm and Baze at $16.9mm next season vs. Melo at $26.2mm and Lee at $11.7mm. So we take on $5.5mm in cap (closer to ~$3.6mm if you include the $31 pick).

We don't have $37-40mm in cap space if you don't renounce Millsap's cap hold. We have literally zero cap space if you keep Millsap's cap hold and account for incomplete roster charges.

No way we can afford anyone unless we renounce Millsap's cap hold, which likely isn't going to happen if we believe what Ressler says (though so far his word hasn't been very true).

[Lurker]

It's not really on topic of this thread, but here's a brutally honest observation on Dennis Schröder right now:

The Dennis Schröder we see right now is Reggie Jackson, just with a better personality (even considering the incident at the break). He has the potential if he figures out how to use the tools that he has on defense and gets consistent with his shot, to be similar to Eric Bledsoe. That's not a top tier PG, but it is tier 2, which is pretty good, and is why the Hawks wanted to invest in him.

On topic, I'm not doing this trade at all.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, ISOJOE said:

Idk about American Knicks fans but German Knicks fans don't regret it at all and there is also no need for it. He plays like an average NBA SG starter and only gets 11-12mio per year.

I quote facts and you're saying that he was awful....without any valid explanation... 

Sounds good but we are getting screwed in this trade:

It's the age that bothers us! Melo is 32 and Lee is 31 and you're saying trade our 23 year old rising star who has a ton of potential???? That's the part where the Hawks are automatically going to say no and for good reason...also losing Dennis would put an even bigger hole at pg as melo or lee can't run point effectively and in this era you need a good point .

Conclusion on the trade you recommended:

Most will look at this and say I rather role with a long time future of Dennis, THJ, and Prince than a short period of time of watching old vets melo, lee, Sap, Howard try to challenge the east.

 

looking at a different scenario:

If we want melo than Baze is involved along with someone else plus a pick . Dennis and Prince are more valuable than melo at this point & we can't continue to get screwed in trades.

A team full of old vets is not the answer but a mixture of both is. So I'll do you one better....there's some that seem to believe Prince is highly capable of starting at SG and playing it well so with that said here's an even trade that works for both teams!

 

My Trade Proposal :

Baze+THJ (S&T THJ back to Knicks) for Melo+Lee

Assuming THJ gets paid like many are expecting salaries may match up to pull an even trade. Plus THJ is restricted so we can match whatever he's offered if so desired.

why the Knicks do it? Simple...they get younger and get rid of their aging star so they can officially start to build around portzingis.

Why the Hawks do it? Gives us a real scorer we haven't had since Nique in melo then provides us with a two way vet  off the bench in lee. Maybe then we could resign illayasova to complete the bench with any remaining cap (probably not, wishful thinking).

Hawks lineup:

pg - Dennis

Sg - Prince 

Sf - Melo

Pf - Sap 

C - Howard 

*lee off the bench with Bembry, maybe illyasova if possible in this scenario.

 

This may or may not be possible I'm just throwing out another idea where we don't get screwed in the trade cause trading Dennis or even Prince is just a complete "NO"

[ISOJOE]

Interesting thoughts but Melo + Lee for Baze+THjr s&t would basically mean that the knicks get nothing in return. Stephen A Smith would be on suicide watch lol. I would like to watch First Take after that trade.

I still think that my proposal wouldn't be a bad trade but maybe y'all are okay with my adjustment:

Dennis+Baze+31st pick for Lee+Melo

The Hawks have the right to swap first round picks this year.

That 7th pick is a good trade asset.

[DS5]

I may be wrong, but I think you can't combine players on S&T's anymore. In response to OP, there's no way we could trade Dennis for that. We'd be insane to trade our rising star for a disgruntled Melo. And I'm not sure Lee is that much better than Baze, not to mention his age. Plus, I think that at this point, Melo would be better served playing the 4, and I'd rather have Sap back than losing any of our young guys for Melo. 

That revised proposal doesn't really make sense for either side. Why would NY give up their 7th pick if they are rebuilding? We end up with a bunch of wings and no floor general. 

[thecampster]

14 hours ago, NBASupes said:

LOL, trade Dennis for Melo. 

I had a serious WTF moment when I read that.

[BudBall]

Noooo, you are ruining the legacy of my old user name. Schröder in that trade is plain awful.

[ISOJOE]

vor einer Stunde, ISO sagte:

Noooo, you are ruining the legacy of my old user name. Schröder in that trade is plain awful.

I'm sorry 

[thecampster]

On 5/16/2017 at 5:30 AM, ISOJOE said:

It would obviously mean that the Hawks FO doesn't want to retool in the near future. I wouldn't like this direction but a big trade could make it interesting imo.

Phil Jackson is trying to drive Melo away so that he waives his no-trade clause and he possibly will.

1. Trade

Hawks get: Melo, Lee

Knicks get: Schröder, Bazemore, 31st pick via BKN

---> 37-40mio capspace 

--------------

2. Sign a PG:

A options: Holiday, Teague, George Hill 

B options that would likely avoid luxury tax: Livingston, Collison

-----------

3. Sign Millsap 

--------------------------------------------------

S5: PG-Lee-Melo-Millsap-Howard

Small ball lineup:

PG-Lee-Prince-Melo-Sap

Okay, let me now destroy this.  Salaries involved.

Howard $23.5 mil

Millsap $30+ mil

Melo $26 mil

Lee 12 mil

Hardaway QO - $3.3 mil

Prince - $2.5 mil

Bembry $2 mil 

Delaney - $2.5 mil

1st round pick $1.9 mil

All numbers have been rounded for simplicity. This is 9 players for a total of $103.7 million (over the cap). Now this doesn't address the point guard you are going to sign for 8 to $15 million (which you can't do because you are over the cap).  Nor does it address the 5 other vet minimum or 2nd round level talent to fill out the roster. Doesn't address Moose and doesn't take into account the need to waive Dunleavy (team option).  With this trade package, you can't afford any point guard in your list. You can't even afford a 2 piece and a biscuit.

This isn't NBA2K17. You can't just randomly trade. There are salary considerations to think through. For starters the difference between the salaries of the 2 teams traded salaries is more than $5 million different. For teams over the cap (New York and us post trade) you can't be more than $5 million apart on this much salary. Additionally, the trade doesn't take into account cap holds which must be dealt with for league approval. The base minimum holds (not considering F/A player salaries) puts the team over the cap.

[Guest]

Bad trade idea.

We don't have 30-40 million in capspace once you add Millsap's $30 million cap hold.  You are taking on approx. $6 more million in salary with Melo and Lee which leaves us even less capspace.  And now we have no PG and even less money to sign a STARTING PG.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Bad trade idea.

We don't have 3-40 million in capspace once you Millsap's $30 million cap hold.  You are taking on approx. $6 more million in salary with Melo and Lee which leaves us even less capspace.  And now we have no PG and even less money to sign a STARTING PG.

Holy crap, I beat you for once.

[thecampster]

So ISOJOE, your post does give us an opportunity to rehash why maxing Millsap is a terrible move.  I've gone over this at length in other posts but there is no contender team with enough money to max Millsap. Boston doesn't actually have that cap space and GS doesn't either. It is ghost space because they would have to renounce their own free agents (most of which are going to be resigned) to have the space. So no team in the top 16 can afford Sap except us. None of them can even afford $25mil/season. There are a couple of bottom dwellers who can afford the max. If Millsap wants to go suck for 7 million more starting per season...I accept that...its stupid if he values winning, but go figure.  Also, when you take into account the favorable tax situation in Atlanta vs other cities there is pretty much no one who will offer more than $25 million who is worth it. That said, the only way we get that space is if Millsap signs elsewhere. If he signs elsewhere (and only after the deal is done) we would have 38 million in cap space before any deals. That doesn't include the cost of resigning Hardaway (probably $12 million starting....$9 million difference), our cap holds or our 1st round pick's salary.

We can't do anything fancy without trading away Bazemore and either not taking back salary or giving away draft picks to take back a better player/fit.

[TheFuzz]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

So ISOJOE, your post does give us an opportunity to rehash why maxing Millsap is a terrible move.  I've gone over this at length in other posts but there is no contender team with enough money to max Millsap. Boston doesn't actually have that cap space and GS doesn't either. It is ghost space because they would have to renounce their own free agents (most of which are going to be resigned) to have the space. So no team in the top 16 can afford Sap except us. None of them can even afford $25mil/season. There are a couple of bottom dwellers who can afford the max. If Millsap wants to go suck for 7 million more starting per season...I accept that...its stupid if he values winning, but go figure.  Also, when you take into account the favorable tax situation in Atlanta vs other cities there is pretty much no one who will offer more than $25 million who is worth it. That said, the only way we get that space is if Millsap signs elsewhere. If he signs elsewhere (and only after the deal is done) we would have 38 million in cap space before any deals. That doesn't include the cost of resigning Hardaway (probably $12 million starting....$9 million difference), our cap holds or our 1st round pick's salary.

We can't do anything fancy without trading away Bazemore and either not taking back salary or giving away draft picks to take back a better player/fit.

Agreed on the not maxing Millsap front. We can give him a pretty solid raise instead, and Boston and Miami are our only competition right now really. The Suns, Sixers, Nets and possibly Denver have some space but would they max him? Not sure. Resigning Millsap to $25-27M a year is MUCH more palatable and gives us a little more wiggle room underneath the tax.

Edit: Maybe Houston too, actually.

Edited May 17, 2017 by TheFuzz

[ISOJOE]

Houston giving him 100/3 is a possibility and they would be the third best team in the league with him imo (of course they would have to trade Anderson away before)

 

Btw I didn't say that I want this trade. I would personally keep Schröder and would trade Howard away, wouldn't resign Millsap+THjr and finally pick in the 6-9 range next year (Carter, Bonga), anyway: I said if the Hawks give Sap the max contract it is a good option. You can rebuild later when Millsap/Dwight/Melo/Collison or Livingston are 34/35+. You don't lose any picks so there is no problem. 

Yes you are right about Millsap's caphold but Collison/Livingston is enough to explain it. 

Livingston/Collison(Delaney)-Lee(Bembry)-Melo(Prince)-Sap(Ily)-Howard 

Is definitely a better team than

Schröder(Delaney/Bembry)-Baze/THjr-Prince(Sefo)-Millsap(Ily)-Howard (with Prince playing more crunchtime minutes than D8)

I'm talking about the next two years. This team would be the second best team in the east if the Celtics don't trade for a star or sign Hayward. 

I don't say that we would beat the Cavs but we would be their biggest threat. The ownership would make good money too.

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, ISOJOE said:

Houston giving him 100/3 is a possibility and they would be the third best team in the league with him imo (of course they would have to trade Anderson away before)

 

Btw I didn't say that I want this trade. I would personally keep Schröder and would trade Howard away, wouldn't resign Millsap+THjr and finally pick in the 6-9 range next year (Carter, Bonga), anyway: I said if the Hawks give Sap the max contract it is a good option. You can rebuild later when Millsap/Dwight/Melo/Collison or Livingston are 34/35+. You don't lose any picks so there is no problem. 

Yes you are right about Millsap's caphold but Collison/Livingston is enough to explain it. 

Livingston/Collison(Delaney)-Lee(Bembry)-Melo(Prince)-Sap(Ily)-Howard 

Is definitely a better team than

Schröder(Delaney/Bembry)-Baze/THjr-Prince(Sefo)-Millsap(Ily)-Howard (with Prince playing more crunchtime minutes than D8)

I'm talking about the next two years. This team would be the second best team in the east if the Celtics don't trade for a star or sign Hayward. 

I don't say that we would beat the Cavs but we would be their biggest threat. The ownership would make good money too.

See...this is what I am talking about. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston_rockets/  Houston already has $89 million committed next year. Assuming they renounced every free agent, they have $12 million to offer. you can't just throw 30 million around. There are rules.

[ISOJOE]

vor 4 Minuten, thecampster sagte:

See...this is what I am talking about. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston_rockets/  Houston already has $89 million committed next year. Assuming they renounced every free agent, they have $12 million to offer. you can't just throw 30 million around. There are rules.

 

Learn to read !

 

vor 2 Stunden, ISOJOE sagte:

 (of course they would have to trade Anderson away before)

 

 

 

[Thomas]

Either we have Sap or Ersan coming back and rookie cats like Motley or Swanigan backing one of those two up. The owner makes it sound like its Sap but you know... Maybe Ressler splurges big on a SG like JJ or spends on Tim, his words at this point don't mean so much really. Whether the news is old or not, Melo really doesn't seem like he wants to be here and am thinking he is going to be in a weird mental/emotional place after the smoke from this Phil inflicted drama clears, so am saying screw that. He can be someone else's chemistry problem moving forward.

[thecampster]

24 minutes ago, ISOJOE said:

 

Learn to read !

 

 

Okay, lets play your game. So your list of trade opportunities for a player averaging 13.6 points, 4.6 boards at 19 million are? 

Better yet. Assuming the Rockets find a trade partner for Anderson and take back $0 in salary (which is what you are saying), they then have less than $29 million to spend after cap holds for the 2 empty roster spots and assuming they renounce all cap holds. So yes, in the fantasy land that they can offload a $19 million + salary for a player averaging 13/5 as a top 3 option in a run and gun team to a team with the cap space to absorb him. Yes, they could offer around $95 million for 3 years. You win.

[MaceCase]

On 5/16/2017 at 11:08 AM, kg01 said:

I don't know how true this is anymore.  Him staying while Phil is clearly trying to get him out undermines his manhood a bit IMHO.  He may look to get out just to stick it to Phil.

I think you got that the other way around.  You can't stick it to Phil by giving him exactly what he wants. THEN Melo looks like a lil bitch because Phil will be snickering "yea, I thought so!" as Melo clears out his locker. 

This is part of why Melo has been even more stubborn about leaving, he doesn't want to give Phil the satisfaction of showing up to his home, bad mouthing his cooking and making him step out 'for some fresh air' (kinda like your BIL).  

[Guest]

On 5/17/2017 at 4:28 AM, ISOJOE said:

I'm sorry 

@ISOJOE vs @ISO in itself is very confusing..lol