Going to the dark side

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

And had 22 in the last game.

I answered your question, how  many games did we  have more turnovers than assists?  The answer is 2. 

26 assists in the last game, so still correct.

28% from 3.

[High5]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

In game 2 he was.

That's an important distinction to make. Also, he was a massive +3 in that game. Meanwhile Calderon was +29 in game 4. If you think Jennings being on the Wizards, on the Hawks, or on the moon would have changed the outcome of that series you're insane.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

In game 2 he was.  In game 2 Baze had those 4 costly turnovers running point and Jenning played well at point.

Bradley Beal was unstoppable in the 4th quarter of game 2.

This is getting like the Dwight/Muscala debate - makes no sense - so I'm done.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, High5 said:

That's an important distinction to make. Also, he was a massive +3 in that game. Meanwhile Calderon was +29 in game 4. If you think Jennings being on the Wizards, on the Hawks, or on the moon would have changed the outcome of that series you're insane.

Maybe so but You know as well as I know that Bud would not have been using Baze at point if he had another point guard on the roster.

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Bradley Beal was unstoppable in the 4th quarter of game 2.

This is getting like the Dwight/Muscala debate - makes no sense - so I'm done.

You're right.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, High5 said:

That's an important distinction to make. Also, he was a massive +3 in that game. Meanwhile Calderon was +29 in game 4. If you think Jennings being on the Wizards, on the Hawks, or on the moon would have changed the outcome of that series you're insane.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Maybe so but You know as well as I know that Bud would not have been using Baze at point if he had another point guard on the roster..

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

Double or nothing? Book it! 

 

Witness-George..(I think play now's puttin something in my food)...

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, Spud2Nique said:

Ya but why mention Curry and Durant then when you know it's automatic? 

Lol what a d*ck...

 

love u too...;-)

 

i think hes more the top gun guy..

Because collectively they are due about $30 million in raises which is what is going to take money away from the other players. Their collective roster strength is going to take a serious hit.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Because collectively they are due about $30 million in raises which is what is going to take money away from the other players. Their collective roster strength is going to take a serious hit.

Exchange of role players for the scrubs might happen...not sure it doesn't stop their big 4 from another run.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Here is the other side that no one wants to talk about

3) Al Horford

11) Acie Law

5) Sheldon Williams

2) Marvin Williams

6) Josh Childress

6) Demarr Johnson

10) Jason Terry

10) Adam Keefe

9) Stacie Augmon

10) Rumeal Robinson

5) Jon Koncak

The only pick that would have been close to a star player was Paul Gasol and we traded him for Shareef Abdur Rahim who was a nice player but not a superstar by any stretch.

If we took all of our lottery picks over the past 15 lottery picks in their prime and put them on the same team, they may not win 35 games together.  If fact I would take our non Lottery pick to win straight up!

What a depressing list.  Dennis may be better than all of those guys, outside of Horford.  And he may surpass Horford in a mere 2 years.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, KB21 said:

I'm sure that is what the Timberwolves thought 13 years ago.  

To your point, here are some of the current playoff droughts

 

EASTERN CONFERENCE

 

Orlando Magic ( 5 seasons ) 

* Best draft picks ( during this period ):  Olidipo ( selected  #2 )  - traded . . . Gordon ( 4 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition ( during this period ): Serge Ibaka - traded for a 1st rd pick

Interesting article:  http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/2/14/14611298/serge-ibaka-trade-magic-awful-history

 

Philadelphia 76ers ( 5 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Embiid ( 3 )  - injury prone . . .  Simmons ( 1 ) - missed entire season due to injury . . . Okafor ( 3 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Dario Saric

* Interesting article:  http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/5/3/15521374/sixers-tinder-owner-josh-harris-ceo-scott-o-neil-general-manager-bryan-colangleo-ben-simmons-injury

 

New York Knicks ( 4 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Porzingis ( 4 ) . . . Hardaway Jr ( 24 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Derrick Rose

* Interesting article:  https://gothamsn.com/how-bad-could-it-actually-get-for-the-knicks-next-season-adbb69373dfc

 

 

 

WESTERN CONFERENCE

 

Minnesota Timberwolves ( 13 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Towns ( 1 ) . . . Lavine ( 13 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Andrew Wiggins . . . Kevin Love - who was traded for Wiggins

* Interesting Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/04/17/will-the-timberwolves-be-able-to-convince-anyone-to-sign-in-free-agency/?utm_term=.0d73d8acb19b

 

Sacramento Kings ( 11 seasons )

* Best draft pick:  Demarcus Cousins ( 5 ) - traded . . . Tyreke Evans ( 4 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Rudy Gay

* Interesting Article:  https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draft-sacramento-kings-tank-c6b5cd6fc74f

 

Phoenix Suns ( 7 seasons )

* Best draft pick:  Devin Booker ( 13 ) . . . Markief Morris ( 13 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Eric Bledsoe

* Interesting Article:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/05/08/nba-draft-phoenix-suns-lottery-pick-playoff-drought/310908001/

[Thomas]

20 hours ago, Spud2Nique said:

I love Sap but it might be time to let him go. This is hard for me to say as Millsap has become a top 10 Hawk of all time for me. The guy is just a pro. 

Its hard to say it but yeah for us to field an array of talent with any lengthy future that may be the only logical route. Love the guy but the expense is almost beyond imaginable coming up. Will be difficult without him for us to win early but we will be younger for sure.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

To your point, here are some of the current playoff droughts

 

EASTERN CONFERENCE

 

Orlando Magic ( 5 seasons ) 

* Best draft picks ( during this period ):  Olidipo ( selected  #2 )  - traded . . . Gordon ( 4 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition ( during this period ): Serge Ibaka - traded for a 1st rd pick

Interesting article:  http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/2/14/14611298/serge-ibaka-trade-magic-awful-history

 

Philadelphia 76ers ( 5 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Embiid ( 3 )  - injury prone . . .  Simmons ( 1 ) - missed entire season due to injury . . . Okafor ( 3 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Dario Saric

* Interesting article:  http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/5/3/15521374/sixers-tinder-owner-josh-harris-ceo-scott-o-neil-general-manager-bryan-colangleo-ben-simmons-injury

 

New York Knicks ( 4 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Porzingis ( 4 ) . . . Hardaway Jr ( 24 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Derrick Rose

* Interesting article:  https://gothamsn.com/how-bad-could-it-actually-get-for-the-knicks-next-season-adbb69373dfc

 

 

 

WESTERN CONFERENCE

 

Minnesota Timberwolves ( 13 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Towns ( 1 ) . . . Lavine ( 13 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Andrew Wiggins . . . Kevin Love - who was traded for Wiggins

* Interesting Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/04/17/will-the-timberwolves-be-able-to-convince-anyone-to-sign-in-free-agency/?utm_term=.0d73d8acb19b

 

Sacramento Kings ( 11 seasons )

* Best draft pick:  Demarcus Cousins ( 5 ) - traded . . . Tyreke Evans ( 4 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Rudy Gay

* Interesting Article:  https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draft-sacramento-kings-tank-c6b5cd6fc74f

 

Phoenix Suns ( 7 seasons )

* Best draft pick:  Devin Booker ( 13 ) . . . Markief Morris ( 13 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Eric Bledsoe

* Interesting Article:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/05/08/nba-draft-phoenix-suns-lottery-pick-playoff-drought/310908001/

Most of these teams have been characterized by terrible management.  Trading their lottery picks, signing Noah and Rose, trading young players for declining vets, etc.  Bad management will never get you anywhere regardless of what strategy you are following.

 

There is also no doubt that if you are content just making the playoffs that you are much more likely to keep that up by trying to stay competitive than you are to suck and try to hit big in the lottery (either by drafting or trading the pick).  If you want to win a ring, you have to dip your toe into those lottery pick waters (by trade, record, etc.) and hit big.

[KB21]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

To your point, here are some of the current playoff droughts

 

EASTERN CONFERENCE

 

Orlando Magic ( 5 seasons ) 

* Best draft picks ( during this period ):  Olidipo ( selected  #2 )  - traded . . . Gordon ( 4 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition ( during this period ): Serge Ibaka - traded for a 1st rd pick

Interesting article:  http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/2/14/14611298/serge-ibaka-trade-magic-awful-history

 

Philadelphia 76ers ( 5 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Embiid ( 3 )  - injury prone . . .  Simmons ( 1 ) - missed entire season due to injury . . . Okafor ( 3 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Dario Saric

* Interesting article:  http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/5/3/15521374/sixers-tinder-owner-josh-harris-ceo-scott-o-neil-general-manager-bryan-colangleo-ben-simmons-injury

 

New York Knicks ( 4 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Porzingis ( 4 ) . . . Hardaway Jr ( 24 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Derrick Rose

* Interesting article:  https://gothamsn.com/how-bad-could-it-actually-get-for-the-knicks-next-season-adbb69373dfc

 

 

 

WESTERN CONFERENCE

 

Minnesota Timberwolves ( 13 seasons )

* Best draft picks:  Towns ( 1 ) . . . Lavine ( 13 )

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Andrew Wiggins . . . Kevin Love - who was traded for Wiggins

* Interesting Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/04/17/will-the-timberwolves-be-able-to-convince-anyone-to-sign-in-free-agency/?utm_term=.0d73d8acb19b

 

Sacramento Kings ( 11 seasons )

* Best draft pick:  Demarcus Cousins ( 5 ) - traded . . . Tyreke Evans ( 4 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Rudy Gay

* Interesting Article:  https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draft-sacramento-kings-tank-c6b5cd6fc74f

 

Phoenix Suns ( 7 seasons )

* Best draft pick:  Devin Booker ( 13 ) . . . Markief Morris ( 13 ) - traded

* Best FA/Trade acquisition:  Eric Bledsoe

* Interesting Article:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/05/08/nba-draft-phoenix-suns-lottery-pick-playoff-drought/310908001/

This is apparently the "treadmill" many want to get on.  Half of the teams in the lottery have been then for at least 5 seasons, and the Lakers are going on 4 now.  The Pelicans have consistently been in the lottery as well 4 out of 5 years.    The Pistons have been there for 5 out of the past 7 drafts. 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This is apparently the "treadmill" many want to get on.  Half of the teams in the lottery have been then for at least 5 seasons, and the Lakers are going on 4 now.  The Pelicans have consistently been in the lottery as well 4 out of 5 years.    The Pistons have been there for 5 out of the past 7 drafts. 

You realize half those teams aren't trying to tank and build through lottery picks but are trying to be competitive, right?  The Knicks, Magic, Kings and Suns all made disastrous moves in recent years thinking those moves would propel them into the playoffs.  Instead, they end up owing unprotected picks, dealing vets for less than they paid for them to try to salvage something, sitting on vastly overpaid and unproductive vet contracts, etc.

Philly and Minnesota are the only teams that have committed to building through the draft and both have made some really bad decisions in the draft but to me are nevertheless in fairly interesting positions for the future now.

[Bankingitbig]

16 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Lol, this is far from true. Most were flops. His drafts got better with Quinn

Sorry to bring this back up, as I am a bit late to the party. It has been reported that Dimitroff and Smith didn't see eye-to-eye in how to build the Falcons, but that Dimitroff conceded to Smith. Also, Pioli coming in as Assistant GM in 2014 helped Dimitroff, as Pioli's strength was in evaluating linemen which is Dimitroff's weakness. Team system is much more important in the NFL as well. It's easier to draft only for guys that fit your system when you have 7 rounds and 50+ players on a team. You can't really do that in the NBA, as talent generally trumps system since there are only 5 players on the court at a time (compared to 22 in the NFL if you count offense + defense).

[KB21]

29 minutes ago, AHF said:

You realize half those teams aren't trying to tank and build through lottery picks but are trying to be competitive, right?  The Knicks, Magic, Kings and Suns all made disastrous moves in recent years thinking those moves would propel them into the playoffs.  Instead, they end up owing unprotected picks, dealing vets for less than they paid for them to try to salvage something, sitting on vastly overpaid and unproductive vet contracts, etc.

Philly and Minnesota are the only teams that have committed to building through the draft and both have made some really bad decisions in the draft but to me are nevertheless in fairly interesting positions for the future now.

Sigh.

All I can say is just wait and see.  If the Hawks decide to bottom out, there will be a protracted amount of time that it takes the team to become competitive again.  It's just the nature of playing the lottery game.  If you want to spend at least 5-6 years building, then by all means, tank and bottom out.  Let that losing culture establish itself.

[AHF]

48 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Sigh.

All I can say is just wait and see.  If the Hawks decide to bottom out, there will be a protracted amount of time that it takes the team to become competitive again.  It's just the nature of playing the lottery game.  If you want to spend at least 5-6 years building, then by all means, tank and bottom out.  Let that losing culture establish itself.

We already waited and saw.

You posted an article that said teams are better treadmilling than bottoming out if they want a ring.  Notably, the article did not point to any teams that had ever done this or analyze any particular strategies but instead relied on general numbers that showed over 25 years and multiple CBAs that teams generally won more games the following years if they won more the prior year.

It was published in April 2012.

In April 2012, two of the bottoming out teams were the Cavs and the Warriors (each 13th in their conference).  They are now our 2015, 2016 and 2017 champions and will enter as the favorites to win in 2018.  Other bottoming out teams from 2012 missed the playoffs in 2017 (Charlotte, New Orleans, Sacramento).  We have already seen the variance.  Hit big in the lottery and be a champ.  Miss in the lottery and be among the teams that live in the lottery. 

The Hawks in April 2012 finished the season with the 5th seed in the East and lost 4-2 to the 4th seed.  Since then they have tried to stay competitive with late draft picks, free agent signings and trades.  In 2017 they were the 5th seed in the East and lost 4-2 to the 4th seed.  

In the interim, they moved to near competitor status but never remotely threatened beating the best in their Conference let along winning a ring -- without any true star they couldn't get over the hump or sustain it and are back where they where they started in 2012:  likely to win more games than the 2012 #14 (in conference) Sacramento Kings and having made many more playoff appearances than the #15 New Orleans (who stupidly stopped building through the draft too early and traded lottery picks for so-so vets) but not even remotely as good as the #13 teams and just having been beaten by the Wizards (2012 #14).  Competitive to make the playoffs but not even remotely close to truly contending for a title.   Still having never won a playoff game beyond the second round of the playoffs.

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

We already waited and saw lol.

 

You posted an article that said you are better treadmilling than bottoming out. 

It was published in April 2012.

In April 2012, two of the bottoming out teams were the Cavs and the Warriors (each 13th in their conference).  They are now our 2015, 2016 and 2017 champions and will enter as the favorites to win in 2018.  Other bottoming out teams from 2012 missed the playoffs in 2017 (Charlotte, New Orleans, Sacramento).  We have already seen the variance.  Hit big in the lottery and be a champ.  Miss in the lottery and be among the teams that live in the lottery. 

The Hawks in April 2012 finished the season with the 5th seed in the East and lost 4-2 to the 4th seed.  Since then they have tried to stay competitive with late draft picks, free agent signings and trades.  In 2017 they were the 5th seed in the East and lost 4-2 to the 4th seed.  

In the interim, they moved to near competitor status but never remotely threatened beating the best in their Conference let along winning a ring -- without any true star they couldn't sustain it and are back where they where they started in 2012.  Likely to win more games than the 2012 #14 (in conference) Sacramento Kings and having made many more playoff appearances than the #15 New Orleans (who stupidly stopped building through the draft too early and traded lottery picks for so-so vets) but not even remotely as good as the #13 teams and not looking as promising as the 2012 #14 Wizards.

The Cavs getting LeBron James based on sentimentality does not change the fact that bottoming out is a poor strategy overall, because the fact of the matter is, if James doesn't have sentiment for the Cleveland area and doesn't sign there, they are still a bottom dwelling team.

Golden State is the one team that you can emphatically state won a championship with stars they drafted, but they also didn't have high lottery picks and one of those stars was a 2nd round pick.  They also spent the previous 18 seasons with only one playoff appearance prior to their run.  Personally, I'm not willing to wait 18 years to build a playoff caliber team again.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Bankingitbig said:

Sorry to bring this back up, as I am a bit late to the party. It has been reported that Dimitroff and Smith didn't see eye-to-eye in how to build the Falcons, but that Dimitroff conceded to Smith. Also, Pioli coming in as Assistant GM in 2014 helped Dimitroff, as Pioli's strength was in evaluating linemen which is Dimitroff's weakness. Team system is much more important in the NFL as well. It's easier to draft only for guys that fit your system when you have 7 rounds and 50+ players on a team. You can't really do that in the NBA, as talent generally trumps system since there are only 5 players on the court at a time (compared to 22 in the NFL if you count offense + defense).

Y'all keep using this phrase talent trumps system but I seem to remember poster so anxious about the 2014 draft claiming it was the best draft since the Lebron-Wade draft 2003 right?  Everybody wanted desperately to get their hands on Andrew Wiggins and 3 years later...nothing from that draft. Not a single all Star.  When are we going to learn??