Poetic justice

[benhillboy]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

He knows they will all find a way to make it work because there are ways for GS and Cleveland to go waaaay over the cap to continue their dominance.     

 

 

In GS's case move to San Fran and price out your original die-hard fans.  I swear the lower bowls of Oracle have replaced all the Blacks with Asians and senior citizen aged White couples who won't be caught dead without full business attire under their free T-shirts.  Nothing against those folks at all, but that homecourt advantage pales to what it was before their first ring.  

Y'all know I'm a Curry fiend though.  I can throw everything that's wrong with the NBA out the window watching that kid.  +15 over the supposed MVP front-runner, just saying.

Edited June 8, 2017 by benhillboy

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

In GS's case move to San Fran and price out your original die-hard fans.  I swear the lower bowls of Oracle have replaced all the Blacks with Asians and senior citizen aged White couples who won't be caught dead without full business attire under their free T-shirts.  Nothing against those folks at all, but that homecourt advantage pales to what it was before their first ring.

Nzinga is recommending you get bann'd.  I told her I'd help you re-phrase.

Your overall point is that they've priced themselves out of having real fans in the stands so, going forward, they'll have a 'corporate crowd'.  That's totally true.

Implying there will be no blacks in the crowd is not a true statement.  There's some rich black dudes out there along with those Silicon Valley high-dollar cats too.

Now let's get started on your canned apology.  Repeat after me ... "I apologize to anyone I offended, blah, blah, blah ...

[Lurker]

I thought I wouldn't enjoy this if it was a sweep but I actually have as a neutral. Game 1 wasn't really fun but game 3 and even 2 until it was a blowout was entertaining.

This is awful for basketball itself. It's non competitive outside of one team.

Kyrie is dumb. He needs to think instead of hold the ball and jack a three.

[Admin]

What?

[Sothron]

Sports are just a form of entertainment. If you enjoy watching one stacked team obliterate the entire league and that is what you enjoy, hey, knock yourself out. I have no interest in watching it. No one should feel their integrity is being questioned either way.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Glad you guys bring it up.

Just want to make a distinction here.

Great games are a natural product of two teams that are very good (which is a proxy for saying "conference champions," no?) playing each other. Decades of NBA Finals routinely feature some number of great games in any given series.

That much, then, is to be expected. I doubt any of us thought there wouldn't be a good game. To the contrary, opposite--my guess is most thought there would be a good game every time. (Though, notably, that hasn't happened).

Point being...

The nausea prompted by the ring-chasing back story of how each team got there isn't mitigated or distracted by there being some number of good games, or even if it were 100% good games.

And to the more specific point of the OP graphic...

Yeah. How poetically just that things would go down just this way.

Let me just say... I'm enjoying watching the crumbling of Lebron's dreams...

 

Now... to the topic.   Superteams are not new.  The Celtics and the Lakers have what 31 championships between them.   Those early Boston championships were superteams.  I think what has pissed off the basketball purist is that Superteams used to be built by GMs.  Even up to the 2nd Big three in Boston (KG, Pierce, and Allen).   However, Lebron is the first star to take the teams that he played for and leverage his own superteam.  He set the table for the Miami Heat Superteam that was supposed to win 7 championships... (but only won 2).  That was Lebron's doing because he called for a "summit" of the top players at the time and they leveraged their way to Miami.   He did it again when he went back to Cleveland.  Going to a team that had 3 1st overall picks after he left and he forced a trade of Wiggins for Love so that he could win a ring.

KD on the otherhand watched Lebron and instead of assembling a superteam, he went to a team that was already super and made them a maxsuperteam.  So when they finish the sweep... It's sad for Basketball, but it would be sweet for me to see the biggest cun artist in the game get his legacy crushed.

But the League is NOT innocent here.  The League has helped Lebron out as much as they possibly could.

1.  The League did nothing when Lebron conspired to build the first superteam.

2.  The League cheated San Antonio vs. OKC to give Lebron a championship. (2012). 

3.  The League cheated San Antonio again (2014) to give Lebron a 2nd championship.

4.  The League stacked Cleveland with 1st overall picks three years in a row.

5.  The League cheated GS last year... (D. Green)

So for GS to run the table on Cleveland is definitely poetic Justice for both Lebron and the League. 

 

[HawkItus]

be·grudge

bəˈɡrəj/

verb

 

1. 1.

   envy (someone) the possession or enjoyment of (something).

   "she begrudged Martin his affluence"

   synonyms:

   envy, resent, grudge "she begrudged Brian his affluence"

2. 2.

   When a NBA fan refuses to acknowledge that a Free Angency allows player collectively bargained rights to ply their trade with any team that can meet their requested compensation under the rules of the salary cap.

   "nobody begrudges a single penny spent on health"

   synonyms:

   resent, feel aggrieved about, feel bitter about, be annoyed about, be resentful of, grudge, mind, object to, take exception to, regret "don't begrudge the Lebron"

[Guest]

Don't be that guy, @HawkItus.  The discussion isn't about what they have a right to do.  We all understand and accept what they have a right to do.

[Diesel]

I don't see this changing the way that the League offers free agency. 

Why?

The League uses money as an incentive to stay.

The problem with that is that superstar players can find other venues to make money.  Let's take CP3 for example.  The Clipps undoubtedly will be able to offer FA CP3 the most money... But he knows that staying there will do him no good as far as winning a championship go.   The lost of money for him is meaningless compared to his legacy.. when State Farm will pay him Millions of Dollars to be their spokesperson.

The real incentive for some of these players is CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Now for candyass guys who are not really superstars..i.e. Al Horford, they follow the money.  But for these once in a generation stars who are allstars all the time and can lead a team to a championship, they have to contend with the notion that they will have to find a way to compete with a superteam.   NONE Of them want to be Barkley or Ewing.

 

 

 

[HawkItus]

13 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Don't be that guy, @HawkItus.  The discussion isn't about what they have a right to do.  We all understand and accept what they have a right to do.

Obviously  we all don't if it is being intimated that he abused the system or finagled his way into a loaded team.   It is the system and if he is going to be forced to accept gross underpayment he might as well be under payed  in the best of circumstances.  

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

In GS's case move to San Fran and price out your original die-hard fans.  I swear the lower bowls of Oracle have replaced all the Blacks with Asians and senior citizen aged White couples who won't be caught dead without full business attire under their free T-shirts.  Nothing against those folks at all, but that homecourt advantage pales to what it was before their first ring.

BAM! There it is! Fans of the Warriors in the Bay Area are 87% new fans. Just ask me....I've lived here for 31 years. You think Joe Shmo was walking down the street in a Warrior jersey in 2010...nah...

 

Now you got a bunch of morons who don't know the first thing about basketball wearing the gear because everyone is wearing it.

 

I honestly understand why the cult culture is able to be effective. Lol. I have about 7 friends who were Warriors fans since the late 80's.... other than that...many acquaintances who are all of a sudden basketball experts and just repeat what they hear without knowing what it even means.

 

Annoying to the fullest. 

[Thomas]

28 minutes ago, Diesel said:

But for these once in a generation stars who are allstars all the time and can lead a team to a championship, they have to contend with the notion that they will have to find a way to compete with a superteam.   NONE Of them want to be Barkley or Ewing.

Kinda sad but very true. So close they could taste it but never ever did.

[AHF]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Now... to the topic.   Superteams are not new.  The Celtics and the Lakers have what 31 championships between them.   Those early Boston championships were superteams.  I think what has pissed off the basketball purist is that Superteams used to be built by GMs.  Even up to the 2nd Big three in Boston (KG, Pierce, and Allen).  

100% on point.  And I'll say this for my perspective.  There is a huge difference for fans where GMs are bulding superteams with smart trades and smart drafting and where players are colluding to do it.

First, it isn't clear the players have a right to do it.  They are clearly colluding for future moves while they are under contract with their current teams which is a violation of the rules.  But the NBA does not want put black hats anymore than already exist on their best players so they are sweeping it under the rug.  

Second, the huge difference is that any team can build with smart GMing and smart drafting.  The Spurs, Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, etc. have all done it with true dynasty periods in their history for example.  The opportunity is there for all teams and the playing field is level.  Get lucky, manage intelligently and you too can be a champion.  During this era where the players are making those calls, however, then you foreclose that hope and start writing off your chances to truly compete both for the present and the future.  The playing field is not level and it comes down to things that cannot be controlled by your team so you are just #*$$ out of luck.

I do agree with Hawkitus that the league and NBAPA have brought this upon the fans by agreeing to underpay the top players so more money goes to the lesser players which then incents the top players to hit the "Easy" button on rings. When their pay is capped at roughly the same number regardless of where they play might as well line yourself up to be a prohibitive favorite for a ring.  The league and players association are reaping what they sowed and it sucks for the fans of the game.

[sturt]

48 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Superteams are not new.

Right. For virtually all of NBA history, "superteams" aka, teams featuring 3 or more of that era's high-tier players, have been around.

The point being, this isn't about whining about superteams... but rather, their origin.

Through the ages, they've evolved within a draft system and a trade system and, given the cap, a free agency system that are built on a principle that every team has equal opportunity to build a superteam.

And the bottom-line point being... players manipulating the system to result in a superteam (that advantages their status and endorsements, of course) is new.

[Guest]

Dangit, which one-a y'all wound up @AHF and @sturt again.  So many words .....

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Here's the hilarious thing.

Fans ( especially Atlanta Hawks fans ) always want their "star" player to take less money on a mega deal, so that more money is available to sign other good role players.

But when a true superstar player like Durant may do this, in order to keep the Warriors together, he's now "circumventing the system and the rules".  Can't have it both ways folks.   

The new NBA salary structure assumed that superstar players would all take MAX dollars over teaming up with each other for less money.  But when you're NBA legacy is on the line, and you're Kevin Durant, would you give up 30 - 60 million to win a few championships?

 Especially when you're only 28 years old now and have already made 100 million in your career?

As for Lebron . . . he told EVERYBODY back in January that the Cavs needed more.  That they needed "a f-cking playmaker".  That they're "top heavy".  The following clip is right after they lost to the Pelicans in January . . . without Anthony Davis.  Kyrie scored 49 points in this game.  Lebron had 26 pts - 10 rebs - 12 assists . . but played 44 minutes.  Even Love chipped in for 22 points.

But they got eaten alive on defense.  

The Cavs afterwards, would then add Kyle Korver and Deron Williams.  But both of these players can't bring consistent offense and were below average defensive players.  For the Cavs to have a shot in these Finals, the role players would have to play damn near perfect games.  But even that wasn't enough.  Kyle misses a wide open potential game clinching 3, which led to Durant knocking down a 3 at the other end to give Golden State the lead.

The main issue with Cleveland in this series, is that they need some young energy off the bench that could come in, play tenacious defense, and make a few timely buckets on the offensive end to take all of the scoring pressure off of Lebron and Kyrie.  Ironically, if they had our two young wings ( Prince and Bembry ), I think they could help the Cavs tremendously.   And the loss of Dellavedova was MUCH BIGGER than what people realized.

This series has actually given me more respect for Lebron James, because he's giving it his all.  But even he knows that it is not enough.  And he told everybody this 5 months ago, despite all of the "experts" trying to clown him for wanting the "best players".  Only Shaq defended Lebron.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I mean, dang.  Back when Josh Smith was perceived to be good, the pipe dream around here was to get him to "recruit" Dwight Howard.  So if it were the Hawks who were able to sign both Smith and Howard to discounted deals in the summer of 2013, while also keeping Joe Johnson around, would Hawks fans been whining and complaining if we threw this team out on the floor in the 2013 season?

 

PG - Teague

G - Johnson

F - Smith

F - Horford

C - Howard

 

Maybe that squad isn't good enough to win anything.  But what if it were? Would Hawks fans be complaining how guys who wanted to play with each other, took less money to do it, in order to win?

 

 

 

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Here's the hilarious thing.

Fans ( especially Atlanta Hawks fans ) always want their "star" player to take less money on a mega deal, so that more money is available to sign other good role players.

But when a true superstar player like Durant may do this, in order to keep the Warriors together, he's now "circumventing the system and the rules".  Can't have it both ways folks.   

I don't think you've been reading my points.  Durant doing that is in no way circumventing the system and the rules.  It is expressly encouraged by the current system.

The only potential rule breaking is if he was talking with people on the GS payroll while he was still under contract with OKC ala LeBron and Bosh.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I mean, dang.  Back when Josh Smith was perceived to be good, the pipe dream around here was to get him to "recruit" Dwight Howard.  So if it were the Hawks who were able to sign both Smith and Howard to discounted deals in the summer of 2013, while also keeping Joe Johnson around, would Hawks fans been whining and complaining if we threw this team out on the floor in the 2013 season?

 

PG - Teague

G - Johnson

F - Smith

F - Horford

C - Howard

 

Maybe that squad isn't good enough to win anything.  But what if it were? Would Hawks fans be complaining how guys who wanted to play with each other, took less money to do it, in order to win?

 

 

 

While the rules are in place that encourage the "Superfriends" model of ring winning, every team and fan base will want to see it happen for their team even while admitting it isn't healthy for the game.  The vast majority of disintereted fans will see whatever next Superfriends team forms and shake their heads in disgust.  Until the rules change, everyone will try to line things up to win for themselves even if they don't like it.  No one is passing on a Durant and LeBron team-up if they can make it happen even if the rest of the league's fan bases are turned off by this weak behavior.

[sturt]

24 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I mean, dang.  Back when Josh Smith was perceived to be good, the pipe dream around here was to get him to "recruit" Dwight Howard.  So if it were the Hawks who were able to sign both Smith and Howard to discounted deals in the summer of 2013, while also keeping Joe Johnson around, would Hawks fans been whining and complaining if we threw this team out on the floor in the 2013 season?

 

PG - Teague

G - Johnson

F - Smith

F - Horford

C - Howard

 

Maybe that squad isn't good enough to win anything.  But what if it were? Would Hawks fans be complaining how guys who wanted to play with each other, took less money to do it, in order to win?

 

 

 

It's a valid question, "would Hawks fans" have been complaining.

Essentially, by asking the question, the point seems to be, "If you wouldn't complain about that, then you shouldn't be complaining about this," which is rooted in the idea that credibility demands that we not cherry pick when integrity should matter.

I agree, credibility demands that we not cherry pick when integrity should matter. It should always matter.

So, if the same shoe in CLE or MIA or GSW were applied to our foot--you put forward Smoove, Howard and Joe, but then recognize those might not be equivalent, so you suggest (which I agree is fair enough, for the purposes of your question) that we assume that they were equivalent for the sake of argument--would those people defending ATL's good fortune be in the right(?).

But that can't be answered until this is:  "Equivalent for the sake of argument" to which of the other three?"

All three situations are somewhat different, even though in ways they are also connected. The initial situation (MIA) gave rise to the second situation's (CLE) be possible; and the first two, by his own admission, gave Durant the precedent/license to change his mind and pursue it. But only the initial situation was an actual one where 3 players together colluded to take smaller salaries in the pursuit of stacking a team and chasing a ring for their selfish benefits.

So, if we compare the hypothetical to MIA, what's missing is Joe was already under contract, and not to be disregarded, both Josh and Dwight are from ATL. So, you already had two players playing here, and all that actually was going to occur in some ATL fans' dreams at the time was that Dwight would accept a smaller salary to play for his home team.

Not the same.

The current CLE roster is the result of high draft picks obtained by that team by being so naturally bad given the talent vacuum left in LBJ's wake. So, really, too unique to begin to force a comparison.

Then we come to GSW.

That's the most relevant comparison, because they developed their roster through legitimate means, only to have a superstar drop in their collective lap. It's a little worse than this idea of a younger Magic superstar Dwight Howard dropping in our lap because of the lack of a home town aspect... but with that caveat, it's comparable.

Notice, then... I don't know about other Hawks fans (I don't keep a record, of course), but I for one haven't actually been specifically critical of GSW. They did everything right, and then just happened to be at the right place at the right time such that a superstar wanted a ring and all the endorsements and all of the glory that goes with that so bad, he decided to sign with them.

My criticism where that team is concerned is only directed at Durant himself. There is no other way to interpret his decision but that it is outright blatant self-promoting ring-chasing, having no previous connection in any way to that city or franchise. As far as I know, he couldn't even claim that he'd played AAU ball with any of his new teammates, but someone could correct me on that.

So, to answer the question... GSW fans have nothing to apologize for, and neither would ATL fans in the question @TheNorthCydeRises presents, imo.