Poetic justice

[sturt]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Dangit, which one-a y'all wound up @AHF and @sturt again.  So many words .....

Be nice.

Every board needs its variety of humor, casual conversation, and reasoned and thorough observations/analysis.

So, don't go all high brow and snooty on us who just do the humor thing. We matter, too!!!

;)

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, sturt said:

Be nice.

Every board needs its variety of humor, casual conversation, and reasoned and thorough observations/analysis.

So, don't go all high brow and snooty on us who just do the humor thing. We matter, too!!!

;)

@kg01 needs a timeout. After all this Warrior bs i may put myself in the corner too even though you all know that nobody puts me in the corner..:-|

[AHF]

30 minutes ago, sturt said:

It's a valid question, "would Hawks fans" have been complaining.

Essentially, by asking the question, the point seems to be, "If you wouldn't complain about that, then you shouldn't be complaining about this," which is rooted in the idea that credibility demands that we not cherry pick when integrity should matter.

I agree, credibility demands that we not cherry pick when integrity should matter. It should always matter.

Your whole post was very good (like it).  Just wanted to single this out to make a quick point.  IMO, people can simultaneously recognize that the system is bad and enjoy it if the system happens to work out in their favor.

Fans will always want their teams to succeed in whatever rule set is currently applicable in the league.  They will cheer their team on regardless of whether the rule set is good or bad.  It is simply irrelevant to the conversation of whether the system is working properly whether or not Miami fans liked it when Bosh, Wade and LeBron colluded.  It is as predictable as the sun rising that they will cheer for a championship contender regardless of whether NBA fans as a whole are well served by the system.

A lot of Philly fans hated the tank job they have done in recent years but if their current and upcoming bunch of lottery picks pans out, they will unite in cheering them on to victory regardless of  whether a system that rewards intentional losing is a good or bad thing.  It just really doesn't matter, IMO.

[sturt]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

Your whole post was very good (like it).  Just wanted to single this out to make a quick point.  IMO, people can simultaneously recognize that the system is bad and enjoy it if the system happens to work out in their favor.

Not putting words in @TheNorthCydeRises keyboard hopefully, but I think he might respond that he was only arguing they can do that... but they can't be considered consistent (and thus can't be given the credibility that goes with consistency) if they do that.

I think of it like this: It's like back when there were people advocating that hotels shouldn't be allowed to have pay per view porn, but... enjoying that, as you put it, "the system happened to work out in their favor" anytime they happened to be staying in one.

(Edit: And thanks for the compliment, btw.)

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, sturt said:

Not putting words in @TheNorthCydeRises keyboard hopefully, but I think he might respond that he was only arguing they can do that... but they can't be considered consistent (and thus can't be given the credibility that goes with consistency) if they do that.

I think of it like this: It's like back when there were people advocating that hotels shouldn't be allowed to have pay per view porn, but... enjoying that, as you put it, "the system happened to work out in their favor" anytime they happened to be staying in one.

(Edit: And thanks for the compliment, btw.)

I think asking a bunch of fanatics (where the word fan comes from) to be intellectual consistent is asking too much given human nature.  People irrationally love their team and hate rivals.  That is part of the joy of sports.

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

What we witnessed last night was the cornerstone of a MAJOR landscape change in the NBA. Cleveland with all their players put their best foot forward and gave it their all to get back in this series on their home floor, but they still fell short.... guarantee you major moves are made by top market teams this offseason just to get closer to GSW. I'm talking trades,signings,sign and trades,etc. teams will be desperate to try and makeup for the gap between them And gsw 

[HawkItus]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

It's a valid question, "would Hawks fans" have been complaining.

Essentially, by asking the question, the point seems to be, "If you wouldn't complain about that, then you shouldn't be complaining about this," which is rooted in the idea that credibility demands that we not cherry pick when integrity should matter.

I agree, credibility demands that we not cherry pick when integrity should matter. It should always matter.

So, if the same shoe in CLE or MIA or GSW were applied to our foot--you put forward Smoove, Howard and Joe, but then recognize those might not be equivalent, so you suggest (which I agree is fair enough, for the purposes of your question) that we assume that they were equivalent for the sake of argument--would those people defending ATL's good fortune be in the right(?).

But that can't be answered until this is:  "Equivalent for the sake of argument" to which of the other three?"

All three situations are somewhat different, even though in ways they are also connected. The initial situation (MIA) gave rise to the second situation's (CLE) be possible; and the first two, by his own admission, gave Durant the precedent/license to change his mind and pursue it. But only the initial situation was an actual one where 3 players together colluded to take smaller salaries in the pursuit of stacking a team and chasing a ring for their selfish benefits.

So, if we compare the hypothetical to MIA, what's missing is Joe was already under contract, and not to be disregarded, both Josh and Dwight are from ATL. So, you already had two players playing here, and all that actually was going to occur in some ATL fans' dreams at the time was that Dwight would accept a smaller salary to play for his home team.

Not the same.

The current CLE roster is the result of high draft picks obtained by that team by being so naturally bad given the talent vacuum left in LBJ's wake. So, really, too unique to begin to force a comparison.

Then we come to GSW.

That's the most relevant comparison, because they developed their roster through legitimate means, only to have a superstar drop in their collective lap. It's a little worse than this idea of a younger Magic superstar Dwight Howard dropping in our lap because of the lack of a home town aspect... but with that caveat, it's comparable.

Notice, then... I don't know about other Hawks fans (I don't keep a record, of course), but I for one haven't actually been specifically critical of GSW. They did everything right, and then just happened to be at the right place at the right time such that a superstar wanted a ring and all the endorsements and all of the glory that goes with that so bad, he decided to sign with them.

My criticism where that team is concerned is only directed at Durant himself. There is no other way to interpret his decision but that it is outright blatant self-promoting ring-chasing, having no previous connection in any way to that city or franchise. As far as I know, he couldn't even claim that he'd played AAU ball with any of his new teammates, but someone could correct me on that.

So, to answer the question... GSW fans have nothing to apologize for, and neither would ATL fans in the question @TheNorthCydeRises presents, imo.

You are mistaken Boston started this.  Lebron was rolling  along with washed up Shaq and others.  Boston brought in Garnett and Allen which knocked off Lebrons ascension to the title.   I'm sure in his mind he was thinking this isn't fair.  My team cannot get two such  players through this system.  Ainge got a dummy deal from Mchale.   So guess what?  Lebron, Wade, and Bosh conj our up there own big 3.  And the arms race leads us to today.  Hell we did it here with Nique Moses and Theus(Atlanta Sports dictated this was doomed from the start) http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/9/5/4696044/nba-atlanta-hawks-dominique-wilkins-reggie-theus

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by HawkItus

[sturt]

14 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

You are mistaken Boston started this.  Lebron was rolling  along with washed up Shaq and others.  Boston brought in Garnett and Allen which knocked off Lebrons ascension to the title.   I'm sure in his mind he was thinking this isn't fair.  My team cannot get two such  players through this system.  Ainge got a dummy deal from Mchale.   So guess what?  Lebron, Wade, and Bosh conj our up there own big 3.  And the arms race leads us to today.  Hell we did it here with Nique Moses and Theus(Atlanta Sports dictated this was doomed from the start) http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/9/5/4696044/nba-atlanta-hawks-dominique-wilkins-reggie-theus

 

No. Not the same. (This is why this thread is important because some maybe just aren't old enough to recall and understand the crux of the matter.)

Boston "brought in" Garnett and Allen, yes.

They traded for them.

There was no player manipulation of the system.

Completely legit, just like every other so-called superteam of the past... one GM being smarter than another GM is not what we're talking about here. That's always been part of the game.

[HawkItus]

11 minutes ago, sturt said:

No. Not the same. (This is why this thread is important because some maybe just aren't old enough to recall and understand the crux of the matter.)

Boston "brought in" Garnett and Allen, yes.

They traded for them.

There was no player manipulation of the system.

Completely legit, just like every other so-called superteam of the past... one GM being smarter than another GM is not what we're talking about here. That's always been part of the game.

See I reject that term legit.   Garnett  had a no trade clause.  Allen agreeing to come to Boston if Garnett came is what turned the key.  Ainge and McHale were buddies.   He wouldn't trade Garnett to anyone else.   It was definitely a "work" but yes technically legit.  As was that Miami team.   Guys were free agents.  Wade, Bosh, and Lebron were free to negotiate amongst themselves.  Your bias does not change this fact.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

 

 

I do agree with Hawkitus that the league and NBAPA have brought this upon the fans by agreeing to underpay the top players so more money goes to the lesser players which then incents the top players to hit the "Easy" button on rings. When their pay is capped at roughly the same number regardless of where they play might as well line yourself up to be a prohibitive favorite for a ring.  The league and players association are reaping what they sowed and it sucks for the fans of the game.

Quote

100% on point.

Yet No Like?

 

The payment of lesser players is no related.  Top players will always be paid more.  This is about the CHIP.

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

Right. For virtually all of NBA history, "superteams" aka, teams featuring 3 or more of that era's high-tier players, have been around.

The point being, this isn't about whining about superteams... but rather, their origin.

Through the ages, they've evolved within a draft system and a trade system and, given the cap, a free agency system that are built on a principle that every team has equal opportunity to build a superteam.

And the bottom-line point being... players manipulating the system to result in a superteam (that advantages their status and endorsements, of course) is new.

I'm sure I said that somewhere in the post that you cropped out.

[HawkItus]

Quote

And Garnett was growing more intrigued with the Celtics. First, he had never played with teammates as talented as Pierce and Allen, with whom he could instantly contend for the Eastern Conference championship. Second, he had a friendship with Allen dating back to their high school days in South Carolina. "I didn't speak publicly, really didn't say too much to my friends or any of that," says Garnett. "But I really tried to be comfortable with seeing myself in a Celtics jersey."

 

He had no idea how Pierce felt about it, however. Garnett has an off-season home in Malibu, and before the draft—amid widespread reports of his possible trade to Boston—he had run into Pierce in a pickup game at UCLA, where Pierce, an L.A. native, is a regular. Yet Pierce had nothing to say to KG about their potentially becoming teammates. "He didn't even bring it up," says Garnett, confused by Pierce's seeming lack of enthusiasm.

 

The truth was, Pierce did not give any credence to the rumors, having been let down too many times by talk of everyone from Baron Davis to Allen Iverson coming to his rescue in Boston. So he rolled his eyes at the buzz about Garnett joining the Celtics. "I just thought there was no possible way," says Pierce, "and left it at that."

See the maneuvering?  These Garnett is under contract and trying to chat up Pierce.   Not to mention the article goes into the friendship of Ainge and McHale.    Its the same game the players are just more savvy today and you old timers don't like it.  These players aren't slaves.  They don't have to play the position players used to play in the business.  Might as well stop crying about it.  Between controlling their minutes and their FA you are starting to seem like you would like the NBA commissioner to be a tyrant.  It won't work now a days.

[sturt]

@HawkItus, I suppose you're going to ignore the obvious here, but "legit" or whatever term you're comfortable with... there IS a difference between GMs making bad decisions and players taking it upon themselves to manipulate the system. Now c'mon. Allen nor Garnett could arrive in Boston if the GMs in MIN and SEA hadn't perceived it was to their own teams' (and thus, their own self-interest) benefit to make those moves. We've always had GMs who swung bad deals. It didn't begin with Boston. Nonsense.

 

[sturt]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I'm sure I said that somewhere in the post that you cropped out.

Yeah, you did.

[Diesel]

41 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

You are mistaken Boston started this.  Lebron was rolling  along with washed up Shaq and others.  Boston brought in Garnett and Allen which knocked off Lebrons ascension to the title.   I'm sure in his mind he was thinking this isn't fair.  My team cannot get two such  players through this system.  Ainge got a dummy deal from Mchale.   So guess what?  Lebron, Wade, and Bosh conj our up there own big 3.  And the arms race leads us to today.  Hell we did it here with Nique Moses and Theus(Atlanta Sports dictated this was doomed from the start) http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/9/5/4696044/nba-atlanta-hawks-dominique-wilkins-reggie-theus

 

Not so quick my friend.. Boston knocked off Lebron in that one year, but the next year, Lebron beat them in the ECF to go on to the Finals and LOSE convincingly to the Spurs.  Lebron is a knockoff of Jordan.  He wants to be the GOAT but he doesn't have the competitive spirit of a MJ so he would rather cut corners and make back room deals and do handshakes and manipulate markets.  That's not Boston's fault.   Boston's team was built by good GMing.  Lebron's teams were built by collusion. 

 

[benhillboy]

4 hours ago, Spud2Nique said:

BAM! There it is! Fans of the Warriors in the Bay Area are 87% new fans. Just ask me....I've lived here for 31 years. You think Joe Shmo was walking down the street in a Warrior jersey in 2010...nah...

 

Now you got a bunch of morons who don't know the first thing about basketball wearing the gear because everyone is wearing it.

 

I honestly understand why the cult culture is able to be effective. Lol. I have about 7 friends who were Warriors fans since the late 80's.... other than that...many acquaintances who are all of a sudden basketball experts and just repeat what they hear without knowing what it even means.

 

Annoying to the fullest. 

So that's where the brunt of your hate for them (or more so the "fans") comes.  I can dig it.

They used to bust the decibel meter in there going back to the 8th seed upset team, damn near everyone in the building was standing for half the game and chanting "defense!" regardless if the Dubs were up 20.  This new cosmo crowd only cheers kinda loud for highlight reel plays and haven't the slightest clue what a pin-down or a hedge is after watching it for 3 hours.  I feel for the patrons who can't afford those premium seats now after two championship ticket markups and new digs.  On the other hand I can't knock an owner for capitalizing.  Or maybe I can a little when he's a dweeb like Lacob.

Edited June 8, 2017 by benhillboy

[sturt]

6 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

See the maneuvering?  These Garnett is under contract and trying to chat up Pierce.   Not to mention the article goes into the friendship of Ainge and McHale.    Its the same game the players are just more savvy today and you old timers don't like it.  These players aren't slaves.  They don't have to play the position players used to play in the business.  Might as well stop crying about it.  Between controlling their minutes and their FA you are starting to seem like you would like the NBA commissioner to be a tyrant.  It won't work now a days.

Actually, I don't. Where do you see it? Players have always talked with each other. Players have not always been able to collude with each other to, without practically any assistance, play on the same team.

Why should I stop crying about it (as you put it) when I consider it unacceptable and a pox on the integrity of the game?

Nah. More nonsense.

[HawkItus]

4 minutes ago, sturt said:

Actually, I don't. Where do you see it? Players have always talked with each other. Players have not always been able to collude with each other to, without practically any assistance, play on the same team.

Why should I stop crying about it (as you put it) when I consider it unacceptable and a pox on the integrity of the game?

Nah. More nonsense.

It wasn't collusion

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/sports/basketball/13nba.html

 

[sturt]

3 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

It wasn't collusion

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/sports/basketball/13nba.html

 

By the technical definition, it was collusion until that time that the secret/rumor was confirmed.

But then, I'm fine if if you prefer that the verb "conspire" or something else in that vein.

Rose is still a rose by any other name, and all of that.

The point remains. There is a difference in what LBJ and Bosh did in going to MIA to join Wade, and what any other players at any other point in NBA history did in order to put themselves in a position to win a ring.

[sturt]

52 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

Its the same game the players are just more savvy today and you old timers don't like it.  These players aren't slaves.  They don't have to play the position players used to play in the business.  

Not to hijack a thread I started, but it's occurred to me before to wonder if we'll ever get to a place where players actually gain some equity in the teams they play for, with the caveat that some vesting stipulation would be involved. That is, it's always seemed to me there's some clear validity in saying that a franchise today is what it is based on how its previous players performed (and ostensibly, improved while they wore that uniform)... and that the players union really should look at advocating some way that a player could take less money but depending on their contribution to the value of their team, he could gain a piece of ownership.