If Philly made the same offer for Dennis, would you take it?

[Admin]

18 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

But it's not like he regressed.  Considering that first year was a 60 win team that was top 3 in the league in 3 point percentage and last year we were one of the worst i'd say that assists holding steady was a friggin miracle.   

Technically he has regressed a little in some areas but even if you want to say that he hasn't, do you see remaining at the same level from year 2 through year 4 to be a sign of good things to come? Do you genuinely think that he's going to make a jump into the top 20 PGs?

No idea who the author is as it's just some Bleacher Report article but his commentary pretty much sums Dennis up for me.

Quote

24. Dennis Schröder, Atlanta Hawks (Previous Ranking: No. 17)

Age: 23

Per-Game Stats: 18.0 points, 3.1 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.2 blocks

Advanced Metrics: 16.3 PER, minus-2.47 RPM, minus-32.46 TPA

As the season has progressed, it's become increasingly clear Dennis Schröder isn't the catalyst for the Atlanta Hawks offense, so much as a contributing piece who puts up solid numbers because of the scheme. To that point, the team has produced a net rating of 1.3, per nbawowy.com, when both he and Paul Millsap are on the floor, but that number drops to minus-9.7 when he's playing without the All-Star power forward. Schröder still has plenty of growing to do on both ends, even if his first season running the show hasn't been a complete failure.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2700139-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-point-guards

[Admin]

25 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Not sure why the playoffs this year are being ignored since they are the most important numbers, when it counts most that is. So here is what the link shows his entire career in the playoffs. Improvement every year in the playoffs. Assists pushing eight and assists/turnover ratio is 4.5 against the Wiz.  

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3032979/seasontype/3/dennis-Schröder

SEASON	TEAM	GP	GS	MIN	FGM-A	FG%	3PM-A	3P%	FTM-A	FT%	OR	DR	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
'13-'14	ATL	2	0	3.5	1.0-1.0	1.000	0.5-0.5	1.000	0.0-0.0	.000	0.0	1.0	1.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.5	0.0	2.5
'14-'15	ATL	16	0	18.1	3.5-9.1	.386	0.5-2.1	.235	1.5-1.8	.857	0.3	1.5	1.8	3.9	0.0	0.6	1.8	1.7	9.0
'15-'16	ATL	10	0	19.1	4.7-10.4	.452	1.2-3.5	.343	1.1-1.3	.846	0.6	1.3	1.9	3.6	0.1	0.4	2.4	2.1	11.7
'16-'17	ATL	6	6	35.2	8.3-18.3	.455	2.8-6.7	.425	5.2-6.2	.838	0.7	1.7	2.3	7.7	0.0	1.0	3.2	1.7	24.7
Career		34	6	20.6	4.6-10.6	.429	1.1-3.2	.345	1.9-2.3	.846	0.4	1.4	1.9	4.2	0.0	0.6	2.1	1.7	12.2

Wait so his handful of playoff games in which we lost 4-2 is the most important part?  If you can't look at his overall body of work and instead want to look at a tiny subset of what he should be evaluated on then there's no sense in continuing this.

[Thomas]

3 minutes ago, Dolfan23 said:

Wait so his handful of playoff games in which we lost 4-2 is the most important part?  If you can't look at his overall body of work and instead want to look at a tiny subset of what he should be evaluated on then there's no sense in continuing this.

Your right because this year's playoff series is the most important series in his NBA career and our wings lost the series not Dennis (we shot 30% from three), he was the best player on the floor for us which says a lot since Sap was on the floor as well. 

[DBac]

The biggest adjustment Dennis can make is packing on strength while keeping his speed.. that'll help him become a better finisher around the rim and it'll help him get to the line more. 

[Admin]

1 minute ago, Thomas said:

Your right because this year's playoff series is the most important series in his NBA career and our wings lost the series not Dennis (we shot 30% from three), he was the best player on the floor for us which says a lot since Sap was on the floor as well. 

I guess that Dwight Howard is now a respectable FT shooter since he shot 63% in the playoffs this year? Or that Delaney is our best player since he had a PER of 105.5 in this years playoffs? In that case Dennis would be our 3rd worst defender on the team based on this years playoffs and his defensive rating. 

[Admin]

3 minutes ago, DBac said:

The biggest adjustment Dennis can make is packing on strength while keeping his speed.. that'll help him become a better finisher around the rim and it'll help him get to the line more. 

That would help but it's probably not going to happen. He's put on a grand total of 3 lbs since he was drafted 4 years ago. 

I wouldn't hate it if he looked to pass the ball or develop a pull up game. 4 years in the league and he hasn't done either yet. 

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, Dolfan23 said:

I guess that Dwight Howard is now a respectable FT shooter since he shot 63% in the playoffs this year? Or that Delaney is our best player since he had a PER of 105.5 in this years playoffs? In that case Dennis would be our 3rd worst defender on the team based on this years playoffs and his defensive rating. 

Thought you were through with this. The playoff stats must be too much of a shock.

[Admin]

Just now, Thomas said:

Thought you were through with this. The playoff stats much be too much of a shock.

I was. But you made such a compelling argument about 6 games and our 2-4 record in those games as a determining factor in evaluating a player that I simply couldn't ignore the math behind Delaney being our best player and Dennis being an abysmal defender. 

[Thomas]

1 minute ago, Dolfan23 said:

I was. But you made such a compelling argument about 6 games and our 2-4 record in those games as a determining factor in evaluating a player that I simply couldn't ignore the math behind Delaney being our best player and Dennis being an abysmal defender. 

Did you actually watch us against the Wiz? 

[Admin]

1 minute ago, Thomas said:

Did you actually watch us against the Wiz? 

I can't remember. Can you link me to the ESPN playoff stats for the Hawks? Maybe that will help my memory. 

[Thomas]

Just now, Dolfan23 said:

I can't remember. Can you link me to the ESPN playoff stats for the Hawks? Maybe that will help my memory. 

Thats not an answer.

[Admin]

1 minute ago, Thomas said:

Thats not an answer.

[DBac]

5 minutes ago, Dolfan23 said:

That would help but it's probably not going to happen. He's put on a grand total of 3 lbs since he was drafted 4 years ago. 

I wouldn't hate it if he looked to pass the ball or develop a pull up game. 4 years in the league and he hasn't done either yet. 

Yeah he doesn't really have the best frame. Unfortunate, I think that's the thing he needs to improve the most.

He's not THAT bad distribution wise. He could stand to develop an offball game, he does tend to get caught asking to get the ball back. But he stands up well in secondary assists and potential assists to other top passers in the league. 

http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/#!?sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season

[Thomas]

So you didn't watch Dennis outperform Sap and everyone else on our unbalanced roster against the Wiz?

[Admin]

6 minutes ago, DBac said:

Yeah he doesn't really have the best frame. Unfortunate, I think that's the thing he needs to improve the most.

He's not THAT bad distribution wise. He could stand to develop an offball game, he does tend to get caught asking to get the ball back. But he stands up well in secondary assists and potential assists to other top passers in the league. 

http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/#!?sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season

He's not bad at distributing but it's not an asset that he possesses either. When he was drafted I had visions of him throwing lob passes and catching guys helping on D and tossing nifty shovel passes for easy baskets.  Especially when we got Dwight last year and Teague was traded I thought for sure that we'd be the new lob city... but Dennis just doesn't have the vision or the instincts to be that type of PG and nothing is going to change that. The team just has to decide if they want to continue to build the franchise around a score first PG who has very little game between layup and 3 or do they want to try and find a pass 1st PG who may be able to run our system better. 

[DBac]

1 hour ago, Dolfan23 said:

He's not bad at distributing but it's not an asset that he possesses either. When he was drafted I had visions of him throwing lob passes and catching guys helping on D and tossing nifty shovel passes for easy baskets.  Especially when we got Dwight last year and Teague was traded I thought for sure that we'd be the new lob city... but Dennis just doesn't have the vision or the instincts to be that type of PG and nothing is going to change that. The team just has to decide if they want to continue to build the franchise around a score first PG who has very little game between layup and 3 or do they want to try and find a pass 1st PG who may be able to run our system better. 

Oh yeah Dennis isn't that kind of passer. That's where losing Horford hurt the most I think and its why I think we're gonna be going hard for a playmaking big man.

Yeah I wouldn't mind going for a different archetype of PG but Dennis is nice enough. I go back and forward on whether I could see him on a championship team, if he takes a leap this year then I'm cool with building around him.

[Admin]

1 minute ago, DBac said:

Oh yeah Dennis isn't that kind of passer. That's where losing Horford hurt the most I think and its why I think we're gonna be going hard for a playmaking big man.

Yeah I wouldn't mind going for a different archetype of PG but Dennis is nice enough. I go back and forward on whether I could see him on a championship team, if he takes a leap this year then I'm cool with building around him.

Question is if you had a chance to get one of the top PGs / players this year for Dennis would you do it? Since he's our PG I hope that he will take another step forward this year but I'm not confident that he has that in him. 

[DBac]

1 minute ago, Dolfan23 said:

Question is if you had a chance to get one of the top PGs / players this year for Dennis would you do it? Since he's our PG I hope that he will take another step forward this year but I'm not confident that he has that in him. 

Philly showed that it's hard to develop young guys without a nice PG. So that makes it hard for me to want to get up and grab Jon Isaac because he has a lot of developing to do and I'm not sure that Malcolm Delaney is the guy to get him there.

Fultz and Lonzo are basically out of it, I wouldn't run the risk of trading Ntilikina for Dennis.. so basically it's just Dennis Smith who I LOVE. I think he can be a star with the right coaching staff and he's exactly the type of ball player the Hawks need to get the city excited. But ultimately he has red flags of his own (ACL in high school, effort)  and I can't see us trading a young PG to go up and get a young PG. He would have to be someone we absolutely covet.

Without another first round pick, I don't think I'd do it. If we got the offer that Boston got but less protection on the Lakers pick then I'd do it. 

 

[StephenHawking]

Man oh man. Those arguments on Dennis are wrong in so many ways...

[Admin]

1 minute ago, StephenHawking said:

Man oh man. Those arguments on Dennis are wrong in so many ways...

Care to elaborate? My argument is completely backed up by the stats I posted. It wasn't based on my opinion or some type of emotions. I like Dennis a lot but I see his limitations as a player and just like it was with Teague it's going to be the same with Dennis.