Concessions for Dennis.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, CP61 said:

Yeah I don't get most Hawks fans. I stayed off this board for years because everyone is so pessimistic. I haven't seen that or of any other fanbases. It's all "woe is me" "we can never have anything nice" "we will always be mediocre". I hate it. It's why the only time I come to places like this is during draft season. When people are actually positive.

The last several years there has been a lot of positivity - including coming into last season.  

[Diesel]

On 6/24/2017 at 8:25 PM, StephenHawking said:

I'm just curious what kind of wonders you ask for from a 17th pick. He became the starting PG of a playoff team and made the former allstar pg expendable. He played a solid first season as a starter. Still has lots of potential to grow. 

Nobody knows if he's gon be able to actually reach his potential but at least he has the mentality, the dog in him to try. 

Here's your problem... You don't understand that where he was picked is irrelevant now.  We have made him the only PG on the team, we have paid him well,  and we are now seemingly getting rid of talented players because they don't fit with him.  So  what kind of wonders we expect... we expect him to be a TEAM player.  When you watch GS, you see a gang of TEAM players and that's the secret sauce to their winning.  Maybe Dennis can mature...  However, maturity off the court and maturity on the court are two different things.  It's rare to see a non-PG become a PG in the NBA.  All I'm saying is that for all of the people like yourself who constantly defend Dennis... Let's stop throwing up 6 apg and acting like he's a good PG.  He's not a good PG.... He's a very good OG.  He can score very well.  IF we recognize that fact then maybe we can start to talk about better ways to view this team... like maybe bringing in another player who can run the point and allow Dennis to do what he does best.. drive.

 

[Admin]

I think it's a bit presumptive that we got rid of Dwight simply because of Dennis. I would say it's more likely that we got rid of Dwight because of his behavior in the playoffs and because he really doesn't fit the style of play that we want to play, which is uptempo / pace and space. Now I'm not saying he and Dennis weren't a terrible fit for one another but I doubt that 1 season together and also Dennis' first running the show himself was enough for the team to have to sell Dwight off for pennies on the dollar. 

The real failure was signing Dwight initially while not making certain that Horford was coming back to form the super big 3 with Sap. Losing Al killed us because we needed his passing, screen setting, pick and x ability and mid-range / 3pt game to make us dangerous. The team saw how bad we were with Dwight and decided to simply cut their losses and move on.

Dennis could be at his peak in terms of a variety of skills. I've never seen a PG learn how to be a more natural passer, to have the vision for setting up passes with fakes and other techniques like pure PGs have, and so far he's failed to be an on court leader who truly runs the plays and puts each player in the best position to succeed. I'm confident that he can and will improve on the latter as it's natural for a young PG aim his 1st year running the show to look for their own points vs looking for others 1st. Hopefully in his 2nd year he will be more confident and feel more in control of the offense and hopefully with teammates who are a better fit it will automatically improve his game. 

[AHF]

I don't think for a second that we got rid of Dwight as a concession to Dennis.  I'd say we got rid of Dwight because our coach ended up benching him a lot in the playoffs and because our new GM has won a few championships with a mobile "center" under 6'9'' and didn't want him.

[Watchman]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I don't think for a second that we got rid of Dwight as a concession to Dennis.  I'd say we got rid of Dwight because our coach ended up benching him a lot in the playoffs and because our new GM has won a few championships with a mobile "center" under 6'9'' and didn't want him.

Let him ride the bench then.  Don't accept the other team's garbage and lose 10 spots in the draft order.

 

And the "under 6'9" center" reference signifies we plan on going back to being out-rebounded every game.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Watchman

[Bankingitbig]

5 minutes ago, Watchman said:

Let him ride the bench then.  Don't accept the other team's garbage and lose 10 spots in the draft order.

I disagree. If you're a new GM trying to establish a culture and you see a player such as Dwight not fitting that culture, then it might be best for the long-term development of your younger players to get rid of him. There is no way you would be able to establish the culture you want with a player like Dwight riding the bench. He still thinks he is superstar caliber and the media frenzy of Dwight being benched would be insane. You don't want that negativity in the locker room.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bankingitbig

[Watchman]

Just now, Bankingitbig said:

I disagree. If you're a new GM trying to establish a culture and you see a player such as Dwight not fitting that culture. Then it might be best for the long-term development of your younger players to get rid of him. There is no way you would be able to establish the culture you want with a player like Dwight riding the bench. He still thinks he is superstar caliber and the media frenzy of Dwight being benched would be insane. You don't want that negativity in the locker room.

You don't want 23 year old point guards throwing tantrums and dictating personnel issues either.

[Bankingitbig]

8 minutes ago, Watchman said:

You don't want 23 year old point guards throwing tantrums and dictating personnel issues either.

When has Dennis ever dictated personnel decisions?

What tantrums are you talking about? Are you referring to when he was benched for getting on to Dwight Howard for making a ridiculous outlet pass and turning the ball over instead of doing the smart thing and giving it to the PG that was right next to him?

That is literally the only "tantrum" that Schröder has had that I can think of. Let's not forget this was against the best team in the league and Schröder was playing out of his mind trying to win with his best shooting in a game ever. 23 points in the first half with 4-7 from three. So yea I think I will let it slide... I'd be pissed too if I was playing out of my mind trying to beat the Champions and my Center who doesn't know how to pass throws an awful outlet pass instead of just handing it to me (the PG). Schröder was benched and learned his lesson. Hasn't happened again, move on...

[Lurker]

Like I said, I don't think Dwight Howard not being on the team has anything to do with Dennis Schröder. The point guard's name could be Joe Schmo and I still think Schlenk's number one order on what he was doing would have been to ship off Dwight Howard.

He is seen in that freaking bad of a light.

We really need to sometimes take the other players out of consideration when we do this hypothetical scenario.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Lurker

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Watchman said:

You don't want 23 year old point guards throwing tantrums and dictating personnel issues either.

 

Now you are just making stuff up.  This is less about Dennis and more about not wanting Dwight - plain and simple.

 

[RedDawg#8]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Here's your problem... You don't understand that where he was picked is irrelevant now.  We have made him the only PG on the team, we have paid him well,  and we are now seemingly getting rid of talented players because they don't fit with him.  So  what kind of wonders we expect... we expect him to be a TEAM player.  When you watch GS, you see a gang of TEAM players and that's the secret sauce to their winning.  Maybe Dennis can mature...  However, maturity off the court and maturity on the court are two different things.  It's rare to see a non-PG become a PG in the NBA.  All I'm saying is that for all of the people like yourself who constantly defend Dennis... Let's stop throwing up 6 apg and acting like he's a good PG.  He's not a good PG.... He's a very good OG.  He can score very well.  IF we recognize that fact then maybe we can start to talk about better ways to view this team... like maybe bringing in another player who can run the point and allow Dennis to do what he does best.. drive.

 

Can we stop with this GS nonsense. Please. They have 4 of the top 12 players in the entire NBA. Curry is a once in a generation player, Dennis is not. KD is the 2nd best basketball player on EARTH. Stop acting like they are a group of overachievers that have to rely on one another to  succeed. They could easily go ISO ball with that roster and still win big. We don't have a single player that would start on that team on our roster so it's more than just a Dennis thing when it comes to your argument. 

A better example would be our 2015 ECF team. That was a TEAM that relied on each other. That year was a perfect example of TEAM basketball, and Dennis proved THEN that his style of play was good for a team full of guys that couldn't get their own shots. 

The key is spacing. GS is full of shooters, you have to guard the ENTIRE floor against them. We had shooters in 2015. Not anymore. That's why Dwight is obsolete nowadays. Dwight is an old school center that doesn't fit the current NBA anymore. Rebounding matters, but so does shooting. That has nothing to do with Dennis. It's not Dennis' fault Dwight has never developed an offensive game in his entire career. 

And since you love GS so much, you do realize Curry isn't a natural passer either right? He developed PG skills but he is not a true floor general, just a shooter witg mad handles. Draymond is the PG of that team. I don't see you getting on Curry for being selfish and jacking up 40 foot shots in transition or playing ISO dribbling through 2 and 3 defenders that switch off the pick and roll. Is Curry selfish? No, he is just THAT frickin good. 

Dennis doesn't jack up 40 footers, he doesn't shoot any jumpshot unless he is wide open. He has one of the fastest dribble drives in the NBA and uses that to his advantage. And I've seen him take advantage of his teammates strengths before, but when you have low IQ Bazemore and Howard fumbling around the court even Curry would look a little lost, or have you forgotten how turnover prone your precious Curry can be?

Edited June 26, 2017 by RedDawg#8

[Lurker]

Dwight got more involved with others in while he was on the Hawks but I watched him fumble and drop passes from everyone. I mean, sh**, there's a Shaqtin' a Fool in which Millsap throws him a pass that is perfectly fine and he just drops the ball.

You have to be more observant and not have an agenda at times, and I do know that I have an agenda and I have advertised it. Some things have to be observed without your homer glasses on about so and so and knowing the information about the player is good.

And from what I have read and seen about Dwight, I know he's going to make even more **mature** point guards sick of him.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Lurker

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

I don't think for a second that we got rid of Dwight as a concession to Dennis.  I'd say we got rid of Dwight because our coach ended up benching him a lot in the playoffs and because our new GM has won a few championships with a mobile "center" under 6'9'' and didn't want him.

The whole benching in the playoffs is still about his fit.  Sorry... I watched Dwight played too many games where he had his man "Sealed" and Dennis looked right past him.   Yes, Dennis is not a natural passer, but I think it was something more to this relationship than that.  Now we have fans questioning Dwight's BBIQ (I heard NC's coach just saw that Dwight is one of the smartest Bigmen in Basketball).  We have fans questioning Dwight's ability (8 time allstar and still have athleticism).   For me it comes down to the fact that since we don't have a natural PG we're trying to run a spread offense with all players being a scoring threat.  It's fun but it won't win.  Basketball is still basketball and those positions were developed for a reason.  We will see. 

[Watchman]

7 hours ago, Bankingitbig said:

When has Dennis ever dictated personnel decisions?

What tantrums are you talking about? Are you referring to when he was benched for getting on to Dwight Howard for making a ridiculous outlet pass and turning the ball over instead of doing the smart thing and giving it to the PG that was right next to him?

That is literally the only "tantrum" that Schröder has had that I can think of. Let's not forget this was against the best team in the league and Schröder was playing out of his mind trying to win with his best shooting in a game ever. 23 points in the first half with 4-7 from three. So yea I think I will let it slide... I'd be pissed too if I was playing out of my mind trying to beat the Champions and my Center who doesn't know how to pass throws an awful outlet pass instead of just handing it to me (the PG). Schröder was benched and learned his lesson. Hasn't happened again, move on...

You might have a point if Dennis had never made stupid turnovers.  Unfortunately, he has made a boatload of them. 

Has he been called out in front of the fans and the TV audience by his teammates because of it?  I think not. 

Like I have said, I don't mind that Dwight was moved.  I am utterly disgusted with the garbage we got back and the lower draft pick.  I am stunned that the obvious hypocrisy and double standards about players with bad behavior is still not recognized by people on this board.  That's it. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Watchman

[AHF]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

The whole benching in the playoffs is still about his fit.  

We agree.  Bud thought he didn't fit by season's end and benched him.  The GM thought he didn't fit and traded him in a dump trade.

[hazer]

On 6/25/2017 at 0:14 PM, CP61 said:

Yeah I don't get most Hawks fans. I stayed off this board for years because everyone is so pessimistic. I haven't seen that or of any other fanbases. It's all "woe is me" "we can never have anything nice" "we will always be mediocre". I hate it. It's why the only time I come to places like this is during draft season. When people are actually positive.

I've coined that particular crowd "The Miserable Ones." You know the type, only happy if they have something to bitch about. Something great happens, oh hell no let's pivot to the next negative. Silver linings? The Miserable Ones only seek grey linings. There's  quite a large contingent of them here. Brace yourself, here comes the "We're just realists" and "You're just blindly optimistic" horseshit. In 3...2...1...

[rd79]

22 hours ago, Diesel said:

Here's your problem... You don't understand that where he was picked is irrelevant now.  We have made him the only PG on the team, we have paid him well,  and we are now seemingly getting rid of talented players because they don't fit with him.  So  what kind of wonders we expect... we expect him to be a TEAM player.  When you watch GS, you see a gang of TEAM players and that's the secret sauce to their winning.  Maybe Dennis can mature...  However, maturity off the court and maturity on the court are two different things.  It's rare to see a non-PG become a PG in the NBA.  All I'm saying is that for all of the people like yourself who constantly defend Dennis...

 

Actually, and I mentioned it a zillion times before, Dennis wasn't paid big yet. Hawks will start to do this coming season.

And 2nd, we are defending Dennis because wie are fans of him, and that may be the big difference. For me it looks like some people here act more like consumers than fans. You pay to see the Hawks and spend your time following them and that's why you think they owe you something, some even seem to think they owe you a ship... The only thing I expect from professional athletes is that they do their best to win. And that by the way is why I hate the concept of tanking.

And no one here can deny that Dennis wants to win and shows a lot of effort. As long as he does this I'm fine, but of course I can see flaws in his game and hope he keeps improving.

And when Dwight played without effort because whatever bugged him, he didn't do what I expect from athletes and that's why I'm also fine with him being traded...

[Diesel]

39 minutes ago, rd79 said:

Actually, and I mentioned it a zillion times before, Dennis wasn't paid big yet. Hawks will start to do this coming season.

And 2nd, we are defending Dennis because wie are fans of him, and that may be the big difference. For me it looks like some people here act more like consumers than fans. You pay to see the Hawks and spend your time following them and that's why you think they owe you something, some even seem to think they owe you a ship... The only thing I expect from professional athletes is that they do their best to win. And that by the way is why I hate the concept of tanking.

And no one here can deny that Dennis wants to win and shows a lot of effort. As long as he does this I'm fine, but of course I can see flaws in his game and hope he keeps improving.

And when Dwight played without effort because whatever bugged him, he didn't do what I expect from athletes and that's why I'm also fine with him being traded...

This is the difference between us.  You are a fan of one player.  I am a fan of the team.  And you're right... I have expectations of EVERY PLAYER because I want to seem them Help THE TEAM win.  And so yes... I am critical of Players at time and I am just as critical of the Front Office at times.  Also, I applaud Players at times and I applaud the front office at times.   That's what happens when you are fans of THE TEAM.  

It's like this...  IF Dennis is traded, we will probably never see you again on Hawksquawk.  But us fans of the Hawks will still be here....and we will still be supporting the Team.

Sometimes people on this board get it so confused.  They think that we should be fans of Bad Picks because we picked them.  They think that because we're critical of what the coach or the front office did with one player that we were fans of that one player... NO NO...  When you make a trade like the trade we made with DHoward or Joe Johnson... or when you let a guy like Smith or Teague walk and get nothing in return... then that speaks to why we have to be critical of the Front Office.  IF we were like You rd79.. and fans of those players only... we would have been gone.... and no we are not NEGATIVE.. we want to see our TEAM put  up their best... and we would love to see our team win a Ship.   Oh yeah.. that's the other thing.. I don't know how it is in Germany.. if that's yall's thing.. but us Americans are COMPETITIVE.  That's why every year, we want the Hawks to win a Ship... even if we know it's not possible.

As far as Dennis is concerned.  You say that he shows a lot of effort.  I agree.  However, where is his effort focused... is it focused on making the TEAM better or getting His?  I think when you examine that question, you see the difference between where I stand and where you stand.  You defend him because he puts up good stats.  I criticize him because he put up good stats to the detriment of the TEAM.

 

[Lurker]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

We agree.  Bud thought he didn't fit by season's end and benched him.  The GM thought he didn't fit and traded him in a dump trade.

He meant fit in a different way. He "thinks" that it was about Bud didn't want to see Dennis and Dwight fight in the playoffs.

And sorry, but I still stand by it doesn't matter if the PG's name was Joe Schmo or Steph Curry, Dwight Howard is not on the team regardless for the 2017-2018. Schlenk never wanted him, period.

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, Lurker said:

He meant fit in a different way. He "thinks" that it was about Bud didn't want to see Dennis and Dwight fight in the playoffs.

And sorry, but I still stand by it doesn't matter if the PG's name was Joe Schmo or Steph Curry, Dwight Howard is not on the team regardless for the 2017-2018. Schlenk never wanted him, period.

Schlenk... I don't think anybody here knows anything about Schlenk or his motives.  Before trading Dwight... didn't he say that Dwight had a place on this team?  So out the gate... You can't trust what Schlenk publickly says.  Second... somebody tell me what roadmap has Schlenk laid out about this team.  What is his goal?  You don't know right.. because he hasn't said.  Let me remind you:

 

Babcock:  Star driven team that has young players and we never let our stars lose their value.

BK:  Long, Athletic, Versatile players who can be interchanged.

Sund:  Just want to keep the status quo.

Ferry:  Good Character Guys who play the game the right way. 

BudCox:  Don't know what the hell they want to do.. needs healing. 

Schlenk:  ????

 

Without a vision, the people perish.  So we can talk about the San Antonio way.. we can talk about the Golden State way... I'm still waiting for Schlenk to indicate what he wants this team to be... and just saying we want to be flexible is not saying anything.