Huge possibility Howards locker room presence got him shipped out

[Watchman]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Please reread my post, I wasn't critizing Milsap at all.  I gave him credit for showing up.

Also Dennis score 25 pts per game on 46% shooting in the playoffs.  You have no basis in criticizing him at all!

I read your post as saying Sap and Prince "shat the bed."   I misread it.  Sorry.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Watchman

[hazer]

2 minutes ago, Watchman said:

I read your post as saying Sap and Prince "shat the bed." 

MISread ;)

[Watchman]

Just now, hazer said:

MISread ;)

Yep.

[JTB]

2 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

The thing with Dwight is he's not a bad player per se. 

The problem as anywhere before is that he comes to a team with the attitude of the whole team adjusting towards him rather than adjusting himself to the teams needs.

By that I mean he'd be the greatest PnR threat in the whole league if he'd simply wanted to. And that's what the Hawks needed of him to play PnR defense as well as PnR offense. 

But as we all know he didn't want to so that's why he's in charlotte now.

Exactly! I have no issues with any one defending Howard as long as their telling the truth and truth is exactly what you said. If Howard played the bogut role for the Hawks Howard would have single handedly made the center position relevant again. 

I still believe he can avg 18/12 if he really focused on setting picks and rolling hard to the goal. But he wants post touches! He wants to half ass screens! He wants to take damn 3pt shots next season! ....he wants to do every damn thing that DOES NOT play to his strengths! How crazy is that! Smh

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So if Howard averaged 5 points - 7 rebounds - and 2 blocks, and set screens for our "great shooters" and "slashers". . . he would've made the center position relevant again in Atlanta?

What are you dudes missing?  There is a disconnect somewhere.   If Howard did that ( which is close to what he did in the playoffs ), we win 30 games  . . . tops.

 

Here are our "shooters" from last season . . +2% above league average ( 35.8% ) in GREEN . . +2% above to -2% below league average in YELLOW . .  2% - 5% below league average in ORANGE . . . less than 5% league average in RED

Arranged according to number of 3 point attempts, to illustrate who were taking the most shots.

 

Hardaway Jr - 417 3 point attempts . . . 35.7%

Schröder - 294 att . . . 34%

Bazemore - 266 att . . . 34.6%

Millsap - 241 att . . . 31.1%

Korver - 159 att . . . 40.9%

Sefolosha - 120 att . . . 34.2%

Delaney - 110 att . . . 23.6%

Muscala - 110 att . . . 41.8%

Prince - 102 att . . . 32.4%

 

I know it's not cool sometimes to go against the overall popular belief.  But sometimes, you have to open your eyes.   This wasn't Golden State we had here last year.  Hell, it wasn't even Copper State.  It was more like Granite State, because they were throwing up a bunch of rocks and bricks . . or triangles, that fell into the lane after hitting the backboard.

 

 

 

[sillent]

10 hours ago, aali34 said:

Damn. 

On another note, any ideas for an avatar change?

Keep it as a reminder so we can remember how we saw real changes in our organization & will probably be thanking Howard later down though road for starting/causing this revamp. With the starters/players we had last year we should have easily made it to the conference finals because no way Horford beats Howard and Isaiah Thomas beat the rest of our squad. Sorry I digress but Howard will be an infamous name for making Atlanta great if Schlenk experiments pan out. If the latter worked we might've stayed the course with Bud president/gming/coaching and all. 

[sillent]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Dennis has always been selfish.  Even when we had Teague, Sap, Horf, and Korver.. with all those weapons, Dennis would come in and shoot us out of games.  Then... everybody would say that ... Dennis is only doing what Coach Bud wants.  The problem is that both he and Bud must go if our offense will revolve around Dennis scoring because he's not efficient and he doesn't get our offense involved. He's Monta Ellis at the PG position. 

I guess most forget Dennis came into the league projected to be the next Rondo( who had heart and an uncanny passing ability). His rookie training camp him and Lucas Nogueira looked very good together. Actually that is probably the last time Nogueira looked good but point is I'm sure Dennis will expand his set of skills and even newer role as he did last season. Last season was about proving himself and that he belongs. This year he has to prove he can make the team better under his reign and really he's yet to showcase his passing skills since he has gotten into the league. This year I'm sure he will show more if his all around skills which includes getting the ball to his teammates in good position. 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Dennis bests both outside of Joe Johnson's 3 point percentage but wait...I thought he costed the Hawks the series, LMFAO.

defensively... he was a sieve.  

[sillent]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

First off.. when a PG goes Rogue... Everybody goes rogue. 

First time starter??  Please.  He's been in the league for 4 years and he maintained half of the minutes at PG for the last 2.  What will the excuse be this year???  

I love Teague but Dennis just has more heart & grit and showed it last year proving he could start full time in this league. Now it's time for his real work to begin. Stay tuned... 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Eddielives said:

Are there actually people in the world that still think Dwight is the answer and the teammates and coaches he's had just haven't given him a fair chance?  That's cute.

I think it's mighty easy to make him the scapegoat with no proof.  Dwight had a very good year and he did more than our last center did in terms of rebounding and defending.  If we were going to trade him, we could have found a better trade.

 

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, sillent said:

I guess most forget Dennis came into the league projected to be the next Rondo( who had heart and an uncanny passing ability). His rookie training camp him and Lucas Nogueira looked very good together. Actually that is probably the last time Nogueira looked good but point is I'm sure Dennis will expand his set of skills and even newer role as he did last season. Last season was about proving himself and that he belongs. This year he has to prove he can make the team better under his reign and really he's yet to showcase his passing skills since he has gotten into the league. This year I'm sure he will show more if his all around skills which includes getting the ball to his teammates in good position. 

Yea.  We also forgot that Smoove came into the league as a Slam Dunk Champion.. but he fell in love with the three ball. 

 

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, sillent said:

I love Teague but Dennis just has more heart & grit and showed it last year proving he could start full time in this league. Now it's time for his real work to begin. Stay tuned... 

If this was Teague vs. Dennis.. that would be an interesting conversation.   However, this is about Dennis and you are infatuated about how he takes over a game... even from the likes of Millsap...  People miss that fact... Dennis takes shots away from Millsap and the rest of the team.   We will watch this for as long as we have him but I'm not willing to bet that he does any better with a squad full of rookies...  I mean, if he won't share the ball with allstars what will he do with a team full of rooks??

[sillent]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

He did what we expected.  Rebound.   We ran no plays for him so saying he didn't try on offense is just crazy.  and Defensively, he is an older guy.   He's not 2009 Dwight.  But even with that, he still went out there and worked hard to get rebounds and give us second chances and limit the other teams second chances. 

 

Honestly Dwight is still a physical specimen in this league and can get rebounds in his sleep. Expected and I'm definitely grateful for that. He still left much to be desired especially early in the season where he constantly missed point blank layups. He still let some rebounds he could've had go but honestly no knock there. There was still much to be desired as a defender, locker room presence and team leader. We could barely win a game when Paul Millsap was out even though we still had Dwight freakin Howard? As a vet, leader, allstar it would have been a perfect time to shine & hate to bring up old ghost but even Josh Smith played his role perfectly when Horford was out for the year. Dwight just left too much to be desired and worst he didn't do much to step up and take over in the playoffs except for a couple of times/the game where Baze gave him a couple ally's. As a star he should've been able to make a bigger impact on this team if he really wanted to be here but instead was only happy when winning and besides rebounding he didn't put his foot print or the team or leave us with a forceful identity. If we were the best defensive team/most dominant in the paint/ top rebounding team or etc that would have left more of a foot print I'd be more of an advocate of keeping Dwight. I hate that he was traded for peanuts but overall we are starting a youth movement and unless you're young or an irreplaceble leader/locker room guy or a superstar you might not be a part of this youth movement and Dwight unfortunately for us was none of the above. 

Once upon of time Ford was on top of the sports car game "hypothetically" with the Mustang. Now it's plenty of competition and although the Mustang is still a good vehicle there are other talks of the town. He was traded now it's time to see what's next. Not blame the Corvette/Lamborghini or prejudge the Lotus & other new introductory models. This may be a bad reference for people who love and know more about cars but I think the point is there. Most players start their prime at 26. Dennis is 23. Dwight is on his last legs and really shouldn't have excuses like they didn't involve me at this stage. If Deandre Jordan who looked up to Dwight found ways to be effective and Andre Drummond (excluding last year) could make himself effective with a point guard like Reggie Jackson who is more of a scoring guard Dwight could've done more. Especially in the playoffs and his rep on the line. He didn't and so unfortunately these are the results. Win or Revamp/Rebuild.

[StephenHawking]

vor 7 Stunden, TheNorthCydeRises sagte:

So if Howard averaged 5 points - 7 rebounds - and 2 blocks, and set screens for our "great shooters" and "slashers". . . he would've made the center position relevant again in Atlanta?

What are you dudes missing?  There is a disconnect somewhere.   If Howard did that ( which is close to what he did in the playoffs ), we win 30 games  . . . tops.

 

Here are our "shooters" from last season . . +2% above league average ( 35.8% ) in GREEN . . +2% above to -2% below league average in YELLOW . .  2% - 5% below league average in ORANGE . . . less than 5% league average in RED

Arranged according to number of 3 point attempts, to illustrate who were taking the most shots.

 

Hardaway Jr - 417 3 point attempts . . . 35.7%

Schröder - 294 att . . . 34%

Bazemore - 266 att . . . 34.6%

Millsap - 241 att . . . 31.1%

Korver - 159 att . . . 40.9%

Sefolosha - 120 att . . . 34.2%

Delaney - 110 att . . . 23.6%

Muscala - 110 att . . . 41.8%

Prince - 102 att . . . 32.4%

 

I know it's not cool sometimes to go against the overall popular belief.  But sometimes, you have to open your eyes.   This wasn't Golden State we had here last year.  Hell, it wasn't even Copper State.  It was more like Granite State, because they were throwing up a bunch of rocks and bricks . . or triangles, that fell into the lane after hitting the backboard.

 

 

 

Obviously yes that would've made us a ton better. Especially his PnR defense.

And don't equate screens with 3pt shooting. Thats just one opportunity out of the PnR. The PnR usually gives you a free player to pass to. This guy doesn't have to sit behind the 3pt line. Also Howard himself would've gotten way more easy opportunities if he would have rolled hard. But he's too shortsighted with these things.

But I really like how you say there's no proof for Howard simply being a bad fit. 

Its like you didn't even watch the playoffs.

Can I remind you of his PnR defense from game 1 on.

Can I remind you how he wouldn't come over to help and gifted Oubre a free dunk to energize their homecourt. 

I mean the eyesight alone proofed that he's simply not even trying. 

Obviously Bud wanted him to play a different role from what Dwight himself wanted. Thats why D8s effort kept regressing towards the end.

As many said before. It isn't 2007 anymore. Its 2017. The league plays a whole different brand of basketball now. Whether you adjust or not is up to you. Howard chose not to. Thats why he's a journeyman now.

[Eddielives]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think it's mighty easy to make him the scapegoat with no proof.  Dwight had a very good year and he did more than our last center did in terms of rebounding and defending.  If we were going to trade him, we could have found a better trade.

 

And yet all the proof we can actually provide supports exactly what Dwight's reputation has grown to become. Even our gm said that there was no better trade available. If we live in the world of conjecture, we can just assert anything. I think that's dishonest and unproductive. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

Obviously yes that would've made us a ton better. Especially his PnR defense.

And don't equate screens with 3pt shooting. Thats just one opportunity out of the PnR. The PnR usually gives you a free player to pass to. This guy doesn't have to sit behind the 3pt line. Also Howard himself would've gotten way more easy opportunities if he would have rolled hard. But he's too shortsighted with these things.

But I really like how you say there's no proof for Howard simply being a bad fit. 

Its like you didn't even watch the playoffs.

Can I remind you of his PnR defense from game 1 on.

Can I remind you how he wouldn't come over to help and gifted Oubre a free dunk to energize their homecourt. 

I mean the eyesight alone proofed that he's simply not even trying. 

Obviously Bud wanted him to play a different role from what Dwight himself wanted. Thats why D8s effort kept regressing towards the end.

As many said before. It isn't 2007 anymore. Its 2017. The league plays a whole different brand of basketball now. Whether you adjust or not is up to you. Howard chose not to. Thats why he's a journeyman now.

In Games 1 and 2, it was Gortat that was killing us by getting point blank shots at the rim via Wall's passes and muscling up Dwight on the boards.  Howard and the Hawks adjusted the defense in Games 3 - 6, and effectively took Gortat completely out of the picture.  They bet that Wall couldn't consistently make that midrange jumper.  He did.  We lost.  And other guys like Bradley Beal balled out as well.

But once again, that's Dennis' man ( Wall )

The Oubre play . . Dwight thought he was going to shoot a 3, as did everyone else.  He went to box out Gortat.  Oubre saw this, and went in for the dunk.  No one else on the team reacted to Oubre.  But once again, whose man was that and how did he get that wide open.   If Dwight challenges, all Oubre had to do is dump it down to Gortat for the dunk.  So you're giving up a dunk regardless.

Its funny how very few in this fan base wanted Dwight treated like he was one of the stars of the team . . . but expect him to make star type plays.  You say he wasn't trying.  I say he was literally being froze out in about 4 of those games, for the sake of "ball movement".

It's all good though.  Everybody got what they wanted.

Dwight is gone . . and now we have Diamond Stone to take his place.  He'll be that pick and roll center that everyone wanted.

Edited July 7, 2017 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Diesel]

28 minutes ago, Eddielives said:

And yet all the proof we can actually provide supports exactly what Dwight's reputation has grown to become. Even our gm said that there was no better trade available. If we live in the world of conjecture, we can just assert anything. I think that's dishonest and unproductive. 

First off.. This GM is the only one who has shown to be Dishonest.  Of course, he would say that this was the only trade available... you know why?  Because even he knew it was a bad trade.   I'm sure if he said that, it was after the fact... After the whole world took one strong giggle looking at us doing what has become natural for us... Making dumb moves. 

[Eddielives]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

First off.. This GM is the only one who has shown to be Dishonest.  Of course, he would say that this was the only trade available... you know why?  Because even he knew it was a bad trade.   I'm sure if he said that, it was after the fact... After the whole world took one strong giggle looking at us doing what has become natural for us... Making dumb moves. 

I'm pretty sure he said there were other offers but that this one was the best. But I could be wrong. Still, only if you are omniscient or are secretly privileged to be knowledgeable firsthand what our gm has been doing behind closed doors, can you know these things you are asserting. Your statements just seem rooted in dogmatism. I don't see any way of believing conclusively what you seem to be saying you know is true. I think you're still projecting feelings as reality. 

[lethalweapon3]

I dunno about the whole Locker Room Presence part. But risking a Locker Room Absence the night before a playoff elimination game at home with reckless driving on 285 certainly didn't help matters.

~lw3