The Superteams effect on the Hawks.

[Diesel]

 

Ok.. We're tanking.  Cool.  I think that Tanking would have worked in the old era.  However, this is the era of Superteams now.  Not superteams that were built by GMs, but Superteams that have been constructed by Free agents.   In this era of superteams, what does it mean to have 1 superstar?  Nothing.  I give you Paul George  with Indiana.  For the past few year, George has given 23, 7, 3 with great 3 pt shooting and very good defense.  That's superstar vicinity.    The Pacers finished 7th in the East and were swept by the Cavs.   Don't like him.. how about Karl Anthony Townes.  Last year, he finished with 24, 12, and 3.  This is almost Kevin Garnett like.   With all that work, his team finished outside of the playoffs. 

My point is that when you have 1 superstar, you really don't have anything.   We're tanking for 1 superstar and if we can't create a culture of winning around him, he will leave.

Therefore, this idea of flexibility (in the face of asset collection) is wrong.  Wrong for this era.  We will be a feeder team when it's all said and done. 

Thanks Lebron. 

[Afro]

The Warriors drafted steph, green, and klay. 

It's like people forget they won a title and had the most wins ever before Durant even showed up. 

[Final_quest]

Additionally KAT attracted Jimmy Butler.  Drafting talent attracts other stars.

Shaq joined Miami after they drafted Wade.  

Ray Allen and Garnett joined Celtics after they draft Pierce.

Lebron joins Cleveland after they draft Kyrie.

Super teams start with a foundation built in the draft.

[Eddielives]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

 

Ok.. We're tanking.  Cool.  I think that Tanking would have worked in the old era.  However, this is the era of Superteams now.  Not superteams that were built by GMs, but Superteams that have been constructed by Free agents.   In this era of superteams, what does it mean to have 1 superstar?  Nothing.  I give you Paul George  with Indiana.  For the past few year, George has given 23, 7, 3 with great 3 pt shooting and very good defense.  That's superstar vicinity.    The Pacers finished 7th in the East and were swept by the Cavs.   Don't like him.. how about Karl Anthony Townes.  Last year, he finished with 24, 12, and 3.  This is almost Kevin Garnett like.   With all that work, his team finished outside of the playoffs. 

My point is that when you have 1 superstar, you really don't have anything.   We're tanking for 1 superstar and if we can't create a culture of winning around him, he will leave.

Therefore, this idea of flexibility (in the face of asset collection) is wrong.  Wrong for this era.  We will be a feeder team when it's all said and done. 

Thanks Lebron. 

We may become a feeder team and we may not.  Assuming it's going to fail is just cynical.  You have always been right in that we're not a superstar free agent target.  And the league, as you admit, is all about the superteams now thanks to Lebron.  But OKC, which I realize hasn't won a ring, and Golden state, like Afro said did it with great drafting and a little luck.  If you're going to just assume the process fails and we become a feeder team, I think you're just setting yourself up for unnecessary frustration.  Let it play out for a few years and if it's not working, then you have a reason to say your suspicions were correct.  But for now, it's all unknown.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Eddielives

[BrazilianHawk]

You are right. Unfortunately, this rebuild has 'failure' written all over it, just like the vast majority of rebuilds. We'll see, it will take some years, but I do think you're right.

[theheroatl]

If it don't work for the next few years we can go back to the mid-level mediocre and have some more summers of "superstars" looking past us on July 1.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Afro said:

The Warriors drafted steph, green, and klay. 

It's like people forget they won a title and had the most wins ever before Durant even showed up. 

when did the warriors do a complete rebuild?  you have to be aware of all of the impossible things that went right in order to build a gs team.   First, Curry being gimpy in a contract yr.  Second having the guts to draft curry.   3rd, draymond was a second round pick.  4th, 10 other teams picked before Klay was drafted.  many of them were rebuilding. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Additionally KAT attracted Jimmy Butler.  Drafting talent attracts other stars.

Shaq joined Miami after they drafted Wade.  

Ray Allen and Garnett joined Celtics after they draft Pierce.

Lebron joins Cleveland after they draft Kyrie.

Super teams start with a foundation built in the draft.

butler was traded.  he really had no say in where he went.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Eddielives said:

We may become a feeder team and we may not.  Assuming it's going to fail is just cynical.  You have always been right in that we're not a superstar free agent target.  And the league, as you admit, is all about the superteams now thanks to Lebron.  But OKC, which I realize hasn't won a ring, and Golden state, like Afro said did it with great drafting and a little luck.  If you're going to just assume the process fails and we become a feeder team, I think you're just setting yourself up for unnecessary frustration.  Let it play out for a few years and if it's not working, then you have a reason to say your suspicions were correct.  But for now, it's all unknown.

i believe that you tailor your plan for the environment.  Would you dress yourself according to the almanac?  That's what we are doing.  The environment has chaged but we're using the same old plans that always fail.   This is a time for assett collection and we're tanking.

[Eddielives]

51 minutes ago, Diesel said:

i believe that you tailor your plan for the environment.  Would you dress yourself according to the almanac?  That's what we are doing.  The environment has chaged but we're using the same old plans that always fail.   This is a time for assett collection and we're tanking.

Lottery picks are our best and only attainable assets. No players that are getting us near a ring are coming here.  How else are we going to get them?  It's sad but true. 

[Diesel]

20 minutes ago, Eddielives said:

Lottery picks are our best and only attainable assets. No players that are getting us near a ring are coming here.  How else are we going to get them?  It's sad but true. 

Have we done right by our lottery picks?

We traded Dwight and moved draft picks back.

We got low Lottery picks in our other deals. 

The question is from top to bottom what are the targets in the next year and year after's draft.   I don't see anybody that stands out to me as a generational talent... do you?

We're tanking for the next derrick Williams or Anthony Bennett?

[HawkItus]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Additionally KAT attracted Jimmy Butler.  Drafting talent attracts other stars.- Wrong this was a TRADE

Shaq joined Miami after they drafted Wade.  -  Wrong this was a TRADE

Ray Allen and Garnett joined Celtics after they draft Pierce. -  Kind of, but it was a TRADE and Allen was the ticket

Lebron joins Cleveland after they draft Kyrie.

Super teams start with a foundation built in the draft.

Additionally KAT attracted Jimmy Butler.  Drafting talent attracts other stars.- Wrong this was a TRADE

Shaq joined Miami after they drafted Wade.  -  Wrong this was a TRADE

Ray Allen and Garnett joined Celtics after they draft Pierce. -  Kind of, but it was a TRADE and Allen was the ticket

[AHF]

1 minute ago, HawkItus said:

Additionally KAT attracted Jimmy Butler.  Drafting talent attracts other stars.- Wrong this was a TRADE

Shaq joined Miami after they drafted Wade.  -  Wrong this was a TRADE

Ray Allen and Garnett joined Celtics after they draft Pierce. -  Kind of, but it was a TRADE and Allen was the ticket

Some of that was stated incorrectly as you note but I don't think it makes a big difference.  Of course it is young players picked in the lottery and/or lottery picks that made all those trades happen.

[Diesel]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

Some of that was stated incorrectly as you note but I don't think it makes a big difference.  Of course it is young players picked in the lottery and/or lottery picks that made all those trades happen.

You mean... Assets like Al Jefferson?  Assets like Butler, Odom, and Grant?  or Assets like Levine and Dunn. 

You have to have players that the other team wants.   So far, we have failed at the Asset collection part of this in order to pick up draft picks.   So far the draft picks that we are getting are late first round picks.  Nobody wants those.  So now, we have move from being an asset and trade team to being a draft, develop, and trade team.  The latter of these is not conducive to building a championship.

[marco102]

37 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Have we done right by our lottery picks?

We traded Dwight and moved draft picks back.

We got low Lottery picks in our other deals. 

The question is from top to bottom what are the targets in the next year and year after's draft.   I don't see anybody that stands out to me as a generational talent... do you?

We're tanking for the next derrick Williams or Anthony Bennett?

You hope to get this guy

And hope Minnesota gets you the 15 - 20 pick and this guy is there.

 

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You mean... Assets like Al Jefferson?  Assets like Butler, Odom, and Grant?  or Assets like Levine and Dunn. 

You have to have players that the other team wants.   So far, we have failed at the Asset collection part of this in order to pick up draft picks.   So far the draft picks that we are getting are late first round picks.  Nobody wants those.  So now, we have move from being an asset and trade team to being a draft, develop, and trade team.  The latter of these is not conducive to building a championship.

You're arguing both sides of the argument. In one thread, you ask if Baze averages 24 pts do we trade him.  Someone said yes, then you turn around and say we will be the same treadmill team.   What the heck do you want?

Edited July 10, 2017 by marco102

[Thomas]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

You're arguing both sides of the argument. In one thread, you ask if Baze averages 24 pts do we trade him.  Someone said yes, theyn you turn around and say we will be on the same treadmill team.   What the heck do you want?

Colorful conversation I believe. Just guessing.

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, marco102 said:

You're arguing both sides of the argument. In one thread, you ask if Baze averages 24 pts do we trade him.  Someone said yes, then you turn around and say we will be the same treadmill team.   What the heck do you want?

That was in another thread, but I will explain:

 

IF we are willing to give up a player we have developed for more first round picks... because that is what I suggested... then we have a treadmill mentaility. 

Had I said, let's take Baze and trade him for Klay Thompson... that would be using Assets to get better.   We point to the moves of Minny getting Butler.  why?  They took players with potential, players who they were developing and they flipped them for a player who was fully developed.   

Many Hawks fans just want to collect picks like Danny Ainge but they have no endgame that says... let's turn these picks into stars.  When we look at our GM... he's that kind of guy.

1. He didn't take a developing player in THJr.
2. He bought out and stretch Crawford instead of seeing what Assets he could have gotten for him. 
3. He moved back in the draft and picked up a terrible player when he traded D8.

In those 3 moves, he showed us who he is.  He is a guy who doesn't value assets. 

 

[Eddielives]

41 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Have we done right by our lottery picks?

We traded Dwight and moved draft picks back.

We got low Lottery picks in our other deals. 

The question is from top to bottom what are the targets in the next year and year after's draft.   I don't see anybody that stands out to me as a generational talent... do you?

We're tanking for the next derrick Williams or Anthony Bennett?

So it's clear we have different philosophies on the direction of the Hawks franchise. We're probably not going to sway each other on that. But one thing is undeniable. You keep assuming that failure is imminent or at least heavily implying it. Your grounds are that it's not worked in the past and I get that. But there's no way you can reasonably predict that this time around, it will or will not work. That's the difference between you and I. You're dead set on seeming to know this will fail and I'm waiting for the actual outcome.  It isn't like there's a hard scientific formula to be able to predict the future. The league evolves so much these days. It's very presumptive to say anything about our future success or failure. But  There seems to be more evidence now than ever that if you overpay for mid-level talent for the sake of remaining competitive, you're likely going to be not even close really to dethroning the cavs or any number of the upper tier teams.  And say you do somehow beat the cavs in the eastern finals. Your reward is a hefty ass whooping by golden state. I'm going to hold on to the hope that we get a great player or two in the upcoming lotteries and build onto that nucleus with fa assets at the appropriate time rather than make cosmetic signings to create some theater or illusion that we're actually contenders. 

[Thomas]

And yet Schlenk traded a 2019 second rounder for a 2018 first rounder and a project big that costs us almost nothing. Its not all a downward spiral here.