The Superteams effect on the Hawks.

[Thomas]

Bottom line is Tim hasn't shown up in the playoffs and he absolutely has to now or he will truly be persecuted in New York. Wish him luck with that but they have to get to the postseason for anyone to known shit. I have pulled for Tim very hard here but that contract is like a land share deal that has so much upper risk involved. Believe Schlenk was wise to not pull the trigger because we are definitely not knocking on the door this season or next. 

[sillent]

17 hours ago, Afro said:

The Warriors drafted steph, green, and klay. 

It's like people forget they won a title and had the most wins ever before Durant even showed up. 

& as Schlenk has said in the past (don't know if this is still relevant but) we are further ahead than the Warriors. 

[AHF]

Just the latest of many articles offering opinions from both pundits and NBA execs on the crazy overpay of THJr:

All signs point to Knicks remaining a stagnant mess

 Chris Mannix,Yahoo Sports

Quote

Think the Knicks overpaid for Tim Hardaway Jr.? Guess what? Hardaway’s four-year, $71 million deal startled more than a few decision makers here. The Hawks were keen on keeping Hardaway. At $40 million. Maybe $50 million.

$71 million?

Pass.

“I would have offered Dion Waiters money,” said a Western Conference exec, referencing the four-year, $52 million deal Waiters signed with the Miami Heat last week. “Seventy-one million? No one else was going to offer that.”

 

[AHF]

Another posted by a fellow Squawker this morning from the Ringer:

Quote

The sad thing is, not a whole lot has changed since his departure. The Knicks just signed Tim Hardaway Jr. for four years and $71 million. Unless the final two months of this past season are an indicator of the future, that’ll go down as another bad Knicks deal. Even Hardaway was surprised by the offer.

Imagine having a joke better than the things the Knicks actually do.

 

[Thomas]

Knicks still stumbling along that downward slope today. Steve Mills is gonna be the team president of operations now. His reward for handing out 71 million I guess.

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/sports/2017/07/11/report:-knicks-make-steve-mills-president-basketball-operations/103601926/

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Another posted by a fellow Squawker this morning from the Ringer:

 

I think the context is wrong here.

Hardaway was surprised that the offer was from the Knicks...  Here's how another reporter quoted:

Quote

“You play here for two years and then you’re gone,” Hardaway said Monday afternoon at a Knicks’ basketball camp. “Then two years later you get a phone call and it’s like, ‘Wow!’ I wouldn’t expect it coming from them. I would expect from a different team or a different franchise. When I got the call I was very, very happy and overwhelmed.”

 

[AHF]

NY Times:

Quote

The deal gives the Knicks a young, talented guard, although at the inflated price of $71 million over four years. The Knicks made an expensive offer to Hardaway to deter Atlanta from matching it.

Charles Curtis - FTW 

Quote

The Knicks' offer sheet to Tim Hardaway Jr. is the first truly bad contract of the 2017 offseason.  

Take a look at the list of free agents who have signed in this crazy NBA offseason and you’ll see something curious: There aren’t too many bad contracts. Nothing too outlandish or out of the question (although some would argue Otto Porter’s four-year $106.5 million offer sheet counts).

That is, until now. And of course the New York Knicks had to be the ones to break that streak.

USA Today's Sam Amick

Quote

Atlanta can match by the Saturday evening deadline, and thereby take on a contract that far exceeds anything that most NBA executives anticipated for the 25-year-old who was drafted by the Knicks in 2013.

Translation: Schlenk, who spent 12 years with the Golden State Warriors and last served as their assistant general manager, isn’t too keen on long, above-market deals at the moment as he tries to build deliberately and wisely. And while he is known to have been planning on matching any offer that came Hardaway’s way, next to no one saw this kind of deal in his future.

NBC - Kurt Helin

Quote

Report: Hawks will not match Knicks’ ridiculous $71 million Tim Hardaway Jr. offer sheet

The NBA seemed to have sobered up from its 2016 spending spree, and the free agent market had tightened up. Patrick Patterson was the best example, he signed a three-year, $16.4 million contract — a year ago he would have gotten that much a season. The days of overpaying guys just because teams had the money had gone away.

Then the Knicks said, “hold my beer…”

They came in with a four-year, $71 million offer sheet for Hawks’ restricted free agent Tim Hardaway Jr. It was an offer that baffled front offices and agents around the league, and was way more than the Hawks’ logical offer of four-years, $48 million. 

Yaron Weitzman - BR

Quote

No non-stars were inked to star-like contracts, a move the franchise has perfected over the past, oh, two decades.

Then came the news Thursday night, courtesy of ESPN’s Ian Begley and Adrian Wojnarowski: The Knicks and restricted free agent Tim Hardaway Jr. had come to terms on a four-year deal worth…$71 million? That dollar amount looked like a typo. The Knicks will be dedicating about 18 percent of their cap room to a 25-year-old shooting guard who averaged 14.5 points per game last season. And that was a career high.

“No I can’t,” said an agent when asked by Bleacher Report if he could believe the numbers on the Hardaway deal. “But then again, it’s the Knicks.”

"They're nuts," wrote another agent. "Their two moves are re-signing Ron Baker and crazy overpay here."

But for Hardaway to prove worthy of this deal, he'd have to morph into a star, and away from the environment where he was able to excel. That's unlikely to ever happen, which means for the next four years, the Knicks will be giving star money to a player unworthy of such a deal. In a capped league, that might be the most crippling mistake a team can make. 

And a million others you can find in 5 minutes of a google search from commentators, agents and NBA execs.

[AHF]

16 hours ago, sillent said:

& as Schlenk has said in the past (don't know if this is still relevant but) we are further ahead than the Warriors. 

I actually disagree with this.  He had an MVP talent on the roster.  I'd trade all our guys for that foundation piece.  

[Eddielives]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

NY Times:

Charles Curtis - FTW 

USA Today's Sam Amick

NBC - Kurt Helin

Yaron Weitzman - BR

And a million others you can find in 5 minutes of a google search from commentators, agents and NBA execs.

"What do they know?"  - Diesel

[Diesel]

15 hours ago, AHF said:

NY Times:

Charles Curtis - FTW 

USA Today's Sam Amick

NBC - Kurt Helin

Yaron Weitzman - BR

And a million others you can find in 5 minutes of a google search from commentators, agents and NBA execs.

That's the problem though AHF.  We live in a time where... if One Blogger post his opinion (not based on fact) then several others will echo it.   I clearly showed you all where THJr fell on the scale of pay of SGs.   Based on his potential and production, he is in the right spot, in fact, if we introduce potential, he should be in a higher position.   You're posting the words of opinionated Bloggers.. not true Journalist.  The true Journalist would have done their homework and Atleast introduced the facts...  So.. I'm not moved by how many echoed articles you can find... Especially coming out of NY.  Mainly because they have NO freaking clue about how these Budget raises in the NBA has effected contract negotiations.

[Diesel]

I'll let you do the work... Where should THJr go.. based on Production and Potential..  Tell me where on this list of SG do you think he should sit between?  Currently he's #14...  If you believe what the Pundits tell you... Give me two players that you would place him.

 

5		Bradley Beal SHOOTING GUARD	$23,775,506
6		J.J. Redick SHOOTING GUARD	$23,000,000
7		Nicolas Batum SHOOTING GUARD	$22,434,783
8		Victor Oladipo SHOOTING GUARD	$21,000,000
9		Jimmy Butler SHOOTING GUARD	$19,300,894
10		Wesley Matthews SHOOTING GUARD	$17,884,175
11		Klay Thompson SHOOTING GUARD	$17,826,150
12		Andre Iguodala SHOOTING GUARD	$17,391,304
13		Evan Fournier SHOOTING GUARD	$17,000,000
14		Tim Hardaway Jr. SHOOTING GUARD	$16,500,000
15		J.R. Smith SHOOTING GUARD	$13,760,000
16		Eric Gordon SHOOTING GUARD	$12,943,020
17		Austin Rivers SHOOTING GUARD	$11,825,000
18		Courtney Lee SHOOTING GUARD	$11,747,890
19		Jordan Clarkson SHOOTING GUARD	$11,562,500
20		Dion Waiters SHOOTING GUARD	$11,000,000
21		Iman Shumpert SHOOTING GUARD	$10,337,079
22		Danny Green SHOOTING GUARD	$10,000,000
23		Matthew Dellavedova SHOOTING GUARD	$9,607,500

[AHF]

He should have gotten a deal like Waiters.  Not a deal like one given las summer.

[Diesel]

                                                                                                                                      
Rk            Player  Season Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Jordan Clarkson 2016-17  24 82 19 2397 7.2 16.1 .445 1.8 5.3 .329 5.4 10.7 .503 2.0 2.5 .798 0.7 3.0 3.7 3.2 1.3 0.1 2.5 2.3 18.1
2       Tim Hardaway 2016-17  24 79 30 2154 6.9 15.2 .455 2.5 7.0 .357 4.4  8.3 .537 2.7 3.6 .766 0.6 3.2 3.7 3.0 0.9 0.3 1.8 1.7 19.1
3       Dion Waiters 2016-17  25 46 43 1384 7.3 17.2 .424 2.2 5.6 .395 5.1 11.7 .438 2.1 3.3 .646 0.5 3.5 4.0 5.2 1.1 0.5 2.7 2.5 19.0

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 7/12/2017.

 

THJr... More ppg.  Much better shooting percent.   And as far as Waiters goes...

Quote

Dion Waiters Ranks Himself Among NBA's Top 5 Shooting Guards

based on the List of SGs.  The Whole List would have to be rearranged and maybe THJr and Dion would be somewhere Higher than they are now. 

 

[Thomas]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Dion Waiters Ranks Himself Among NBA's Top 5 Shooting Guards

Dion is always the comedian when talking himself up, whether he knows it or not. Some people need a personal trainer or a body guard but Dion needs a personal psychologist behind his shoulder. Very lucky for him Spoelstra is still his coach.

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, Diesel said:

  And as far as Waiters goes...

based on the List of SGs.  The Whole List would have to be rearranged and maybe THJr and Dion would be somewhere Higher than they are now. 

 

Waiters is out of his mind with how good he thinks he is.  He isn't close to top 5.  Him claiming that is like when Wall and Beal claimed they were the best backcourt in basketball 2 or 3 years ago.

In fairness to THJr, I would rather pay him than pay Waiters who I think is more of a blind chucker than THJr.  

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Waiters is out of his mind with how good he thinks he is.  He isn't close to top 5.  Him claiming that is like when Wall and Beal claimed they were the best backcourt in basketball 2 or 3 years ago.

IF we look at the top 15 by Salary.. I believe that Production and Potential wise, both Dion and THJr are better than where they stand. 

I don't believe that Reddick and Batum are that much better if Better at all than those two. 

[AHF]

Just now, Diesel said:

IF we look at the top 15 by Salary.. I believe that Production and Potential wise, both Dion and THJr are better than where they stand. 

I don't believe that Reddick and Batum are that much better if Better at all than those two. 

Reddick is being artificially overpaid on a one year deal so he helps space the floor for the youngsters in Philly.  

Batum is so much better defensively than either Dion or THJr it isn't funny.

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Reddick is being artificially overpaid on a one year deal so he helps space the floor for the youngsters in Philly.  

Batum is so much better defensively than either Dion or THJr it isn't funny.

Philly is not that good.

Batum:  6-7 Million more better? or as you would have it... 11 -12 Million more better??

This is my point, there's inflation in salaries and it's not going down... as long as the team budgets continue to skyrocket.  Basketball will have to wait until it's next tv contract before they see a depression so.. these salaries aren't going to be what it looked like 4 years ago...

 

[marco102]

20 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Philly is not that good.

Batum:  6-7 Million more better? or as you would have it... 11 -12 Million more better??

This is my point, there's inflation in salaries and it's not going down... as long as the team budgets continue to skyrocket.  Basketball will have to wait until it's next tv contract before they see a depression so.. these salaries aren't going to be what it looked like 4 years ago...

 

You're talking about two different things here and you know you need to concede on one.  If you're talking about contracts given out in 2016 when the market was so inflated that Bazemore got a $70 million deal then yes, THjr is more than reasonable.   But if you are talking about contracts giving out in 2017, which is what @AHF, and everyone except you  are talking about.  You KNOW THjr's contract is inflated because no one got anything close to that in terms of average salary and longevity in the 2017 market. You're a very intelligent person so you know you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.  Can we agree that his contract is bloated compared to the contracts given out in 2017 only. Don't go pulling up shooting guards who got over paid when the salary cap jumped $20,000,000 so every team had to spend to meet the minimum floor.

Edited July 12, 2017 by marco102

[AHF]

57 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Philly is not that good.

Batum:  6-7 Million more better? or as you would have it... 11 -12 Million more better??

This is my point, there's inflation in salaries and it's not going down... as long as the team budgets continue to skyrocket.  Basketball will have to wait until it's next tv contract before they see a depression so.. these salaries aren't going to be what it looked like 4 years ago...

 

Ignoring when people were signed is like ignoring location for real estate.  The same ranch house might be worth a ton in Silicon Valley but not so much in Valdosta.  Guys like Bazemore and Turner signed during a crazy, overinflated market.  This year is an entirely different story with contract pricing getting back closer to historic norms.  This year, THJr got well over market pricing as the agents and NBA execs quoted in numerous stories have all made clear.