Hawks fans making it through a TANK...

[KB21]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Y'all just continue to amaze me with your conversations about how long it will take to just make the playoffs again. The prediction of 5 years plus assumes we have abdolutely nothing on the roster now. Maybe y'all thought and still think that Millsap, Howard and Hardaway were our irreplaceable big 3 lol.  Makes you wonder how Utah and Houston manage to make the playoffs after their stars left.

Here's the thing.  If Dennis Schröder, DeAndre Bembry, Taurean Prince, and John Collins are the core of a playoff team, then why exactly are we bottoming out to get a higher draft pick?

[High5]

"Gather around kids and let me tell you about the greatest Hawks team of all time. They won 43 games that year. 45 if you include the playoffs..."

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Y'all just continue to amaze me with your conversations about how long it will take to just make the playoffs again. The prediction of 5 years plus assumes we have abdolutely nothing on the roster now. Maybe y'all thought and still think that Millsap, Howard and Hardaway were our irreplaceable big 3 lol.  Makes you wonder how Utah and Houston manage to make the playoffs after their stars left.

 

Name one player on this roster that's championship caliber... Youngins need at least four seasons before they'll be ready to compete and Dennis is too inefficient. I'm tired of second-round exits. It's either win a championship or win with a great pick in the lottery.

[Peoriabird]

7 hours ago, KB21 said:

Here's the thing.  If Dennis Schröder, DeAndre Bembry, Taurean Prince, and John Collins are the core of a playoff team, then why exactly are we bottoming out to get a higher draft pick?

Who says that this team is bottoming out? They may not win as many games next year as last year but next year is just 1 year. Essentially you guys are predicting 5 years plus worth of next years without any idea who will develop or who will be acquired... So I am assuming that y'all are predicting that there is nothing on the team now and no matter who we add over the next 5 years, this team will not win over half their games. That is at best an unjustifiably negative bias typical of the Atlanta fanbase culture.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, hazer said:

Decade?

 

"Since the Hawks made the playoffs 3 years after their 13 win season...

The Heat made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Bucks made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Seattle Super Thunder made it 2 years after 20 win season; 
The Charlotte Horncats did it 2 years after a 7 win season
The Clippers made it 3 years after 19 win season
The New Brooksey Nets did it 3 years after a 12 win season

Posted by wmcgee_va on Jul 21, 2017 | 10:52 PM"

 

When you talk about the Hawks 13 win season, you're simply referencing the bottom point in which we basically started from scratch.  In reality, that was YEAR 6 of us missing the playoffs.   The only reason why the Hawks got out of the abyss, was because of the move that Billy Knight doesn't get enough credit for . . . the Joe Johnson trade.

We got Joe. who turned into something greater than all of our lottery picks.  And the conditions Knight had on the pick, still enabled us to get a top 3 pick, which turned into Al Horford.  A lot of people still feel that we gave up too much to get Joe.  But we had to, because we were in desperation mode by then.

LOL . . and we STILL had to trade for Mike Bibby, just to barely make the playoffs.  Otherwise, that would've been NINE YEARS of missing the playoffs.

That Clippers team you referenced, missed the playoffs the previous 10 out of 11 years before the 19 win season.

Charlotte only had 1 playoff appearance in the 7 years before the rock bottom season, and missed the playoffs 8 out of 9 years before the great Al Jefferson got them back to the playoffs in 2014.

Brooklyn used their lottery picks to trade for vets ( Gerald Wallace and Deron Williams ).  Then they got a gift from Danny Ferry in the form of Joe Johnson,

The Heat already had Dwyane Wade, Sporadic injuries + horrible chemistry problems killed that team.  And they definitely decided to tank, once it was apparent that they couldn't make the playoffs.

Milwaukee and OKC are great stories.  OKC drafted 3 Hall of Fame players in a row ( Durant, Westbrook, and Harden ).  Milwaukee acquired Jason Kidd, who changed their style of play offensively.  They haven't made the leap yet, but they have a superstar to build around.

*********************

But let's not forget about the current "abyss" teams

 

- DENVER, NY KNICKS and LA LAKERS:  4 years of missing the playoffs, which is bad, but I don't consider that the "abyss".  But they're definitely looking into it.  Denver has a decent young core, and decided to start adding quality vets to the squad ( Millsap ). Lakers have hope in a young draft pick + cap space next season.  Knicks are potentially looking at more years in the abyss, unless Porzingis turns into a superstar.

- ORLANDO:  5 years and counting missing the playoffs, since the Dwight Howard departure.

- DETROIT:  Made the playoffs in 2016, but have missed the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years

- PHOENIX:  Deep in the abyss with 7 straight seasons of not making the playoffs.  With the West completely stacked this year, that will extend to 8 straight seasons.

- SACRAMENTO:  The once proud franchise hasn't made the playoffs in 11 STRAIGHT seasons, and hasn't even won more than 35 games in that stretch.  Missed lottery pick after pick.  Failed attempts to bring in high quality free agents.  Bad decisions on vets being brought in,   At least they got a nice arena.

- MINNESOTA:  13 years, no playoffs.  The "Siberia" of the NBA.  They have the young talent, but they made the ultimate move in adding high quality vets.  Let's see if it helps them.  But 13 years is a loooong time.   

 

In 5 years, fans will be wishing to get back on the treadmill.

Save us Dennis Skywalker.  You are our only hope.

 

 

 

 

[hazer]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

When you talk about the Hawks 13 win season, you're simply referencing the bottom point in which we basically started from scratch.  In reality, that was YEAR 6 of us missing the playoffs.   The only reason why the Hawks got out of the abyss, was because of the move that Billy Knight doesn't get enough credit for . . . the Joe Johnson trade.

We got Joe. who turned into something greater than all of our lottery picks.  And the conditions Knight had on the pick, still enabled us to get a top 3 pick, which turned into Al Horford.  A lot of people still feel that we gave up too much to get Joe.  But we had to, because we were in desperation mode by then.

LOL . . and we STILL had to trade for Mike Bibby, just to barely make the playoffs.  Otherwise, that would've been NINE YEARS of missing the playoffs.

That Clippers team you referenced, missed the playoffs the previous 10 out of 11 years before the 19 win season.

Charlotte only had 1 playoff appearance in the 7 years before the rock bottom season, and missed the playoffs 8 out of 9 years before the great Al Jefferson got them back to the playoffs in 2014.

Brooklyn used their lottery picks to trade for vets ( Gerald Wallace and Deron Williams ).  Then they got a gift from Danny Ferry in the form of Joe Johnson,

The Heat already had Dwyane Wade, Sporadic injuries + horrible chemistry problems killed that team.  And they definitely decided to tank, once it was apparent that they couldn't make the playoffs.

Milwaukee and OKC are great stories.  OKC drafted 3 Hall of Fame players in a row ( Durant, Westbrook, and Harden ).  Milwaukee acquired Jason Kidd, who changed their style of play offensively.  They haven't made the leap yet, but they have a superstar to build around.

*********************

But let's not forget about the current "abyss" teams

 

- DENVER, NY KNICKS and LA LAKERS:  4 years of missing the playoffs, which is bad, but I don't consider that the "abyss".  But they're definitely looking into it.  Denver has a decent young core, and decided to start adding quality vets to the squad ( Millsap ). Lakers have hope in a young draft pick + cap space next season.  Knicks are potentially looking at more years in the abyss, unless Porzingis turns into a superstar.

- ORLANDO:  5 years and counting missing the playoffs, since the Dwight Howard departure.

- DETROIT:  Made the playoffs in 2016, but have missed the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years

- PHOENIX:  Deep in the abyss with 7 straight seasons of not making the playoffs.  With the West completely stacked this year, that will extend to 8 straight seasons.

- SACRAMENTO:  The once proud franchise hasn't made the playoffs in 11 STRAIGHT seasons, and hasn't even won more than 35 games in that stretch.  Missed lottery pick after pick.  Failed attempts to bring in high quality free agents.  Bad decisions on vets being brought in,   At least they got a nice arena.

- MINNESOTA:  13 years, no playoffs.  The "Siberia" of the NBA.  They have the young talent, but they made the ultimate move in adding high quality vets.  Let's see if it helps them.  But 13 years is a loooong time.   

 

In 5 years, fans will be wishing to get back on the treadmill.

Save us Dennis Skywalker.  You are our only hope.

 

 

 

 

This just shows that every situation is different. Awful lot of western conference teams in that last list. We in da weak East. It will not take 5 years for the Hawks to return to the playoffs. Probably 2 or 3 as weak as the conference is.

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, hazer said:

This just shows that every situation is different. Awful lot of western conference teams in that last list. We in da weak East. It will not take 5 years for the Hawks to return to the playoffs. Probably 2 or 3 as weak as the conference is.

I like how some of these ppl refuse to acknowledge that if some of these teams were in the East instead of the West they'd already have been back to the playoffs. I don't see the point in engaging them over this. Our team clearly is rebuilding and whining on the internet isn't going to make them change course.

[KB21]

3 hours ago, hazer said:

This just shows that every situation is different. Awful lot of western conference teams in that last list. We in da weak East. It will not take 5 years for the Hawks to return to the playoffs. Probably 2 or 3 as weak as the conference is.

So, why do you think the Hawks will rebound quickly with their lottery picks but Brooklyn/Chicago/Indiana won't with their lottery picks?

[hazer]

17 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So, why do you think the Hawks will rebound quickly with their lottery picks but Brooklyn/Chicago/Indiana won't with their lottery picks?

I truly believe we have a better GM who'll make better picks, a better coach who gets more out of his players, a better player development system, and better cap flexibility. Plus Menace, Printz, The Baptist, and all those 1sts.

[Peoriabird]

32 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So, why do you think the Hawks will rebound quickly with their lottery picks but Brooklyn/Chicago/Indiana won't with their lottery picks?

I truly feel we got lucky for a change with Dennis, Prince, Bembry and Collins. Whereas the other teams had a bunch of misses with their young draft picks.  Adding 5 more 1st round picks to the above core over the next 2 year makes it appear to be the perfect setup to get the team back on track fairly quickly. Add to the above something other teams won't have over the next few year the almighty cap space...How can it fail? This was a brilliant plan! If Schlenk makes the right picks, this retool will be quick.

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So, why do you think the Hawks will rebound quickly with their lottery picks but Brooklyn/Chicago/Indiana won't with their lottery picks?

For Brooklyn it is because they don't have any lottery picks, lol. Dumbest GM in the last 20 years of the game selling out their future to try to "win now!!!" without even having a superstar.

For Indy and Chi, we'll just have to see.  They have been playoff teams in recent years so this is new territory for them.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Who says that this team is bottoming out? They may not win as many games next year as last year but next year is just 1 year. Essentially you guys are predicting 5 years plus worth of next years without any idea who will develop or who will be acquired... So I am assuming that y'all are predicting that there is nothing on the team now and no matter who we add over the next 5 years, this team will not win over half their games. That is at best an unjustifiably negative bias typical of the Atlanta fanbase culture.

2 different subjects here.

Let's address the first. 

IF this team is just a little worst than last years team.. that means that the talent added to this years team is not much different than last year.  So back to the original question, if the talent is that good, why didn't we just keep last years team together, add this year's talent and been much better??  You're not trying to tell us that the difference maker is Plumlee are you?

Let's address the second.

I already realize that nobody's going to address the first issue, so let's talk abut the second.   How long will a rebuild take through tanking.

So we have Dennis, Baze, Collins, Prince, and Dedmon.  Many are three to 4 year signees.  if our plan is to build through the draft... then next year, we draft a good rookie (depending on where we pick).   The year after, we draft another good rookie and the plan would call for us bringing in a good free agent. 

This is how that plan usually goes.    Now for those saying that we will be ready in 3 years... let's look at what we will have:  Assuming we don't keep Baze, plumlee, or Belli...  We will have a core of Prince, Collins, Dennis, Bembry, and 2 new guys.   The bet is that in three years...

Collins, Prince, or one of the two new guys is allstar level.  It would have to be that in order for us to attract a good Free Agent.   This plan is not new... many teams have done it before.  For instance, we did it. 

in 2003, we started over.

In 2003, we traded SAR and Theo for Rasheed Wallace and we converted that to the 16th pick in the draft. 

In 2004, we drafted Smoove and Childress.  We also traded Jason Terry for Antwan Walker and we brought in a young Al Harrington.   To round out our roster, we signed Ty Lue . 

 

So our team look like this:   Lue, Smoove, Harrington, Walker, and Collier.   WIth Chills coming off the bench.  By the end of the sesaon, Harrington moved to PF and Smoove moved to SF and Childress got more playing time.   We had traded Walker for GP and Googs.   GP never played.   

This was the youth movement.   We put it on the shoulders of Chills and Smoove and hoped for the best. 

We won 13 games.  

2005... we brought in Joe Johnson and we drafted Marvin Williams.   We won 26 games. 

2006...  We drafted Sheldon and Acie Law.    I think that was the year we picked up Zaza.   We won 30 games. 

So look at what we have by year 3.   

Young guys:  Marvin, Smoove, Childress, Acie, Shelden.

Vets:  Joe, Zaza, Lue, Speedy Claxton, Lorenzen Wright, and Anthony Johnson.

Lots of potential... as good a free agents as we have ever had.  30-52.

2007...  We draft Al Horford.   We traded for Bibby.   37 wins.   Finally we made it back to the playoffs.   This is year 4 and this would be the team that gives Joe Johnson a 121 Million deal to keep him.  This would be the team that see a merry go round of young players leave.. namely Childress.   And those who stay we have to overpay... Smoove and Marvin.   And the team learned how to get value from value because it realized that this is not a place where good FAs come.   

But now.. new GM... think he knows something...  And you think it will be 3 years... Come on... First the GM has to learn from his mistakes. 

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

When you talk about the Hawks 13 win season, you're simply referencing the bottom point in which we basically started from scratch.  In reality, that was YEAR 6 of us missing the playoffs.   The only reason why the Hawks got out of the abyss, was because of the move that Billy Knight doesn't get enough credit for . . . the Joe Johnson trade.

We got Joe. who turned into something greater than all of our lottery picks.  And the conditions Knight had on the pick, still enabled us to get a top 3 pick, which turned into Al Horford.  A lot of people still feel that we gave up too much to get Joe.  But we had to, because we were in desperation mode by then.

LOL . . and we STILL had to trade for Mike Bibby, just to barely make the playoffs.  Otherwise, that would've been NINE YEARS of missing the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

Brother, I didn't read your masterpiece before my last post.  however, Amen and Amen.  

The thing about the Joe trade...Joe wanted to be here.  He had the same issue that Kyrie has... He was playing for a team but wasn't respected because he was in Amare's shadow.  This is why I'm so taken off guard when some people look at Kyrie and say.. he's a cancer because he doesn't want to be in Lebron's shadow.   It's cold behind Lebron's Shadow.  Kyrie should want to come to Atlanta because:

1.  We are in the East.. (easier road). 

2.  We are starving for a star.  (it would be HIS TEAM). 

3.  He'd have the greatest sports Messageboard in History behind him. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

For Brooklyn it is because they don't have any lottery picks, lol. Dumbest GM in the last 20 years of the game selling out their future to try to "win now!!!" without even having a superstar.

For Indy and Chi, we'll just have to see.  They have been playoff teams in recent years so this is new territory for them.

I think a team of KG, Pierce, Joe, Lopez, and Deron Williams was not that bad.  KG and Pierce were fresh off a championship.  They were just too old.

[Peoriabird]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

2 different subjects here.

Let's address the first. 

IF this team is just a little worst than last years team.. that means that the talent added to this years team is not much different than last year.  So back to the original question, if the talent is that good, why didn't we just keep last years team together, add this year's talent and been much better??  You're not trying to tell us that the difference maker is Plumlee are you?

Again, we have been over this so many times..We could not keep Howard because Bud didn't want him here period...This can't be that hard to understand

Secondly, we were not going to pay $81 mil for THjr.  No one would have!!!!

3rdly, Millsap isn't worth $30 mil per season at 32.

We would have been in cap hell if we resigned those three players with almost no options to change the team.

Let's address the second.

I already realize that nobody's going to address the first issue, so let's talk abut the second.   How long will a rebuild take through tanking.

So we have Dennis, Baze, Collins, Prince, and Dedmon.  Many are three to 4 year signees.  if our plan is to build through the draft... then next year, we draft a good rookie (depending on where we pick).   The year after, we draft another good rookie and the plan would call for us bringing in a good free agent. 

This is how that plan usually goes.    Now for those saying that we will be ready in 3 years... let's look at what we will have:  Assuming we don't keep Baze, plumlee, or Belli...  We will have a core of Prince, Collins, Dennis, Bembry, and 2 new guys.   The bet is that in three years...

Collins, Prince, or one of the two new guys is allstar level.  It would have to be that in order for us to attract a good Free Agent.   This plan is not new... many teams have done it before.  For instance, we did it. 

in 2003, we started over.

In 2003, we traded SAR and Theo for Rasheed Wallace and we converted that to the 16th pick in the draft. 

In 2004, we drafted Smoove and Childress.  We also traded Jason Terry for Antwan Walker and we brought in a young Al Harrington.   To round out our roster, we signed Ty Lue . 

 

So our team look like this:   Lue, Smoove, Harrington, Walker, and Collier.   WIth Chills coming off the bench.  By the end of the sesaon, Harrington moved to PF and Smoove moved to SF and Childress got more playing time.   We had traded Walker for GP and Googs.   GP never played.   

This was the youth movement.   We put it on the shoulders of Chills and Smoove and hoped for the best. 

We won 13 games.  

2005... we brought in Joe Johnson and we drafted Marvin Williams.   We won 26 games. 

2006...  We drafted Sheldon and Acie Law.    I think that was the year we picked up Zaza.   We won 30 games. 

So look at what we have by year 3.   

Young guys:  Marvin, Smoove, Childress, Acie, Shelden.

Vets:  Joe, Zaza, Lue, Speedy Claxton, Lorenzen Wright, and Anthony Johnson.

Lots of potential... as good a free agents as we have ever had.  30-52.

2007...  We draft Al Horford.   We traded for Bibby.   37 wins.   Finally we made it back to the playoffs.   This is year 4 and this would be the team that gives Joe Johnson a 121 Million deal to keep him.  This would be the team that see a merry go round of young players leave.. namely Childress.   And those who stay we have to overpay... Smoove and Marvin.   And the team learned how to get value from value because it realized that this is not a place where good FAs come.   

But now.. new GM... think he knows something...  And you think it will be 3 years... Come on... First the GM has to learn from his mistakes. 

 

Why do you continue to use the past as a reference point????  None of the players bare any resemblance to players drafted in the past so how can you compare them?  Plus the GM, coach and Owners are different so why do you continue to compare apples and oranges???

 

 

 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

 

We would have been in CAP HELL??

 

What exactly is that?  Is that the place where you can't pay Jamal Crawford 12 Million dollars to play for Minnesota?

Oh yeah.. it's the place where you let talent go for nothing and miss out on trading them for more talent..especially when they are in the last year of their deal. 

 

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We would have been in CAP HELL??

 

What exactly is that?  Is that the place where you can't pay Jamal Crawford 12 Million dollars to play for Minnesota?

Oh yeah.. it's the place where you let talent go for nothing and miss out on trading them for more talent..especially when they are in the last year of their deal. 

 

Cap hell for at least 3 years whereas Crawford's and Belinelli's salaries come off the books next year

[BrazilianHawk]

21 hours ago, hazer said:

Wasn't talking about a championship, just refuting the "years in the lottery treadmill" nonsense. Over 5 years to win 41 games in a season??? Only took them 3 years after the 13-win season, with an inferior coach. Care to place a wager on that?

I don't gamble. I don't bet. I got my opinion, and it could be wrong. So could yours.

I certainly hope it won't take this long, but I'm seeing nothing so far that would make me think the Hawks will be any good anytime soon.

.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I think a team of KG, Pierce, Joe, Lopez, and Deron Williams was not that bad.  KG and Pierce were fresh off a championship.  They were just too old.

Agreed - they were waaayyyy too old.  KG was 37 years old when they acquired him.  They were in no way "fresh" off a championship.  This was the sixth season after the championship and both Garnett and PP were clearly on the decline.  KG had so little left in the tank that he averaged 6.5 ppg that first season with the Nets.  That trade was one of the worst in the history of the game.  

The Wallace trade was abysmal as well (two seasons over which combined he averaged less than 10 ppg for Damian Lilliard).  The Joe trade was a solid win for us with the only downside being that the Nets didn't truly start to suck until our window for a draft windfall had passed.  

You can just keep going.  Billy King was the worst GM for his team and the best team for other execs to brutalize in trades.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Cap hell for at least 3 years whereas Crawford's and Belinelli's salaries come off the books next year

We Still owe Crawford a little money next year.  Dwight's salary would have come off after next year.  Plumlee will still be pulling down 12.5 Million the year after next.