Are we moving too fast towards Positionless basketball

[Diesel]

The question is are we moving to fast towards positionless basketball?

Personally, I believe that Basketball goes through fads... like 6'9" PGs and triangle offense and so on.  I think the latest fad is position-less basketball. 

To me, this seems like the direction we're going and I will tell you the problems I have with it.   First.. why is it in style?  I would say.. Golden State.   Really Draymond Green.  Because Green can play the 3-5.. I think that GS has taken advantage of that and created a dominant Small ball lineup amongst it's conventional lineup.   Unfortunately... the fine print should read... don't do this unless you have 2 MVPs and Draymond Green.

 

As you look at how we're built.. we're projecting Dennis, Baze, Prince, Collins, and Ersan as possible starters.  If you've been taking note... that's 1,2,3,3,4.

I think that's a problem...  Here's the problems... 

In the words of Chuck Daly.. you are what you defend.  What will our guys defend or how will they defend?

Dennis is 172lbs.  He will have problems on bigger PGs and we can't have a switching defense where he switches to a bigger 2.. 

Baze... has tried guarding 3s...with not much success.   Plus, i don't want to see him getting trucked by Lebron. 

Prince gives me hope.   He has good size for the three.

Collins.. has good size but his defensive background is bad.  IF he couldn't guard 4s at Wake Forest, what's he going to guard in the NBA?

Whether it's Ersan or Moose the only reason they are starting is because they are experienced. I hear people calling Diamond Stone or Dedmond but I don't see either of these guys starting til probably April Under Bud.

Our biggest issue will come from the 4 spot though.  When you consider the 4s in this league, there are still a lot of guys who are physical.. including now Millsap.  I just hope that we don't send Collins to the bench after starting him because we moved to the positionless basketball too soon. 

 

[KB21]

I agree with the premise that positionless basketball, or small ball is a fad.  I disagree with you that this is the direction the Hawks are going in.  If they play Collins as a center, then yeah.  They may be trying to do that.  However, I think Collins is a long term four man, and with other teams trying to find a small ball four that can run with Draymond, I think the Hawks may actually be zagging while the rest of the league is zigging.  

I wouldn't make much of Collins's defense at Wake Forest.  The fact is, no rookie is a good defender.   He has no physical limitations that would prevent him from becoming a good defender in the NBA.  His potential on offense with his low post game, ability to run the floor, ability to face up, and his developing jumper makes him a nightmare for teams to guard with a small ball four.  This is the zag to the rest of the league if they do it right.

Maybe I'm giving Travis Schlenk too much credit though.

While I'm not trying to push the hype train on this player and I have significant reservations, if DeAndre Ayton is as good as he is being hyped, then the potential combo of Ayton and Collins can't be guarded by a small ball line up.

I think there are a couple of market inefficiencies that have come up with all the emphasis on small ball line ups and three point shooting.  Low post offense and the mid range game have become undervalued.

The worst thing Travis Schlenk can do is try to recreate the Warriors..  You can't do it without Curry, Durant, and Green.  

[Diesel]

I do like Collin's offense... a heap.  I don't know if he will translate to a 4 for a couple of years.  You say he doesn't have physical limitations... I think he's not strong enough yet.  You are what you define is my golden rule ( i stole from Chuck Daly).   With the likes of Anthony Davis and even Jabari Parker.. i don't know if he's ready for the banging.  But we shall see.  IF he can catch up defensively and we can get a win in the draft and pick somebody like Micheal Porter or Ayton or Nick Richards....  it will be interesting in Atlanta.   You know they think it's small ball but a bunch of Bigs are coming.   The fad is about to be over.  Get out your PNR and Post up playbooks. 

[DBac]

I agree the way to success is to grab some dominant 2 way big men and kill these small ball 5s. The hardest part will be finding someone who won't get run off the floor on defense, there are a lot of good offensive bigs but you just can't play them vs these small ball teams because they can't defend and 3>2. I remember Cleveland was getting hammered trying Bron and Love at the 5 vs Jonas Valanciunas. Unfortunately he's not a great defender and Cleveland was able to pull away anyway.

 

I'm in on Mo Bamba and Wendell Carter. Rumors that Bamba's shot isn't broken and he has some nice touch around the rim. Carter is gonna be hard to handle, I wish he was an inch or two taller but he's still a big dude.

Edited July 25, 2017 by DBac

[Diesel]

Well, the advantage in Basketball right now is the stetch 4 and 5.  They all rely on the 3 ball or the midrange shot going in.  However, they give up the rebound.. so now we're talking about winning by FG%.   The team that can control the boards in a dominant fashion and put up High points in the paint and force fouls will beat these small ball teams.  I watched Cleveland dominate us with Korver that way.  2nd and 3rd chance opportunities and putting your best bigs in foul trouble is domination. 

[lburner30342]

more like pointless basketball when it comes to the hawks this year.

[DrReality]

All-potential team!?  

[benhillboy]

It would be in great error to try to recreate what the Warriors and KD are doing.  They technically don't even play with a PG.  The league is staying patient hoping Klay goes for the money and leaves and hopefully the spirit of competition can be somewhat restored.

@Diesel , you just has some quirky favorites.  You loved Joe, Jeff, and Dwight, all guys I told you over and over were  vastly overrated and ultimately finished their Hawk careers on bad notes.  Just trust me on this one; Collins is a 4 and he's gonna do pretty well out the gate.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

The game is always evolving... Back in the 50's/60's/70's, the game was basically 2 point guards and 3 forwards. Positionless basketball is in the realm of possibilities, especially since centers shoot three's and point forwards exist.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

It would be in great error to try to recreate what the Warriors and KD are doing.  They technically don't even play with a PG.  The league is staying patient hoping Klay goes for the money and leaves and hopefully the spirit of competition can be somewhat restored.

@Diesel , you just has some quirky favorites.  You loved Joe, Jeff, and Dwight, all guys I told you over and over were  vastly overrated and ultimately finished their Hawk careers on bad notes.  Just trust me on this one; Collins is a 4 and he's gonna do pretty well out the gate.

No disrespeck.. but isn't this you. 

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I'm not any good at this but I was thinking Wilson Chandler and Alexey Shved for our two picks this year (not Brooklyn's) and Jenkins. I don't want Bigs from anywhere else unless it was Tyler Zeller. I'm very confident Payne, Moose, and Tavares will have cemented roles this time next year.

 

I'm not getting high off of a summer league performance.  However, I will say this... Collins is going to be good offensively... I just don't know what he will guard on defense.   I think it takes him about 2 years before he's good as a pro. 

 

[MaceCase]

43 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

The game is always evolving... Back in the 50's/60's/70's, the game was basically 2 point guards and 3 forwards. Positionless basketball is in the realm of possibilities, especially since centers shoot three's and point forwards exist.

Yes, I don't see it as being "small ball", that's been around since Nellie cracked open his first Bud.  "Positionless" deals with a much larger percentage of big men and forwards now having guard skills blurring the defined roles between positions.  Take Boston for instance, their 6'10" Center is their leading passer, their 6'2" SG was their leading rebounder, and their 5'9" PG was their leading inside scorer.   This is a case of the dynamics being flipped, we're not looking at 6'8" Boris Diaws at Center here, we're looking at 7'+ KATs, Porzingis, Cousins, Davis, Embiid etc. dribbling cross court trough traffic for reverse layups, making crossover step back jumpers, running off screens for 3s, in addition to 7 footers like Jokic being the floor general.

[benhillboy]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

No disrespeck.. but isn't this you. 

I'm not getting high off of a summer league performance.  However, I will say this... Collins is going to be good offensively... I just don't know what he will guard on defense.   I think it takes him about 2 years before he's good as a pro. 

 

Some serious digging there huh!  You could've found something stupid I said about Oladipo and Bebe too.  I was a year or so off on Moose although many can argue he's never had a role.  You got me but I like how you didn't quote me on Dellavadova or Olynk.

Adrien Payne tho!  @NBASupes was all over him being a bust, props on that one.

Edited July 26, 2017 by benhillboy

[sillent]

10 hours ago, benhillboy said:

10 hours ago, benhillboy said:

It would be in great error to try to recreate what the Warriors and KD are doing.  They technically don't even play with a PG.  The league is staying patient hoping Klay goes for the money and leaves and hopefully the spirit of competition can be somewhat restored.

@Diesel , you just has some quirky favorites.  You loved Joe, (Jeff), and Dwight, all guys I told you over and over were  vastly overrated and ultimately finished their Hawk careers on bad notes.  Just trust me on this one; Collins is a 4 and he's gonna do pretty well out the gate.

Let's leave Jeff out of this. He just doesn't have the spirit or heart of Dennis and his vets were guys like my boy non chalant J Smoove. Who learned from a non chalant Joe Johnson and a big softy Horford. Jeff Teague has the skills but he just didn't gain the consistent will to want to be great. Dennis does which I'm excited about because he should keep getting better. Jeff tried to play the fit in role on his home team in Indiana and it cost him although with the team he just got traded to ( Newly Loaded Minnesota) he might fit in just fine.

 

 

[sillent]

9 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

The game is always evolving... Back in the 50's/60's/70's, the game was basically 2 point guards and 3 forwards. Positionless basketball is in the realm of possibilities, especially since centers shoot three's and point forwards exist.

[hazer]

5 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Some serious digging there huh!  You could've found something stupid I said about Oladipo and Bebe too.  I was a year or so off on Moose although many can argue he's never had a role.  You got me but I like how you didn't quote me on Dellavadova or Olynk.

Adrien Payne tho!  @NBASupes was all over him being a bust, props on that one.

I said some pretty stupid $hit about Bebe too. Man was I wrong about him...

[NBASupes]

On 7/26/2017 at 10:04 PM, hazer said:

I said some pretty stupid $hit about Bebe too. Man was I wrong about him...

We all did. Bebe had some good traits but size matters in the NBA 

[Thomas]

Thought he would end up at some point being the guy that blocks a shot on one end and then ends up slamming a missed fast break shot home on the other, for us that is. Not just summer league either but was not to be. Felt like Dale Murphy seeing a full count pitch low and outside, he either hits a homer or ends up striking out. A miss.