An interesting Statistical view of Dennis.

[Diesel]

A statistical view of Dennis.

 

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Schröder was in the 34th percentile as a scorer, per SynergySportsTech.com. He averaged .898 points per possession… but that sells him a little short. If we include his possession-plus-assists numbers, he averaged 1.244 points per possession, which ranked in the 74th percentile. On pick-and-rolls, he was in the 62nd percentile. On isolation plays, he was in the 70th percentile.

Those two play types accounted for 61.6 percent of his plays. On spot-ups, he was in the 93rd percentile, but that type accounted for only 10.2 percent of his plays. The problem is that he’s responsible for running the more inefficient plays. He’s very good off the bounce and can get to the rim, but what could help him and his efficiency is learning to hesitate here and there to draw fouls. His free throw rate last year was just 0.021 according to Basketball-Reference.com. As an 85 percent shooter from the stripe, an extra trip or two per game would be a big help.

For us not being an iso team. that fact that a large number of Dennis' plays were iso plays is concerning. 

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Defense

Defense is a bigger concern. His 0.925 Synergy numbers are already just in the 43rd percentile, but that came when playing on a good defense. The anchors of that good defense are playing on other teams now. He gave up 3.6 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the court without Millsap.

He doesn’t see picks well, and when he gets caught by them, a lot of times he’ll give up on the play, rather than chase the ballhandler. 

Millsap will be missed. 

[KB21]

Some of this tells us things we already knew, like Dennis needs a secondary ball handler in the line up.  It's not that different than when Dennis operated as a secondary ball handler for Jeff Teague.  

I would like to see the actual breakdown of pick and roll vs isolation in that percentage that was quoted.  I'd guys based on the eyeball test that the higher portion of that percentage was pick and roll opportunities.  

[thecampster]

Most of the ISO plays referenced are actually just missed PnR plays that he took himself.

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, thecampster said:

Most of the ISO plays referenced are actually just missed PnR plays that he took himself.

 

I don't know about that.   Dennis has a habit of moving the offense around and then trying to make a play going to the rim.   Either him or Delaney is the most disruptive force to Budball ever.

 

[RedDawg#8]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

I don't know about that.   Dennis has a habit of moving the offense around and then trying to make a play going to the rim.   Either him or Delaney is the most disruptive force to Budball ever.

 

You really don't like Dennis.

But you're a believer in Baze.

 

Unfortunatey for you, you're wrong about both players. 

 

Dennis is a young rising star. Coach Bud pushes him to be more and more aggressive attacking the rim. You don't like him because of his perceived arrogance and that's fine. But Dennis is our franchise player whether you accept it or not.

[benhillboy]

Advanced numbers will never be kind to him as s starter.

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

You really don't like Dennis.

But you're a believer in Baze.

 

Unfortunatey for you, you're wrong about both players. 

 

Dennis is a young rising star. Coach Bud pushes him to be more and more aggressive attacking the rim. You don't like him because of his perceived arrogance and that's fine. But Dennis is our franchise player whether you accept it or not.

I have seen Budball work in Atlanta.  I have seen how it works in Atlanta.  It works by ball movement.   When it works, it's a thing of Beauty.   I don't think Bud pushes Dennis to be more aggressive... Dennis has been aggressive since he's been here. 

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Budenholzer said he and Schröder have had several conversations about his new role.

“One of the biggest things we’ve talked about is his work ethic, his approach, putting time in after practice, putting time in on days off, I think he’s done a good job of that,” Budenholzer said. “When he’s working, you see the benefits of it in his play. Whether he’s playing great or is having a tough night, if he come backs and works the next day then that becomes the consistency of his work life, and it carries over to how he plays each night.”

Some things don't need explanation, however, reading between the lines, it seems that Bud is not happy with the consistency of Dennis' work ethic.   Seemingly, Dennis doesn't put in time after practice (all the time).  Moreover, it suggest that maybe Dennis feels like he already knows what to do or he doesn't need to get better.  Insert Allen Iverson's practice quote right here...

 

[Lurker]

This is hilarious. Please stop. Dennis Schröder is not Marvin Williams even if you want him to be.

[RedDawg#8]

32 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I have seen Budball work in Atlanta.  I have seen how it works in Atlanta.  It works by ball movement.   When it works, it's a thing of Beauty.   I don't think Bud pushes Dennis to be more aggressive... Dennis has been aggressive since he's been here. 

Some things don't need explanation, however, reading between the lines, it seems that Bud is not happy with the consistency of Dennis' work ethic.   Seemingly, Dennis doesn't put in time after practice (all the time).  Moreover, it suggest that maybe Dennis feels like he already knows what to do or he doesn't need to get better.  Insert Allen Iverson's practice quote right here..

Sure, you can "read between the lines" and draw that conclusion, but that doesn't make it true:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/news/hawks-dont-regret-betting-dennis-Schröder-154829392.html

“Dennis’ competitive spirit and his competitive nature, I think we’re always going to bet on that first,” Budenholzer said. “He puts in time. He wants to be really good. He’s got a lot of confidence but it’s laced with some humility, and he knows that he’s got a long ways to go.”

Budenholzer said Schröder “might try to do too much on occasion” but the Hawks have always encouraged him to be aggressive while keeping his teammates involved. 

 

 

So this article confirms Dennis doesn't have a work ethic issue. It also confirms Bud is ok with Dennis' aggressive nature. And in fact it proves that Bud believes Dennis has enough humility to want to get better so your AI practice comparison is empty. 

Dennis can always improve sharing the ball. But he IS the point guard and the ball will inevitably be in his hands the most. We can pass and cut, pass and cut all day in the half court, but you need dribble penetration in any offense for it to truly shine, and Dennis was the only guy we had that could consistently break down a defense. So I think the idea that he is somehow ANTI Budball is simply not true, considering the guy who created Budball is the same guy that chose him over Teague, extended his contract and keeps him as a starter and centerpiece on this roster.

Maybe you should let coach Bud know just how bad Dennis is in his offensive system since you know Budball better than Bud.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Sure, you can "read between the lines" and draw that conclusion, but that doesn't make it true:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/news/hawks-dont-regret-betting-dennis-Schröder-154829392.html

“Dennis’ competitive spirit and his competitive nature, I think we’re always going to bet on that first,” Budenholzer said. “He puts in time. He wants to be really good. He’s got a lot of confidence but it’s laced with some humility, and he knows that he’s got a long ways to go.”

Budenholzer said Schröder “might try to do too much on occasion” but the Hawks have always encouraged him to be aggressive while keeping his teammates involved. 

 

 

 

I looked at this yahoo article that you posted and I missed the quote in red... please show me where to find it. 

[Lurker]

You have to click to expand all long Yahoo articles now. I sometimes get lazy and don't but I did with the purpose of finding that quote and did in 2 seconds.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I looked at this yahoo article that you posted and I missed the quote in red... please show me where to find it. 

Easy to find:

Schröder has the perfect coach to squeeze out his potential in the Hawks’ Mike Budenholzer, a former NBA Coach of the Year who has held Schröder to an extremely high standard from the moment the team drafted him 17th overall in 2013. Budenholzer wouldn’t play Schröder until he trusted the youngster was ready – and he took extreme measures in Schröder’s rookie year, once immediately calling a timeout to remove him from a game because his jersey was untucked. Schröder would eventually earn Budenholzer’s trust and caught the attention of management during the Hawks’ 60-win season in 2014-15, when he won his first eight games starting in place of Teague. Last season, the Hawks felt they had two starting-caliber point guards but realized they would have to make a choice. With Teague set to become an unrestricted free agent this summer and being a more attractive trade asset, the Hawks flipped him in a three-way deal that yielded the draft pick that became Taurean Prince, a rookie swingman starting in his first postseason. The Hawks then gave Schröder a four-year, $70 million extension that supported their commitment.

“Dennis’ competitive spirit and his competitive nature, I think we’re always going to bet on that first,” Budenholzer said. “He puts in time. He wants to be really good. He’s got a lot of confidence but it’s laced with some humility, and he knows that he’s got a long ways to go.”

Budenholzer said Schröder “might try to do too much on occasion” but the Hawks have always encouraged him to be aggressive while keeping his teammates involved. With those long arms, wiry frame and noticeable edge, Schröder has supported those comparisons to Rajon Rondo before entering the league. He glides on the court as if he’s still negotiating the skate park on his board in his hometown of Braunschweig, taking off for unexpected dunks or sliding back for step-back 3-pointers.

Schröder’s season hasn’t been without head-scratching moments. He has met the challenge of competing with the best but has also had some momentary lapses in judgment. Budenholzer famously benched Schröder for the final 21 minutes of a loss to Golden State after he got into an argument with Dwight Howard over a poor pass and allowed Stephen Curry to make an uncontested 3-pointer. That incident came shortly after Schröder was late for the team bus and was forced to come off the bench for a game at Orlando. And that incident came a day after Schröder had served a one-game suspension for arriving late from a visit home during the All-Star break because of complications with his visa. His All-Star weekend plans will be different going forward.

[Diesel]

Ok.  because in the article I read and linked above, Bud talked similarly about Dennis being more aggressive but he was specifically talking about after making bad passes or turnovers. 

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With the Hawks’ up-tempo style of play, Budenholzer expects some turnovers. As long as they come in the flow of the game and not are not careless or forced, he can live with some. He said that is what matters to him and not trying to limit the turnovers to a specific number. In fact, he said, if Schröder is not aggressive and is more concerned with not committing turnovers, it adversely affects the Hawks’ offense.

 

[Lurker]

And he will discipline Dennis if he feels like he's gone too far in the wrong direction with his play, let's not get ridiculous.

Do I have to do this for the umpteenth time? Fine I will.

I have said that basketball and football, if you're good you're good and it's cut and dry, but there are two intellectual positions, the QB and the PG in which it's not as simple as that. You are not who you are going to be at a young age. There is often still growth to be had in mid to upper 20s QBs and PGs. Dennis is still growing. To what...I don't know but many of the point guards today were not "who they were at 23 and 24".

That's not the case with Kent. Kent is who he is, he's not as bad as 16/17, but he's not a guy that will continue to grow.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lurker

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And he will discipline Dennis if he feels like he's gone too far in the wrong direction with his play, let's not get ridiculous.

Do I have to do this for the umpteenth time? Fine I will.

I have said that basketball and football, if you're good you're good and it's cut and dry, but there are two intellectual positions, the QB and the PG in which it's not as simple as that. You are not who you are going to be at a young age. There is often still growth to be had in mid to upper 20s QBs and PGs. Dennis is still growing. To what...I don't know but many of the point guards today were not "who they were at 23 and 24".

That's not the case with Kent. Kent is who he is, he's not as bad as 16/17, but he's not a guy that will continue to grow.

Sorry Lurker, that doesn't fly for a guy who has been playing professional basketball since he was 15.   Just doesn't.  Stop making excuses. 

[thecampster]

12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And he will discipline Dennis if he feels like he's gone too far in the wrong direction with his play, let's not get ridiculous.

Do I have to do this for the umpteenth time? Fine I will.

I have said that basketball and football, if you're good you're good and it's cut and dry, but there are two intellectual positions, the QB and the PG in which it's not as simple as that. You are not who you are going to be at a young age. There is often still growth to be had in mid to upper 20s QBs and PGs. Dennis is still growing. To what...I don't know but many of the point guards today were not "who they were at 23 and 24".

That's not the case with Kent. Kent is who he is, he's not as bad as 16/17, but he's not a guy that will continue to grow.

Stop it...stop that right now. You and I are not supposed to agree.

[Lurker]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Sorry Lurker, that doesn't fly for a guy who has been playing professional basketball since he was 15.   Just doesn't.  Stop making excuses. 

Am I supposed to give two rips about a bad German league?

[DBac]

You don't think Dennis is getting any better?

So would you argue that 23 year old Dennis is in the prime of his career? 

 

I don't know how much better he will get but he's not done improving. For someone whose game is based on getting to the basket, you'd hope he takes a step forward in getting to the freethrow line soon. Maybe he starts nailing threes at a better rate like he did in the playoffs. Suddenly he's a load to handle.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Am I supposed to give two rips about a bad German league?

Well, after playing in that terrible league...  Dennis received the attention of everybody by doing this.

Back in 2013... He seemingly outplayed guys like Wiggins, Towns, Exum, Parker, Randle Jefferson, Etc.. while he led his team to victory of the USA Select team.   Here's what they said about him:

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Starting point guard Dennis Schröder also backed up the buzz he generated in practice, handling the US Team's athleticism with ease and dominating the game for stretches with his explosive speed. Finishing with 18 points and 6 assists while fouling out both of the US Team's point guards who spent time defending him, the German point guard was able to get to where he wanted on the floor at will with his excellent first step, ran the pick and roll effectively, and swiftly navigated through the US full-court press on a number of occasions. The 19 year old is a capable shooter and decision-maker, and was as aggressive breaking down his man one-on-one and getting into the paint and drawing contact as we'd seen all week. Declaring for the draft early this week, Schröder capped what has been a big week for his draft outlook. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2013-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Game-Recap-4149/ ©DraftExpress

So now.. it's 4 years later.   He's had 2 years of 20+ mpg before becoming full time starter.  Why are you still making excuses?  IF it were Dennis at 19, I would understand.  But this is that Dennis that dominated at 19.. with 4 more years of experience playing against the best and you're making him sound like he's a 17 year old straight out of High School.  He has never been a 17 year old straight out of high school because he was playing with professionals since he was 15.  

[kurupt]

You have no idea about Dennis career in Germany, Diesel. Just stop pulling stuff out of your ass...