Why is TS% a thing?

[StephenHawking]

I saw it many times before on nba boards and saw it again with Dennis first two games. People complain about shooting efficiency. As far as I know it reflects the points you average per shot. The points from freethrows get counted but the shots wont. The thing I am asking myself is  why should it be in any way better to shoot 2 free throws and make them then to hit a  2 point shot? 

What's better, taking dennis as example, in shooting 9-18 and hitting 10 free throws than shooting 14-26 or something? 

I mean you have to drive the same amount of times. Its not like you have a considerably lower usage. 

I can't understand the stat from an efficiency-point-of-view.

You can argue that free throws are easier to convert than fg but that's not worked into the stat. It simply measures points per shot as far as I know, am I right?

Also with trying to draw fouls there's always a risk of loosing the ball without being fouled. Most likely you'll turn the ball over more often than compared to having the ball secured so nobody can even try to contest.

[StephenHawking]

Ok i checked the formula and it makes a  little more sense to me but it is still hella flawed.

I figured out that they actually work fta's in but I don't get why they multiply fta by 0.44 . The biggest flaw essentially is how people see ts%. Maybe it's relatively accurate but it won't measure the amount of failure that comes with trying to get fouled. People see for example a true shooting of 60% and say great. When you'd also figure out that the guy averages 6tos due to trying to get fouled it looks a lot worse. 

I hope it's understandable what I meant. 

 

[AHF]

It is the best stat out there for measuring shooting efficiency.  I think it does a fine job with free throws (the .44 number deals with the balance between free throws added to made field goals, taken without a field goal attempt, and taken on a missed field goal attempt) but TS% completely does not address TOs or assists or screens or any other aspect of the offense.  It is not the end-all, be-all stat for offense.  Just a good measure of how efficient a scorer you are when you shoot the ball given your current offense and role in the offense.   Like most statistics, you have to combine it with other information to make a sensible use of it (like shot volume, role on offense, etc.)

[StephenHawking]

Thanks for your knowledge 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

I saw it many times before on nba boards and saw it again with Dennis first two games. People complain about shooting efficiency. As far as I know it reflects the points you average per shot. The points from freethrows get counted but the shots wont. The thing I am asking myself is  why should it be in any way better to shoot 2 free throws and make them then to hit a  2 point shot? 

What's better, taking dennis as example, in shooting 9-18 and hitting 10 free throws than shooting 14-26 or something? 

I mean you have to drive the same amount of times. Its not like you have a considerably lower usage. 

I can't understand the stat from an efficiency-point-of-view.

You can argue that free throws are easier to convert than fg but that's not worked into the stat. It simply measures points per shot as far as I know, am I right?

Also with trying to draw fouls there's always a risk of loosing the ball without being fouled. Most likely you'll turn the ball over more often than compared to having the ball secured so nobody can even try to contest.

Sounds like the excuse train is getting revved up.  I hate the fact that Dennis Leads the League in field Goal attempts AND Field Goals Missed.   I am amazed at the fact that Greek Freak has 2 less attempted than Dennis right now (67) and he's not in the top 18 of Missed Field Goals.  That guy will be League MVP.

 

 

[StephenHawking]

vor 21 Minuten, Diesel sagte:

Sounds like the excuse train is getting revved up.  I hate the fact that Dennis Leads the League in field Goal attempts AND Field Goals Missed.   I am amazed at the fact that Greek Freak has 2 less attempted than Dennis right now (67) and he's not in the top 18 of Missed Field Goals.  That guy will be League MVP.

 

 

No its no excuse at all. As I said it's not about Dennis. He was just the latest example for me to think about the stats meaning. 

I don't like Dennis taking that much shots just so you know. But I don't mind at the moment. There's many things this team has to learn before Dennis shot attempts should be an issue. He played pass first the last game. Even overpassed it at times which wasn't helping at all. At the moment he's the only one on this team able to create his own shot. It simple logic that he takes the most shots by a wide margin. But you going to see others guys getting featured more and more throughout the season after they get more confident with their shot. 

I like how you cause discussions everywhere you are due to disagreeing with every common opinion. 

But i gotta admit that at one thing I'm actually agreeing with you. Giannis will be MVP. But you shouldn't compare Dennis with him. Nobody is of the opinion that Dennis is the same kind of talented player Giannis is. Thats just you overexaggerating every time to make your point more obvious when in reality it just makes you look worse than you probably are.

Edited October 23, 2017 by StephenHawking

[Thomas]

19 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

Giannis will be MVP.

I know its going off topic but The Freak is averaging 67% on 22 shots per game from the floor over three games. Just doesn't cease to amaze and does this really from four different positions at times. And wow he was so close to being ours.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3032977/giannis-antetokounmpo

[kurupt]

TS% is a good stat. What you should always consider is that you cannot just make a team of "advanced stat darlings" and think it would actually a good basketball team.

Players usually have great advanced stats in some categories if they are either super-talented (superstars) OR they know exactly what they are good at and do little else.

But if you would create a team of, say, "5 Shane Battiers" with the approopriate heights for their respective postions, that team wouldn't work. No one on that team could initiate offense or break down a defense and you can only score so many points just off of off-ball movement and ball movement if you can't open up the defense.

[Lurker]

The only sport in which you can really take in mostly advanced analytics is baseball. In basketball you can use it, but you can't abuse it. You have to take in more factors. 

In American football while we have them, it's something mostly to look at. That's why imo I feel American Football is the most plug and play sport you have, outside of at QB. If you're good you're good, and you can get better at being good.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

TS% skews the importance of spot up - low volume shooters.  If that's all you're trying to stack your team up with ( cough ) Hawks ( cough ), then you're going to be in a world of hurt on most nights.  Spot up shooters either need great ball movement, or a good to great player that draws a lot of attention to themselves, in order for them to get shots off. 

This is why as great of a shooter Kover was, there were plenty of nights in which he'd not even reach double figures, because he wasn't open enough to get his shots up.    As a starter, a 4 - 7 FG ( 3 - 3 3FG ) for 11 points game from Korver, would see his TS% be almost 80%.  At the end of the day though, despite his high shooting percentage, he only got you 11 points.

So which is better?  11 points off of an 80% TS . . . . or 21 points off of a 55% TS?  Especially if the guy who scored 21 points has the ability to create his own shot?  One guy shot great on just 7 FGA but no FTAs . . . while the other guy may have shot 6 - 16 FG  ( 2 - 5 3FG ), but was also 7 - 9 from the FT line.

[StephenHawking]

Yeah the thing is how people interpret ts% not what it actually measures. Most fans simply say better ts%, better player on offense when that's not the case. 

[KB21]

2 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

Yeah the thing is how people interpret ts% not what it actually measures. Most fans simply say better ts%, better player on offense when that's not the case. 

I don't think that's what most fans say at all.  TS% is a measure of shooting efficiency, period, and shooting efficiency is one of the critical four factors when it comes to winning basketball games.  The more efficient shooting you are as a team, the better your chances of winning.  

Your better offensive players will be the ones who have both a high usage and high shooting efficiency numbers.  Your better players overall will be those who combine efficient offense with other aspects that contribute to winning games.  

Most fans believe that the more points you score, the better you are as a player.  Fans in general overvalue high volume shooters.

[JTB]

5 hours ago, Thomas said:

I know its going off topic but The Freak is averaging 67% on 22 shots per game from the floor over three games. Just doesn't cease to amaze and does this really from four different positions at times.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3032977/giannis-antetokounmpo

I’m so jealous of that ...wasn’t Ferry the first to notice him from the nba during his time with the hawks?

Edited October 24, 2017 by JTB

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, JTB said:

I’m so jealous of that ...wasn’t Ferry the first to notice him from the nba during his time with the hawks?

Yes.  Ferry also identified Kristaps Porzingis before everyone else.  I'd feel a lot better about the direction of this organization if Ferry was still running things.

[Diesel]

On 10/23/2017 at 2:19 PM, StephenHawking said:

No its no excuse at all. As I said it's not about Dennis. He was just the latest example for me to think about the stats meaning. 

I don't like Dennis taking that much shots just so you know. But I don't mind at the moment. There's many things this team has to learn before Dennis shot attempts should be an issue. He played pass first the last game. Even overpassed it at times which wasn't helping at all. At the moment he's the only one on this team able to create his own shot. It simple logic that he takes the most shots by a wide margin. But you going to see others guys getting featured more and more throughout the season after they get more confident with their shot. 

You play how you practice!!  You act as though Dennis will somehow, magically realize that he's on a team.  To have a PG lead the league in FG Attempts is laughable if his name is not Westbrook and even Westrbrook caught some flack. 

1	Dennis Schröder	Atlanta Hawks	PG	23.00
2	Kristaps Porzingis	New York Knicks	PF	22.50
3	Giannis Antetokounmpo	Milwaukee Bucks	SF	22.00
4	Carmelo Anthony	Oklahoma City Thunder	SF	21.67
5	James Harden	Houston Rockets	SG	20.75
6	Paul George	Oklahoma City Thunder	SF	20.67
6	Anthony Davis	New Orleans Pelicans	PF	20.67
8	LaMarcus Aldridge	San Antonio Spurs	PF	20.33
8	DeMarcus Cousins	New Orleans Pelicans	PF	20.33
10	Kyrie Irving	Boston Celtics	PG	19.67

The next PG on the list is Irving at #10.   When you consider everybody on this list... do you think that Dennis deserves to be atop it?

Right now, he's 4th in the league in FGs missed.   And he hasn't played as many games as everybody else.    That's not acceptable. 

 

 

[AHF]

Schröder has been a standout player this year but D is right that he has shot the ball too much.

[kurupt]

I will never understand why someone who scores efficiently shouldn't take a lot of shots. It would make sense if we had a Westbrook/Durant situation, but we don't. He is literally the only player that can reliably create shots for himself. Who should take more shots? Bazemore? Prince? WOuld get real ugly if they had to force some shots opossed to just taking the good ones they get now.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, kurupt said:

I will never understand why someone who scores efficiently shouldn't take a lot of shots. It would make sense if we had a Westbrook/Durant situation, but we don't. He is literally the only player that can reliably create shots for himself. Who should take more shots? Bazemore? Prince? WOuld get real ugly if they had to force some shots opossed to just taking the good ones they get now.

Kind of scratching my head that I even need to mention this but Dennis isn't scoring efficiently this year.

You know that.  Baze is averaging more FTA per game.  Dennis is shooting 11% from 3pt range and 42% overall.  That isn't good.

He should improve that but I think one of the reason his shooting numbers are down is because he is forcing some shots.

23 points on 23 FGA sucks.  Nobody can argue that.

I'm not saying Dennis shouldn't be a major part of our offense and our #1 option this year - just that I think he is taking on a little too much so far this year and if he wants to keep carrying that load he needs to start doing what you said above - start scoring efficiently.

[DBac]

For someone that drives as much as Dennis, it is concerning that he doesn't get to the free throw line more, which would help boost his TS% up. 

[Lurker]

It's been just three games, and Dennis was fine in the first two but it's ummm not good that his FTA's haven't increased. It's not too many jumpers. He takes them, sometimes at irritating times (not just to try to open up stuff) but analytics have said he's a big driver inside.

He doesn't have a good reputation around the NBA which hurts imo.