Explanation on Collins

[BenC]

Been a college basketball fan my whole life, Go Heels, however, I'm no basketball expert and have a question. I started following the Hawks 3 years ago and my wife calls me a diehard fan after introducing me to the Hawks. Does it not make sense to play Collins at the 4 and Dedmon/Plumlee at the 5. I think it would open up some space for both of them, and help with rebounding. Just a question and I know you guys will give me some great insight. Thanks! 

[Jdawgflow]

I believe that this will be the lineup in a few months but Bud loves to bring rookies along slowly.  I agree that this is what I would go ahead and do now and bring Illy off the bench.  But Bud will likely not.  I expect Collins will probably progress in trust with Bud at a similar rate as Prince did.

[JTB]

56 minutes ago, Jdawgflow said:

I believe that this will be the lineup in a few months but Bud loves to bring rookies along slowly.  I agree that this is what I would go ahead and do now and bring Illy off the bench.  But Bud will likely not.  I expect Collins will probably progress in trust with Bud at a similar rate as Prince did.

Couldn’t have said it any better! Agree 100%

my only 2 cents to the OP is to leave Plumlee on the bench. I’m not interested in seeing him play. Delaney is enough.

Edited October 29, 2017 by JTB

[Thomas]

Don't believe that Plumlee has been cleared to play yet, could be wrong. Your point remains though because Moose could grab the minutes Dedmon isn't on the floor at center. Collins is definitely a true PF whether he is able to put on more weight or not. Ersan can get minutes at both spots if necessary as well. Bud's mind is just a mystery sometimes and playing a very young Collins at center is certainly one of those times.  

[benhillboy]

The media can force coaches/ GMs hands in cities where they actually care.  Bud doesn’t have to explain any questionable moves he makes in this soft sports media climate.

I’m usually a proponent of bringing a rookie along slowly in favor of a decent vet, especially when he has an underdeveloped frame.  But Ilyasova is shooting .276, there’s nothing “decent” about him.

Edited October 29, 2017 by benhillboy

[BenC]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

Couldn’t have said it any better! Agree 100%

my only 2 cents to the OP is to leave Plumlee on the bench. I’m not interested in seeing him play. Delaney is enough.

Just curious to see in Plumlee brings anything to the table on the interior. I know Moose can fill the minutes at C but honestly I can't figure out Bud's love affair with Moose either. 

[JTB]

1 minute ago, BenC said:

Just curious to see in Plumlee brings anything to the table on the interior. I know Moose can fill the minutes at C but honestly I can't figure out Bud's love affair with Moose either. 

Understand...yeah there’s nothing special about Moose lol. I’ve seen enough of plumlee on the bucks and hornets to know I’d rather have on the bench and ultimately not on this team.

However bud does have his ways of getting the best out of players but there’s likely no way in hell plumlee lives up to what is a massive contract for what he’s truly worth and that’s probably what upsets me about him though it’s not his fault the bucks gave him all that money....I just know his production on the court doesn’t live up to the amount we pay him (it’s a lot worst than bazemore situation).

[Wurider05]

Bud has always been consistent about the defense thing. If you have  defensive issues you don't play.

[TheFuzz]

16 minutes ago, Wurider05 said:

Bud has always been consistent about the defense thing. If you have  defensive issues you don't play.

On top of that Collins has gotten into some foul trouble too. Am I reading right that he had 5 fouls against the Nugs in only 14 minutes? Hard to stay on the floor like that.

[thecampster]

Defensively speaking, the college game is very different than the pro-game. In the pro game, teams isolate matchups that favor them offensively. Because of ability of pro level players to properly pick, roll, drive and kick, Pro level defenders must know where 2 players at all times on the floor are....their responsibility and their switch. Collins can handle almost any switch. But he doesn't have the rear end to man up the best 4/5's in the game.  Teams are getting him right now when he gives up position to help on a drive/kick. He loses his own man and then is committing fouls. Because he is a light player, he needs to constantly be in position on his man to stop his drives and teams are taking advantage of college experience with zones to un-position him.  On iso defense, stronger/post like players are getting him to commit early and using that to draw and 1's.  

In the pro's, far superior players are on the floor in the primary rotation and Collins weaknesses on defense would be on full display. He's improving but he needs 30+ games at least and tons of 1v1 coaching to change his instincts.

[thecampster]

What you are seeing here is Bud U on full display. They are working with him every day, specifically in the weight room and in 3v3 sets. 1 driver, 1 post and 1 kick.  You'd need to defend it a thousand times right to start to break bad habits.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The issue to me is with Collins not starting, or at least not playing alongside Dedmon.  If Bud is trying to develop Collins into a 5, why not play him with a few of the guys that we HOPE will be his teammates for the next 5 - 8 years?  Even if Bud limits his minutes to 20 - 25 per game, you can still start him.

Unless he thinks the team might start to gel with him as a starter, and win too many games.

[AHF]

Best guess is Bud is telling him the D needs to improve.

[Peoriabird]

21 hours ago, Wurider05 said:

Bud has always been consistent about the defense thing. If you have  defensive issues you don't play.

Do you really think that is true Mike?

I don't think so because I never played any and I played a lot

I tried but I couldn't get that defense thing down for some reason and it didn't keep me on the bench.

I don't know why they are singling out Collins cause half the team can't play defense.  Have y'all seen Belinelli defense? What about Delaney, Babbitt, Magette.

Heck, I'm not that great either but no one limits my minutes.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Do you really think that is true Mike?

I don't think so because I never played any and I played a lot

I tried but I couldn't get that defense thing down for some reason and it didn't keep me on the bench.

I don't know why they are singling out Collins cause half the team that can't play defense.  Have y'all seen Belinelli defense? What about Delaney, Babbitt, Magette.

Heck, I'm not that great either but no one limits my minutes.

What an excellent post!!

[Peoriabird]

On 10/28/2017 at 11:55 PM, BenC said:

Been a college basketball fan my whole life, Go Heels, however, I'm no basketball expert and have a question. I started following the Hawks 3 years ago and my wife calls me a diehard fan after introducing me to the Hawks. Does it not make sense to play Collins at the 4 and Dedmon/Plumlee at the 5. I think it would open up some space for both of them, and help with rebounding. Just a question and I know you guys will give me some great insight. Thanks! 

To answer your question...Collins looks, plays and has the physical ability of a prototypical power forward.  There is nothing about his game that translates to the Center position but yet Bud continues to force feed the position to him while fan questions his defense against Players like Dwight Howard.  All of his minutes should be focused on learning the power forward position but we all know Bud has put Millsap at center and 4 guards.  Collins probably would be further along with a coach who understands how to feature him.

[Thomas]

There were posts last season wondering if Moose had some incriminating photos of Bud or something similar. With Ersan out there is no choice now but in the past its been pretty inexplicable that Moose gets good minutes. In the past when Dennis goes off the floor or Moose comes on the floor prepare for an opponents run, because it would always happen. Hopefully Taylor will solve the backup to Dennis part. 

[aali34]

It doesn't bother me too much that Collins isn't starting. A lot of NBA stars began their careers with bench production. I'm just happy that he isn't in the G-League.

[Packfill]

51 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

To answer your question...Collins looks, plays and has the physical ability of a prototypical power forward.  There is nothing about his game that translates to the Center position but yet Bud continues to force feed the position to him while fan questions his defense against Players like Dwight Howard.  All of his minutes should be focused on learning the power forward position but we all know Bud has put Millsap at center and 4 guards.  Collins probably would be further along with a coach who understands how to feature him.

Unless Collins develops some range on his shot and learns how to be more of a playmaker for others I think his long term best fit is at center. 

I think the worry with Collins is be becomes a guy whose game does not translate to heavy minutes and has more of an Ed Davis type of career. 

Obviously he is only a rookie and has talent so he will hopefully develop into more.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, Packfill said:

Unless Collins develops some range on his shot and learns how to be more of a playmaker for others I think his long term best fit is at center.

I respectfully disagree.  His lateral quickness and agility alone makes his potential greater at power forward.  How many 3's did Millsap hit before coming to Atlanta.  How bout DMC?  Howard is a center, John Collins is not sorry.