Explanation on Collins

[Mdizzle5]

A lot of these comments sound like the opposite of some of the comments about Horford's best position.  

 

Collins is best as a PF. Bud playing him at center is just another moment of Bud's stubborn attempt to fit a square peg into triangle.

[MaceCase]

F and C are so interchangeable that I’m really not seeing what possible argument people are making about Collins development being hurt... like is there a secret handshake exclusive to PFs that he’s not getting the reps at learning?

Beyond that, there’s only one true Center on the roster, he plays barely 25 minutes a game.  If you eliminate Collins time at Center how much more time on the floor do you think he’s getting?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

19 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

F and C are so interchangeable that I’m really not seeing what possible argument people are making about Collins development being hurt... like is there a secret handshake exclusive to PFs that he’s not getting the reps at learning?

Beyond that, there’s only one true Center on the roster, he plays barely 25 minutes a game.  If you eliminate Collins time at Center how much more time on the floor do you think he’s getting?

So if the positions are interchangeable, why isn't Collins starting at the 4 with Dedmon?  Or a better question, why doesn't Collins play at all alongside Dedmon even a little bit?

Bud is in love with his "stretch 4s". Guys who can't even hit the broad side of a barn right now.  I get it.  We're tanking.  But that's no excuse to not maximize Collins' potential.  If Bud is going to continue with the Dedmon/Collins rotation at the 5, I want Collins to be the starter.

Can't do that though.  Because God forbid he develops some sort of chemistry with Dennis and Taurean.

[Lurker]

Bud sees Collins as a future center.

[MaceCase]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So if the positions are interchangeable, why isn't Collins starting at the 4 with Dedmon?  Or a better question, why doesn't Collins play at all alongside Dedmon even a little bit?

Bud is in love with his "stretch 4s". Guys who can't even hit the broad side of a barn right now.  I get it.  We're tanking.  But that's no excuse to not maximize Collins' potential.  If Bud is going to continue with the Dedmon/Collins rotation at the 5, I want Collins to be the starter.

Can't do that though.  Because God forbid he develops some sort of chemistry with Dennis and Taurean.

Not sure I'm following here, you seem to be all over the place.  So you're saying that Collins is a Center and should start there but Bud is tanking so he starts the vet over him?  Eh.

As I mentioned in the entire part of my post where if Collins plays exclusively next to Dedmon he'd see a negligible rise in minutes....and that's only if Bud chooses to handcuff him exclusively to Dedmon.  So where is the "maximizing" of his potential there?  The rest of the time he's going to be playing at Center, correct?

Bud is matching skillsets, something he's not alone in given that 99.99999% of the NBA is matching their frontcourts with at least one shooting big next to one paint big whether they be at PF or C.  So God forbid people stop mentioning that as though it's some sort of special aspect exclusive to Bud.  Even Rudy Gobert spends a third of his minutes with either Thabo or Joe at PF whilst the rest of the time Favors is attempting more and more 3s.  Either Dedmon increases his volume of 3s or either the Uzbeki or Musky bulk up, till then Collins will play at Center because that's where his skillset is best suited and more importantly, where he is most comfortable within the context of the rest of roster.  It's either that or you hope he transforms his game to current Blake Griffin or post knee injury Amar'e over night.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Not sure I'm following here, you seem to be all over the place.  So you're saying that Collins is a Center and should start there but Bud is tanking so he starts the vet over him?  Eh.

As I mentioned in the entire part of my post where if Collins plays exclusively next to Dedmon he'd see a negligible rise in minutes....and that's only if Bud chooses to handcuff him exclusively to Dedmon.  So where is the "maximizing" of his potential there?  The rest of the time he's going to be playing at Center, correct?

Bud is matching skillsets, something he's not alone in given that 99.99999% of the NBA is matching their frontcourts with at least one shooting big next to one paint big whether they be at PF or C.  So God forbid people stop mentioning that as though it's some sort of special aspect exclusive to Bud.  Even Rudy Gobert spends a third of his minutes with either Thabo or Joe at PF whilst the rest of the time Favors is attempting more and more 3s.  Either Dedmon increases his volume of 3s or either the Uzbeki or Musky bulk up, till then Collins will play at Center because that's where his skillset is best suited and more importantly, where he is most comfortable within the context of the rest of roster.  It's either that or you hope he transforms his game to current Blake Griffin or post knee injury Amar'e over night.

If you play Collins and Dedmon together, you may as well play Dedmon as the "stretch guy" on the outside, seeing that almost 40% of his shots are coming from 16+ feet right now anyway.  Collins is much more active offensively around the rim.  The question is if that lineup could work defensively?  Personally, I don't see how worse it could be than the lineups we're currently throwing out there right now.

As far as maximizing Collins' potential, part of that is to play him alongside people who can make him better.  If Bud is steadfast in playing him at center for most of his minutes, why not play him more minutes with the guys who can make him look better?   Collins is supposed to be the pick and roll master.  Dennis is a pick and roll guard.  Yet, the PG he plays the most with is Delaney, a guy who barely drives the paint, can't finish once he gets there, and doesn't find people with passes when he does get in the paint.

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Thomas]

With Ersan out up to three weeks I would back up Dedmon with Moose (since it really doesn't matter where you put Moose anyway) and then Collins has as many minutes as needed or wanted at PF. Babbit won't play over half of them Heaven forbid. Rather limit the overall minutes of Moose and not limit Collins minutes so much is the bottom line for me. Ersan's injury could help reveal how fast Collins can actually progress and guess where, at PF. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Thomas said:

With Ersan out up to three weeks I would back up Dedmon with Moose (since it really doesn't matter where you put Moose anyway) and then Collins has as many minutes as needed or wanted at PF. Babbit won't play over half of them Heaven forbid. Rather limit the overall minutes of Moose and not limit Collins minutes so much is the bottom line for me. Ersan's injury could help reveal how fast Collins can actually progress and guess where, at PF. 

I agree.  And even if you still wanted to play Collins some at center, this could be done by having Moose sub in for Collins first, and then have Collins sub out Dedmon.

We can have Dedmon - Collins start .  . with Ilyasova ( when healthy ) and Moose as the reserves.  I would also boost Collins minutes to around 26 - 28 per game.

 

PF - Collins ( 14 ) - Ilyasova ( 24 ) - Moose ( 10 )

C - Dedmon ( 28 ) - Collins ( 14 ) - Moose ( 8 )

 

Bottom line is that I don't want 85% of Collins' minutes to be with that 2nd unit with just 1 other starter in the lineup ( which is normally Baze or Prince ).  If we could get a 50/50 mix, where he's playing with at least 3 starters, that would be ideal right now.  No way should Delaney be playing more minutes alongside Collins, than Dennis.

Edited November 1, 2017 by TheNorthCydeRises

[MaceCase]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If you play Collins and Dedmon together, you may as well play Dedmon as the "stretch guy" on the outside, seeing that almost 40% of his shots are coming from 16+ feet right now anyway.  Collins is much more active offensively around the rim.  The question is if that lineup could work defensively?  Personally, I don't see how worse it could be than the lineups we're currently throwing out there right now.

As far as maximizing Collins' potential, part of that is to play him alongside people who can make him better.  If Bud is steadfast in playing him at center for most of his minutes, why not play him more minutes with the guys who can make him look better?   Collins is supposed to be the pick and roll master.  Dennis is a pick and roll guard.  Yet, the PG he plays the most with is Delaney, a guy who barely drives the paint, can't finish once he gets there, and doesn't find people with passes when he does get in the paint.

 

Well, in the one game they played together Collins' stints were almost completely handcuffed to Bembry's.  They did well together, no?  We've also seen Delaney recently give way to little known Isaiah Taylor and that went well, correct? It's not on Bud that the guy we were hoping on to be the de facto playmaker on the 2nd unit went down to injury so early.  I also don't see the point in Bud scrapping his lineups completely less than 10 games into a season when Dennis needs developing too you know.  It's not crazy that he'd be surrounded by guys that already know their roles and the nuance on the court even if they are not performing at their best than focusing his attention solely on individual development.  There's a disconnect, Bud is going with the best strategy he believes to compete over these 7 games but the claim is he's tanking whereas the solutions of just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks are more akin to just tanking.

[Peoriabird]

9 hours ago, MaceCase said:

 Bud is going with the best strategy he believes to compete over these 7 games but the claim is he's tanking whereas the solutions of just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks are more akin to just tanking.

What's that saying??? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different result is the definition of what?  His strategy isn't working... Time to change!

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

What's that saying??? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different result is the definition of what?  His strategy isn't working... Time to change!

Is the argument that a change in strategy, or for you, coach going to shift those results towards the positive?

[Peoriabird]

4 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Is the argument that a change in strategy, or for you, coach going to shift those results towards the positive?

You won't know until you change....All I know is that the current strategy isn't working.

[Cwell]

I just love reading all the ridiculous excuses and explanations for bad coaching. Bud gets more exposed every season

 

”Yeah, you wont play because you struggle with defense, even though you’re young and have to tools to be better. So we’re gonna have you sit and watch old bum vets that wouldn’t play on any other team, that suck at defense, have always sucked at defense, and always will suck at defense because they’re athletically incapable. They aren’t better than you in any shape or form, but they got here before you so uhhhh......yeahs that’s that” 

[MaceCase]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

You won't know until you change....All I know is that the current strategy isn't working.

And you assume that change is always for the better.  Yea, I suppose there could be a strategy that will transform this squad into a contender and Collins into a superstar over his first 8 games.  You’ve convinced me, Bud isn’t the one to steer this team to its full potential, time to look elsewhere.

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, Cwell said:

I just love reading all the ridiculous excuses and explanations for bad coaching. Bud gets more exposed every season

 

”Yeah, you wont play because you struggle with defense, even though you’re young and have to tools to be better. So we’re gonna have you sit and watch old bum vets that wouldn’t play on any other team, that suck at defense, have always sucked at defense, and always will suck at defense because they’re athletically incapable. They aren’t better than you in any shape or form, but they got here before you so uhhhh......yeahs that’s that” 

When you foul anything that moves, it’s hard to get playing time.   Fouling out in 13 minutes is not conducive to getting playing time. For the moment at least, Collins is a hacker. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Watchman

[Packfill]

On 10/31/2017 at 10:40 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So if the positions are interchangeable, why isn't Collins starting at the 4 with Dedmon?  Or a better question, why doesn't Collins play at all alongside Dedmon even a little bit?

Bud is in love with his "stretch 4s". Guys who can't even hit the broad side of a barn right now.  I get it.  We're tanking.  But that's no excuse to not maximize Collins' potential.  If Bud is going to continue with the Dedmon/Collins rotation at the 5, I want Collins to be the starter.

Can't do that though.  Because God forbid he develops some sort of chemistry with Dennis and Taurean.

It is not just Bud.  Clearly most NBA teams are moving to having 4 shooters on the floor.  For that reason, Dedmon and Collins are not a good fit together.  Collins hopefully pulls a Aaron Gordon and becomes a shooting tour-de-force in the years ahead.

[Peoriabird]

3 hours ago, MaceCase said:

And you assume that change is always for the better.  Yea, I suppose there could be a strategy that will transform this squad into a contender and Collins into a superstar over his first 8 games.  You’ve convinced me, Bud isn’t the one to steer this team to its full potential, time to look elsewhere.

That was a bit extreme.  Better doesn't always mean going from 1-7 to undefeated and championship.  I just feel if players had different roles, the team would function better. 

Here are just a few example,

Collin should not be called on to guard Howard or Okafor 

Delaney should not play the 2 or the 1 for that matter unless injuries dictate

Belinelli should not be asked to play the 3

There should be 2 rebounders in the game at all times

Prince should not be asked to go one on one off the dribble

Bazemore should not be the primary facilitator

We should never see the Collin/Babbitt/Belinelli/Delaney/Taylor line up ever again

We should stop asking Moose to cut to the lane for a lay up or dunk

 

 

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

That was a bit extreme.  Better doesn't always mean going from 1-7 to undefeated and championship.  I just feel if players had different roles, the team would function better. 

Here are just a few example,

Collin should not be called on to guard Howard or Okafor Because he should never have to be switched on or face a player bigger than him for his whole career.

Delaney should not play the 2 or the 1 for that matter unless injuries dictate Because the Hawks guard rotation is fully healthy.

Belinelli should not be asked to play the 3 Because 6'5" isn't tall enough, Luke Babbitt should be the only one there behind Prince.

There should be 2 rebounders in the game at all times Because the offense is so anemic already there should be even less space for Dennis to operate.

Prince should not be asked to go one on one off the dribble Because there's no reason why a 2nd year player should expand his game outside of stand in the corner.

Bazemore should not be the primary facilitator Because the team can use Bembry, wait, just let Dennis be the only primary facilitator along with 2 rebounders, teams won't be able to key in on him as much.

We should never see the Collin/Babbitt/Belinelli/Delaney/Taylor line up ever again Because the team is so deep with better players and starters that have supreme conditioning.

We should stop asking Moose to cut to the lane for a lay up or dunk Because he's much more of a threat to defenses just floating on the perimeter alone but shouldn't see the court anyway because there has to be 2 rebounders.

 

 

Like I said, I'm convinced already.  Perhaps you should get your name out there for the soon to be coaching vacancy.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

Like I said, I'm convinced already.  Perhaps you should get your name out there for the soon to be coaching vacancy.

What would it take for you to say enough is enough? 1-14? 1-21? Are you as stubborn as Bud?  If so enjoy.

[Watchman]

56 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

What would it take for you to say enough is enough? 1-14? 1-21? Are you as stubborn as Bud?  If so enjoy.

Why?  Slinky wants to lose. Bud is  accommodating his wishes. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Watchman