Can you call out the Hawks errors???

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

I understood completely why they won, they played well above their heads as well oiled parts of a Ferrari engine.  Lose one part, let another rust, and yet another pick up grime and you have a $400,000 paperweight.  The Hawks failed to capitalize on the players' value, the players OTOH did not make such a mistake and they and their families are all too grateful for it.  

That's the thing.. you say well over their heads... NO.. they fit well in the system.   Have you ever watched San Antonio??  Does everybody on San Antonio's team play well over their heads???  NO.. they fit well in the system.  I agree with you that the Hawks failed to capitalize on the players value but not as a trading chip.. as a chip to tell the player why staying is better for your career than taking quick money.   DMC is the perfect example.  He got paid to go to Toronto.  A place where he didn't fit.  Now , for the rest of his career, people will actually think that he didn't have ability and was just "playing over his head".   Sure the Hawks can go out and find another Danny Green or Patty Mills.. but it's no denying that they found all the right pieces that worked and didn't do enough to keep them. 

[JTB]

A few reasons why I don’t get this thread:

-Horford was ultimately offered more money to stay in Atlanta however he chose to still leave to Boston despite that...therefore this wasn’t a mistake, horford was going to leave no matter what the way I see it

-Hawks couldn’t resign DMC after the 60 win season because we had to make a choice between him and Sap due to ONLY having partial and not full bird rights on him. From my understanding even if the hawks had available cap that year they still couldn’t have given DMC more money due to the bird rights rule that were in affect under that cba ....it sucks but that’s why we need to stay away from 2 year contracts on potentially good players . Only person to blame here is ferry and then honestly that’s not truly fair cause coming in to that off season when the hawks got DMC and sap no one knew how good of team they were going to be. Ferry was trying to stay flexible truly but ended in a situation he wasn’t ready for after the 60 win season.

-we didn’t take CP3 ...well that’s because....that’s because....uhhh...ok no excuses on that one lol but in all seriousness billy Knight did have a vision of having this long athletic team which isn’t really a bad idea but unfortunately it back fired.

-why did we sign Howard and why we got rid of him. We signed Howard cause bud was tired of seeing horford get his ass spanked on the boards. With horford if we didn’t shoot high percentages we weren’t going to win. There was no second chance points or hope that we could pull out an ugly game cause that would require horford to get down and dirty and that’s not his style. Which is fine so bud say let’s go get Howard to off set the few things horford isn’t good at. But that blew up when horford didn’t want to resign...had he resign I believe horford, Howard, sap would all still be here ....now why did we get rid of Howard. Well I hate to admit it but we weren’t going anywhere with Howard or Millsap unless one of these younger guys on the perimeter really got it together quick and emerged as star. If that don’t happen we’re a middle of the road team again no doubt.

 

 

 

so here’s how I see this thread about calling out the hawks errors ....you just can’t state an error without going into detail why cause that makes it look like there was no effort to approve and that’s not what realistically happened.

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

That's the thing.. you say well over their heads... NO.. they fit well in the system.   Have you ever watched San Antonio??  Does everybody on San Antonio's team play well over their heads???  NO.. they fit well in the system.  I agree with you that the Hawks failed to capitalize on the players value but not as a trading chip.. as a chip to tell the player why staying is better for your career than taking quick money.   DMC is the perfect example.  He got paid to go to Toronto.  A place where he didn't fit.  Now , for the rest of his career, people will actually think that he didn't have ability and was just "playing over his head".   Sure the Hawks can go out and find another Danny Green or Patty Mills.. but it's no denying that they found all the right pieces that worked and didn't do enough to keep them. 

That's the problem, the Hawks built a team of Danny Greens and Patty Mills caliber players whereas San Antonio has perennial All Stars like Gasol and Aldridge then 20ppg scorers like Rudy Gay signing there to go along with their All League homegrown talent playing in their system.  So no, those guys don't need to "play over their heads" when they can just play like the All Stars that they already are. 

Then It's also a lot easier for guys who individually have over $100 mil in career earnings banked to take a pay cut than guys who collectively as a group would struggle to put together $50 mil.  In the case of DeMarre, with less than $6 mil in career earnings, at age 28, with a liver condition and an injured knee... he's supposed to turn down almost $60 mil guaranteed for some 1 year deal at less than $4 mil?  And his knee gives out again and/or he's unable to repeat his role as a cog in the well oiled machine Bud was running, are the Hawks supposed to make good on their promise to compensate him?  Sounds highly unlikely on both parts.

All of those players' profiles peaked as a result of their talents coalescing into an outlier of a win streak.  They all rode that streak to lucrative new deals for themselves without ever repeating that same team success while the Hawks were left holding the bag kicking themselves at yet another missed opportunity.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, MaceCase said:

That's the problem, the Hawks built a team of Danny Greens and Patty Mills caliber players whereas San Antonio has perennial All Stars like Gasol and Aldridge then 20ppg scorers like Rudy Gay signing there to go along with their All League homegrown talent playing in their system.  So no, those guys don't need to "play over their heads" when they can just play like the All Stars that they already are. 

Then It's also a lot easier for guys who individually have over $100 mil in career earnings banked to take a pay cut than guys who collectively as a group would struggle to put together $50 mil.  In the case of DeMarre, with less than $6 mil in career earnings, at age 28, with a liver condition and an injured knee... he's supposed to turn down almost $60 mil guaranteed for some 1 year deal at less than $4 mil?  And his knee gives out again and/or he's unable to repeat his role as a cog in the well oiled machine Bud was running, are the Hawks supposed to make good on their promise to compensate him?  Sounds highly unlikely on both parts.

All of those players' profiles peaked as a result of their talents coalescing into an outlier of a win streak.  They all rode that streak to lucrative new deals for themselves without ever repeating that same team success while the Hawks were left holding the bag kicking themselves at yet another missed opportunity.

But we had allstars... and did nothing to capitalize off of them.

What did we get for Smoove?

What did we get for Teague?

What did we get for Al?

What did we get for Horf?

What did we get for DMC?

We bought in to this BS addition by subtraction... show me where San Antonio ever felt that way about an allstar or fringe player?

 

That's the difference between a winning culture and a losing one. 

[nathan2331]

Biggest mistake for me was signing Carroll and Millsap to 2-year contracts instead of longer deals. Not having their bird rights basically killed the 60-win team, and prevented us from making another deal to significantly better the team.

 

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[MaceCase]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

But we had allstars... and did nothing to capitalize off of them.

What did we get for Smoove?

What did we get for Teague?

What did we get for Al?

What did we get for Horf?

What did we get for DMC?

We bought in to this BS addition by subtraction... show me where San Antonio ever felt that way about an allstar or fringe player?

 

That's the difference between a winning culture and a losing one. 

That

 

Is

 

My

 

Point

 

!

 

The Hawks held onto guys only to watch them leave instead of trading them when their value was at its highest.  That was the Hawks errors that I called out but you decided as always just to argue and prove my original point while doing so.

[Diesel]

12 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

That

 

Is

 

My

 

Point

 

!

 

The Hawks held onto guys only to watch them leave instead of trading them when their value was at its highest.  That was the Hawks errors that I called out but you decided as always just to argue and prove my original point while doing so.

Uhm.. This was your point:

Quote

That's the problem, the Hawks built a team of Danny Greens and Patty Mills caliber players whereas San Antonio has perennial All Stars like Gasol and Aldridge then 20ppg scorers like Rudy Gay signing there to go along with their All League homegrown talent playing in their system.  So no, those guys don't need to "play over their heads" when they can just play like the All Stars that they already are. 

So now you are in agreement with me that the Hawks didn't have a team of Danny Green's and Patty Mills but they had allstars too.. they just never capitalized off of them when they left.

We undersold guy after guy and the fanbase would say dumb stuff like... It was addition by subtraction... or we got caproom.   I have been saying this for years now..  Caproom doesn't suit up and play and it's meaningless if you can't go out and get free agents that can play,.

So now... we have a newcomer GM who says... let's just firesale it all and start over... That's a general who has no idea about the terrain he's on.

[thecampster]

Please try to keep in mind here that I was and probably am the biggest Josh Smith fan on this board.  I would argue the #1 mistake they made was Not trading Josh Smith after the 2011-2012 season.  After 2012 and before his last season in Atlanta, Josh Smith was highly regarded around the league as a play maker. They dangled him at the trade deadline and received significant offers (see this article  ).  In keeping Smith and letting him walk, they lost a valuable trade chip and the opportunity to "Sell High" on a declining talent, a rarity for this organization.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Please try to keep in mind here that I was and probably am the biggest Josh Smith fan on this board.  I would argue the #1 mistake they made was Not trading Josh Smith after the 2011-2012 season.  After 2012 and before his last season in Atlanta, Josh Smith was highly regarded around the league as a play maker. They dangled him at the trade deadline and received significant offers (see this article  ).  In keeping Smith and letting him walk, they lost a valuable trade chip and the opportunity to "Sell High" on a declining talent, a rarity for this organization.

It's a mistake that they didn't learn from.  We did the same thing with Millsap.. and he had an unquestionable character and great value. 

[MaceCase]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

Uhm.. This was your point:

So now you are in agreement with me that the Hawks didn't have a team of Danny Green's and Patty Mills but they had allstars too.. they just never capitalized off of them when they left.

 

Here we go with obtuse Diesel again, playing dumb just so you won't admit embarrassment.

Smoove was never an All Star, the Hawks let go of him to pave the way to afford DeMarre and Sap.  Sap and Korver had never made an All Star game before becoming a Hawk, Horford and Teague haven't made a selection outside of the Hawks either yet.  That is a stark difference from the Spurs signing Gasol and Aldridge literally less than 6 months after they made their last consecutive All Star game.

Teague, Korver, Horford, DeMarre, Sap, even Bazemore all took that win streak, those 60 wins, that ECF appearance, that player of the month award, their first All Star selections and ran with it to the most lucrative contracts of their entire careers.  The Hawks took these Danny Greens and Patty Mills and built them and those players in return cashed in while their value was highest leaving the Hawks looking dumb for thinking the band would stay together for pennies on the dollar instead of capitalizing on that value by trading them.

It's

That

Simple

You don't somehow manage to build a decent house out of substandard materials then decide to live in it, you flip that m'fer while its value is hot and use that capital to build an actual house out of good longstanding materials.  That's why Schlenk had to come in and bulldoze the whole plot whereas the previous regime thought they could get by by just patching holes in a quickly dilapidating house. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

Biggest mistake for me was signing Carroll and Millsap to 2-year contracts instead of longer deals. Not having their bird rights basically killed the 60-win team, and prevented us from making another deal to significantly better the team.

 

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f-l-e-x-i-b-i-l-i-t-y

It made us flexible all right.  It flexed all of those dudes outta here.

[Sothron]

No one knew DMC would be as good as he was and Millsap basically signed a show me deal to prove he could be worth a bigger deal. Millsap has been one of the smartest players I have ever seen in how he's signed short deals to maximize his earnings, banking on himself to keep getting larger contracts. Blaming Ferry for only signing them for those contracts is grossly unfair.

[nathan2331]

 

 

No one knew DMC would be as good as he was and Millsap basically signed a show me deal to prove he could be worth a bigger deal. Millsap has been one of the smartest players I have ever seen in how he's signed short deals to maximize his earnings, banking on himself to keep getting larger contracts. Blaming Ferry for only signing them for those contracts is grossly unfair.

 

Hindsight might be 20/20, but that's what did us in. I'm not saying Ferry sucks because of it, but that to me was the biggest mistake he made while he was in Atlanta. Besides maybe doing everything in his power to secure Giannis, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

 

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[Sothron]

18 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

Hindsight might be 20/20, but that's what did us in. I'm not saying Ferry sucks because of it, but that to me was the biggest mistake he made while he was in Atlanta. Besides maybe doing everything in his power to secure Giannis, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

 

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How is it a mistake? You have to show at the time Ferry signed those deals that both guys would turn out like they did. Milllsap wouldn't sign any other deal here, he got exactly what he wanted on that deal so he could keep signing short contracts for max dollars each time. Millsap is a genius. That is not a mistake on Ferry's fault.

[nathan2331]

How is it a mistake? You have to show at the time Ferry signed those deals that both guys would turn out like they did. Milllsap wouldn't sign any other deal here, he got exactly what he wanted on that deal so he could keep signing short contracts for max dollars each time. Millsap is a genius. That is not a mistake on Ferry's fault.

It's a mistake like giving Bazemore his extension was a mistake. I understand why it happened, but things didn't work out as planned. Millsap as you've said has navigated very well as a free agent, but I would have given him more money per year to get him for 3 years. I think he would have accepted something around 3yrs 36 mil had we offered it in 2013.

 

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[JTB]

25 minutes ago, Sothron said:

How is it a mistake? You have to show at the time Ferry signed those deals that both guys would turn out like they did. Milllsap wouldn't sign any other deal here, he got exactly what he wanted on that deal so he could keep signing short contracts for max dollars each time. Millsap is a genius. That is not a mistake on Ferry's fault.

Exactly....the fact that now we have post going back and trying to place blame on past decisions is stupid.

had ferry signed Millsap and DMC to lucrative contracts the year we got them EVERYONE would have said “same ol mediocre hawks making mediocre dumbass decisions “

but instead everything doesn’t just go well it goes extremely and NO it absolutely wasn’t expected by anyone in the league therefore we can’t really blame ferry. Those guys hadn’t even truly proved at the time we got them  that they were worth more money than what ferry signed them for so we can’t blame ferry on the 2 year deals....all we can say now is that it’s probably best to stay away from two year deals going forward to avoid this situation from happening again, SIMPLE AS THAT.

[JTB]

9 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

It's a mistake like giving Bazemore his extension was a mistake. I understand why it happened, but things didn't work out as planned. Millsap as you've said has navigated very well as a free agent, but I would have given him more money per year to get him for 3 years. I think he would have accepted something around 3yrs 36 mil had we offered it in 2013.

 

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Respectfully I believe bud and staff just got tired of teams stealing our guys after they have break out or semi break out seasons.

Eventually you get fed up and want to keep the guy you been busting your ass to help train up.

also I don’t believe the intentions were ever to have this much responsibility for bazemore. He’s doing way more than what was originally being asked. With that said I honestly believe just in my own opinion that bazemore is still a good player and good talent to have...JUST NOT IN THE WAY WE ARE USING HIM.

if all baze had to do was play with high energy defensively, cut to basket, spot up for 3s....he wouldn’t be hated so much on these boards...but we ask Baze to do all of that plus more! Baze be a scorer & playmaker, set your team up, penetrate the lane,...anything that has to do with a higher ball usage for Baze is a bad idea and will really expose him like what’s happening . He’s suppose to be a 3&D shooting guard THATS IT no more no little.

Edited November 22, 2017 by JTB

[nathan2331]

 

Respectfully I believe bud and staff just got tired of teams stealing our guys after they have break out or semi break out seasons.

 

Eventually you get fed up and want to keep the guy you been busting your ass to help train up.

 

also I don’t believe the intentions were ever to have this much responsibility for bazemore. He’s doing way more than what was originally being asked. With that said I honestly believe just in my own opinion that bazemore is still a good player and good talent to have...JUST NOT IN THE WAY WE ARE USING HIM.

 

if all baze had to do was play with high energy defensively, cut to basket, spot up for 3s....he wouldn’t be hated so much on these boards...but we ask Baze to do all of that plus more! Baze be a scorer & playmaker, set your team up, penetrate the lane,...anything that has to do with a higher ball usage for Baze is a bad idea and will really expose him like what’s happening . He’s suppose to be a 3&D shooting guard THATS IT no more no little.

 

 

I agree 100%. We give him too many responsibilities on offense, and his play sometimes suffers because of that. But as someone who supported his resigning, I'm still happy he's on the team, even if the dollar amount is high. I know this sounds hyperbolic, but I don't think we're far from the 60-win team. Coach Bud I still think is the best coach in the league, but is currently having to use a roster with some bottom barrel talent. I can't predict the future, but with the right draft pick and FAcy moves, we could become a contender very quickly.

 

 

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[Diesel]

8 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Here we go with obtuse Diesel again, playing dumb just so you won't admit embarrassment.

Smoove was never an All Star, the Hawks let go of him to pave the way to afford DeMarre and Sap.  Sap and Korver had never made an All Star game before becoming a Hawk, Horford and Teague haven't made a selection outside of the Hawks either yet.  That is a stark difference from the Spurs signing Gasol and Aldridge literally less than 6 months after they made their last consecutive All Star game.

Teague, Korver, Horford, DeMarre, Sap, even Bazemore all took that win streak, those 60 wins, that ECF appearance, that player of the month award, their first All Star selections and ran with it to the most lucrative contracts of their entire careers.  The Hawks took these Danny Greens and Patty Mills and built them and those players in return cashed in while their value was highest leaving the Hawks looking dumb for thinking the band would stay together for pennies on the dollar instead of capitalizing on that value by trading them.

It's

That

Simple

You don't somehow manage to build a decent house out of substandard materials then decide to live in it, you flip that m'fer while its value is hot and use that capital to build an actual house out of good longstanding materials.  That's why Schlenk had to come in and bulldoze the whole plot whereas the previous regime thought they could get by by just patching holes in a quickly dilapidating house. 

Subject change Macecase to save face...

Speaking of Just playing Dumb...  I quote you your own words and you ignore it and come back with insults... You're only fooling a few flunkies here Mace...

1. Go back to my original statement.  I said Allstar and Fringe players.  That includes Josh Smith.  Moreover, boy isn't hindsight 20/20...
2. This is not a comparison of the Spurs getting Allstar vs. Us having Allstars.  (subject change again).. This is about what did we do with our allstar talent??  
3.  The Hawks took players who were better than Danny Greens and showed their allstar ability.  If Sap didn't get hurt, you don't think he would have been an allstar?  Wasn't Al?  Sure, Korver and Teague will not because Korver is a system guy and Teague plays with too many stars in a full West.     However, these guys had more talent than Mills and Green.  That's an insult.
4. Substandard?  = Allstar?

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

How is it a mistake? You have to show at the time Ferry signed those deals that both guys would turn out like they did. Milllsap wouldn't sign any other deal here, he got exactly what he wanted on that deal so he could keep signing short contracts for max dollars each time. Millsap is a genius. That is not a mistake on Ferry's fault.

Team Options are great things...