Crunch time benching of Dennis Schröder

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

Pop benched his entire starting lineup in the playoffs last season because he thought they weren't engaged enough.  This is not some revolutionary new thing.  

On Beverly, that is a red herring.  Dennis doesn't have to choose offense or defense.  We need his offense but he can and should do more on D.  That doesn't mean harassing the other PG 90 feet down the court.  It means above all just moving normally so you are in the right position when your man doesn't have the ball.  That alone will step his D up another level and it doesn't have to be so taxing as to neuter him on offense.

It is a false dilemma to pretend it is one or the other.

But even Pop only left those guys out for 3 minutes, as the lead expanded to double digits.   That lost the game for them too, and his players questioned the move afterwards.  They basically thought he overreacted.   Sometimes even the "smart coaches" can outsmart themselves.

As for the Dennis / Beverly example, I purposely brought up the opposite extreme to Dennis, because if Beverly were the Hawks PG, the opposite would be true.  He'd be great defensively, but fans would be asking him to improve his offense to be more well rounded.  But if he wasn't comfortable, or fully capable of doing it, we'd might just have to settle for what he is . . . a defensive PG.

Same goes with Dennis.  People talk about his "defensive potential", but he's never really shown that he can be more than an average defender.  People forget that the guy is only 6 - 1, and is much smaller than most PGs in the league.  Even Isaiah Taylor is 6 - 3.  But it's safe to say that Dennis' offense is much better than what people thought he'd be.

At best, maybe Dennis becomes a guy who can play the passing lanes well and get steals, ala Allen Iverson. 

[Thomas]

19 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

At best, maybe Dennis becomes a guy who can play the passing lanes well and get steals, ala Allen Iverson. 

At the moment I'm not really expecting much more than that, maybe fight through a screen or two until he tires of the bruises. Bud may decide that Dennis doesn't average the most minutes on the floor for us moving forward with Taylor healthy but still gotta figure he'll close games out, being the engine and all and then bet he'll still be pushing thirty or pretty close to that minutes.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Bud nor our players have it in them to purposely lose games.  The GM sets the roster to tank; the coaches and players still compete to win games... If Dennis was benched, it was because Coach felt he deserved it, not because he's looking to lose games.  Dennis isn't the type of player that's going to win games on his own anyway...

[StephenHawking]

vor 42 Minuten, TheNorthCydeRises sagte:

But even Pop only left those guys out for 3 minutes, as the lead expanded to double digits.   That lost the game for them too, and his players questioned the move afterwards.  They basically thought he overreacted.   Sometimes even the "smart coaches" can outsmart themselves.

As for the Dennis / Beverly example, I purposely brought up the opposite extreme to Dennis, because if Beverly were the Hawks PG, the opposite would be true.  He'd be great defensively, but fans would be asking him to improve his offense to be more well rounded.  But if he wasn't comfortable, or fully capable of doing it, we'd might just have to settle for what he is . . . a defensive PG.

Same goes with Dennis.  People talk about his "defensive potential", but he's never really shown that he can be more than an average defender.  People forget that the guy is only 6 - 1, and is much smaller than most PGs in the league.  Even Isaiah Taylor is 6 - 3.  But it's safe to say that Dennis' offense is much better than what people thought he'd be.

At best, maybe Dennis becomes a guy who can play the passing lanes well and get steals, ala Allen Iverson. 

I actually saw him displaying his poise on defense when he still was a back-up pg. He was first and foremost known as a pesky defender back then.

Edited December 12, 2017 by StephenHawking

[AHF]

45 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But even Pop only left those guys out for 3 minutes, as the lead expanded to double digits.   That lost the game for them too, and his players questioned the move afterwards.  They basically thought he overreacted.   Sometimes even the "smart coaches" can outsmart themselves.

As for the Dennis / Beverly example, I purposely brought up the opposite extreme to Dennis, because if Beverly were the Hawks PG, the opposite would be true.  He'd be great defensively, but fans would be asking him to improve his offense to be more well rounded.  But if he wasn't comfortable, or fully capable of doing it, we'd might just have to settle for what he is . . . a defensive PG.

Same goes with Dennis.  People talk about his "defensive potential", but he's never really shown that he can be more than an average defender.  People forget that the guy is only 6 - 1, and is much smaller than most PGs in the league.  Even Isaiah Taylor is 6 - 3.  But it's safe to say that Dennis' offense is much better than what people thought he'd be.

At best, maybe Dennis becomes a guy who can play the passing lanes well and get steals, ala Allen Iverson. 

I fundamentally disagree.  I've rarely seen Dennis getting physically overpowered.  The issue is typically that he isn't in the right position.  If he tracks his man better off the ball it will be a huge improvement in his D.  So unlike Beverly who doesn't have the tools to be solid on offense, I think Dennis has the tools to be much improved on D.  I think he can be a much more balanced player unlike Tony Allen or Beverly who are never going to consistently be productive on offense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

Bud nor our players have it in them to purposely lose games.  The GM sets the roster to tank; the coaches and players still compete to win games... If Dennis was benched, it was because Coach felt he deserved it, not because he's looking to lose games.  Dennis isn't the type of player that's going to win games on his own anyway...

Did Bud's decision to bench Dennis at that time, give us the best chance to win the game?  

Say what you want about his defense, but he offensively had it going.  7 in the 4th quarter, in just 3 minutes, and 13 points in the 2nd half. When he went out in the 3rd quarter, after picking up his 4th foul, the Hawks were up 4.  By the time he got back in the game, the Hawks were DOWN 5.

That's a 9 point swing with Dennis out of the game. 

 http://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20171210&game=ATLNYK

He comes back in the game, and immediately asserts himself offensively, making 3 out of 4 layups, including an And-1, to bring us within 2 points.   Knicks score the next 5, including a 3 by Frank Ntilikina ( with Dennis sagging off of him ), to push the lead to 7.  Bud pulls Dennis on the next possession, when Baze got fouled and made 2 FTs.

Hawks are only down 5 at this point.  But I guess Bud had had enough.  Dennis doesn't see the floor the rest of the game.

This was an ego thing by Bud . . . or a deliberate tank job . . . to keep Dennis out of the game.

[AHF]

Or trying to set the right expectation for Dennis.  Or a combination of the above.

I do agree that is wasn't about maximizing our chances of winning this particular game but also doubt it was an "ego" move by Bud who has his faults but of which overblown ego doesn't seem to rate high.

[DBac]

Beverley is just a 3nD PG. If he had to be your primary creator then you're in trouble. You play guys like him next to unorthodox ball handlers like Harden, Giannis, Lebron, Simmons, etc.

 

His role would be more similar to Bazemore on our team.

[benhillboy]

How would y’all feel if Dennis was put on the block?  Do you think he could stay professional about it?

[Watchman]

9 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

How would y’all feel if Dennis was put on the block?  Do you think he could stay professional about it?

Not likely.

[Sothron]

It never ceases to amaze me the hate that our best PG since Mookie was here gets on this forum. Dennis is good, he's not great, he's not going to be an All NBA defensive player. Realistic expectations anyone?

[Peoriabird]

34 minutes ago, Sothron said:

It never ceases to amaze me the hate that our best PG since Mookie was here gets on this forum. Dennis is good, he's not great, he's not going to be an All NBA defensive player. Realistic expectations anyone?

Its just typical Hawk Fandom...The best players get run out of town and flourish elsewhere i.e. Horford and Teague but the beloved ones go elsewhere and are Meh i.e. Korver, DMC, Howard and Milsap.

[KB21]

39 minutes ago, Sothron said:

It never ceases to amaze me the hate that our best PG since Mookie was here gets on this forum. Dennis is good, he's not great, he's not going to be an All NBA defensive player. Realistic expectations anyone?

The fans who continue to think volume stats are indicative of how valuable you are continue to amaze me.  You might as well put empty stats next to Dennis's name.  

[MaceCase]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Same goes with Dennis.  People talk about his "defensive potential", but he's never really shown that he can be more than an average defender.  People forget that the guy is only 6 - 1, and is much smaller than most PGs in the league.  Even Isaiah Taylor is 6 - 3.  But it's safe to say that Dennis' offense is much better than what people thought he'd be.

At best, maybe Dennis becomes a guy who can play the passing lanes well and get steals, ala Allen Iverson. 

I've said the same about him even when he was a backup.  The defensive pressure that he used to exert was always Bazeian, a lot of activity with little effect.  Poised ball handlers always knew that they could dislodge Dennis and leave him trailing the play if they could get any part of their body on him, the same truth remains till this day.  Dennis was billed as some Rondo clone but even Rondo was overrated on defense outside of having an all time great mobile defender behind him, playing passing lanes/digging in on driving players and hitting the boards.  Dennis has however proven to be a consistent offensive threat that Rondo never was and should be applauded for that.  Can he improve his awareness and even effort alone on the defensive end?  Absolutely, but that won't necessarily translate to him becoming a plus defender.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

27 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Its just typical Hawk Fandom...The best players get run out of town and flourish elsewhere i.e. Horford and Teague but the beloved ones go elsewhere and are Meh i.e. Korver, DMC, Howard and Milsap.

Joe Johnson too.  It's sad that he's going to be remembered more for his play as a Brooklyn Net, than he will for his play as an Atlanta Hawk.

[KB21]

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2017/11/29/16712624/dennis-Schröder-report-volume-three-atlanta-hawks-point-guardT

The Dennis Schröder Report, part 3. 

[benhillboy]

4 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

I've said the same about him even when he was a backup.  The defensive pressure that he used to exert was always Bazeian, a lot of activity with little effect.  Poised ball handlers always knew that they could dislodge Dennis and leave him trailing the play if they could get any part of their body on him, the same truth remains till this day.  Dennis was billed as some Rondo clone but even Rondo was overrated on defense outside of having an all time great mobile defender behind him, playing passing lanes/digging in on driving players and hitting the boards.  Dennis has however proven to be a consistent offensive threat that Rondo never was and should be applauded for that.  Can he improve his awareness and even effort alone on the defensive end?  Absolutely, but that won't necessarily translate to him becoming a plus defender.

I would respectfully dispute.  I could be more persuasive if I had data showing how many 24 second clock violations the Hawks forced between ‘14 and ‘16 but I do know it was a lot.  Like you said some PGs like Lowry or Irving would have little issue  crossing half court (maybe even draw a foul) but second-tier and below guards like a George Hill or Aaron Brooks would have fits bringing it up.  They feared his length and quickness.  Thabo and Al would usually cement the violation but Dennis usually sparked it.  Jeff doesn’t make AS without Bud’s affinity for backup PG defensive pressure eating at his minutes, same as Taylor now.

[Wurider05]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

It never ceases to amaze me the hate that our best PG since Mookie was here gets on this forum. Dennis is good, he's not great, he's not going to be an All NBA defensive player. Realistic expectations anyone?

That is what they do on here. They cannibalize the players. Does Dennis need to improve yes he does but some of you act like we are marching  some g league level player out there. Some of you talk about defense but name a super star/all star pg that plays lock down defense. You guys act as if he shouldn't even be in the league.  He gets more flack than Bazemore from you guys. i just don't get it. Then some of you make these list of players that we have no chance of getting on this team. If Dennis sucks so bad who would want him in a trade? You guys need to wake up and smell the damn coffee.

[MaceCase]

28 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

I would respectfully dispute.  I could be more persuasive if I had data showing how many 24 second clock violations the Hawks forced between ‘14 and ‘16 but I do know it was a lot.  Like you said some PGs like Lowry or Irving would have little issue  crossing half court (maybe even draw a foul) but second-tier and below guards like a George Hill or Aaron Brooks would have fits bringing it up.  They feared his length and quickness.  Thabo and Al would usually cement the violation but Dennis usually sparked it.  Jeff doesn’t make AS without Bud’s affinity for backup PG defensive pressure eating at his minutes, same as Taylor now.

Well data would suggest that Dennis was ranked nearly dead last amongst PGs in Defensive RPM over that same span (49th out of 49 in 2013-14, 53rd out of 57 in 2014-15).  He improved dramatically in 15-16 (19th out of 62) which was possibly part of what prompted the Teague trade, but then fell dramatically back to the doldrums of the bottom of the league his first year as a starter (74th out of 79) and remains there till today (91st out of 92).  That would suggest a consistently bad defender.

It doesn't take star guys to beat him off the dribble either, any player bigger than him (and there are a lot) know not to dribble the ball in front of him, they negate his length by backing him down the court or my favorite: fake dribble in one direction towards the sideline, draw contact, spin move in opposite direction leaving a whole quadrant of the court open as Dennis recovers.  In the halfcourt, how often have you seen a guy create contact with Dennis and ride him to the paint with Dennis' only recourse is to backpedal with his arms high in the air?

[AHF]

46 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Joe Johnson too.  It's sad that he's going to be remembered more for his play as a Brooklyn Net, than he will for his play as an Atlanta Hawk.

I don't think you need to fear that.  Joe won't be remembered for anything he has done since leaving Atlanta.