AmicoHoops: Travis wants a franchise player

[KB21]

24 minutes ago, hazer said:

Very good stuff. Start with Menace, Fresh Printz, and J-Bap. Add an A-Tonn, Doncicci, or In-the-Bagley. Trade/sign a Grik Frik, Zinger, or Red Georgia Klay Thompson. Then you got something cookin’ in ‘19-‘20...

This is what is called unrealistic expectations.  We are apparently tanking because we "can't sign star players", and in the plan posted here, we are suddenly going to be able to sign a star player between Giannis/Kristaps and a player some are convinced is a star but he really isn't in Thompson.

The only thing that is going to be cookin' in '19-'20 is another lottery pick.  

[AHF]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

This is what is called unrealistic expectations.  We are apparently tanking because we "can't sign star players", and in the plan posted here, we are suddenly going to be able to sign a star player between Giannis/Kristaps and a player some are convinced is a star but he really isn't in Thompson.

The only thing that is going to be cookin' in '19-'20 is another lottery pick.  

We shouldn't expect to start luring Greek Freak type players unless and until we have an MVP level player of our own.  Golden State has shown how that transformation can happen.  There is no guarantee of it happening here but you can absolutely guarantee no elite player would sign here if we simply re-upped Sap, Dwight, etc. and kept on trying to simply make the playoffs without a worthy core.

 

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

We shouldn't expect to start luring Greek Freak type players unless and until we have an MVP level player of our own.  Golden State has shown how that transformation can happen.  There is no guarantee of it happening here but you can absolutely guarantee no elite player would sign here if we simply re-upped Sap, Dwight, etc. and kept on trying to simply make the playoffs without a worthy core.

 

You can also guarantee that no Greek Freak type players are going to a team that is openly tanking.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

We shouldn't expect to start luring Greek Freak type players unless and until we have an MVP level player of our own.  Golden State has shown how that transformation can happen.  There is no guarantee of it happening here but you can absolutely guarantee no elite player would sign here if we simply re-upped Sap, Dwight, etc. and kept on trying to simply make the playoffs without a worthy core.

 

I think GS is a totally different picture.  I think a bigger part of their success was trading for the right guys and they had a HC (at the time) who could lure some of these players because he was a player.  Nobody really wanted to play with Monta.   Curry wasn't great in the beginning.  Their blueprint is not easy to follow.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

You can also guarantee that no Greek Freak type players are going to a team that is openly tanking.

Agreed.

Hawks as a playoff team with no star core - Never getting a Greek Freak free agent

Hawks while tanking - Never getting a Greek Freak free agent

Hawks if they get a contending core - Possible to get a Greek Freak

 

Same as Golden State.  Golden State couldn't land Kevin Durant while they were the 3rd worst team in the Western Conference.  They got him after they drafted their core, had their MVP talent and supporting cast, and could offer him something enticing.  He didn't give a crap about their years in the lottery or their historic place in the NBA pecking order.  He went there because he saw a path to a ring.

[AHF]

35 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Their blueprint is not easy to follow.

No championship blueprint is easy to follow.  If the blueprint was as easy as "lose a #$# ton of games and draft Jordan or Hakeem, etc.; build for a half decade; win multiple rings" then everyone would do it.  Lots of execution risk and most teams trying will not reach that perennial contender status.

Hitting the "resign" button on a team like last year's roster, however, gives you an inevitable blueprint to non-contender status until you get bad enough to get into the lottery and open the door to changing that trajectory.  In the meantime, you will enjoy some 1st and 2nd round playoff exits until your team deteriorates into something resembling Memphis's or Dallas's current state.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

No championship blueprint is easy to follow.  If the blueprint was as easy as "lose a #$# ton of games and draft Jordan or Hakeem, etc.; build for a half decade; win multiple rings" then everyone would do it.  Lots of execution risk and most teams trying will not reach that perennial contender status.

Hitting the "resign" button on a team like last year's roster, however, gives you an inevitable blueprint to non-contender status until you get bad enough to get into the lottery and open the door to changing that trajectory.  In the meantime, you will enjoy some 1st and 2nd round playoff exits until your team deteriorates into something resembling Memphis's or Dallas's current state.

Let me restate it.  GS's blueprint are not reproducible.   Look at all the events that had to happen:

1.  4 teams ignore his stats and pass on Steph because of his size. 
2. People pass on Klay for lesser players.  (Hello Milwuakee). 
3. A lot of teams pass on Draymond because they don't believe Izzo when he said he was the perfect Spartan, nor do they think he has the size to be effective on this level. 
4. Steph's injuries make his resigning a low ball resigning. 
5. Milwaukee no longer seeing value in Bogut and are willing to take Monte for him.

Do you believe that we can trade Baze for Whitesides?

Just saying...   it's impossible and not reproducible.   There were so many stars that aligned the right way for GS that for a team to say that we're going to do what they did would be equivalent to a virgin saying, I'm going to go out and give birth to a child. 

 

[AHF]

26 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Let me restate it.  GS's blueprint are not reproducible.   Look at all the events that had to happen:

1.  4 teams ignore his stats and pass on Steph because of his size. 
2. People pass on Klay for lesser players.  (Hello Milwuakee). 
3. A lot of teams pass on Draymond because they don't believe Izzo when he said he was the perfect Spartan, nor do they think he has the size to be effective on this level. 
4. Steph's injuries make his resigning a low ball resigning. 
5. Milwaukee no longer seeing value in Bogut and are willing to take Monte for him.

Do you believe that we can trade Baze for Whitesides?

Just saying...   it's impossible and not reproducible.   There were so many stars that aligned the right way for GS that for a team to say that we're going to do what they did would be equivalent to a virgin saying, I'm going to go out and give birth to a child. 

 

The basic blueprint of get into the lottery, draft your core player(s) and spend several years building around them is not easy to do but definitely is reproducible.  It is the blueprint of most champions.

The exact blueprint doesn't have to be replicated piece for piece for someone to adapt the broad strokes of the strategy.  It is a matter of drafting your core players (or trading lottery picks to get them) and then building around them.  The reason it has been repeated in different flavors is because it is always easier to retain a superstar than to attract one via free agency or try to trade for one without lottery picks.  It has been done by a lot of multiple champions (Bulls, Rockets, Pistons, Warriors, etc.). 

What you don't see happen is the reverse of putting together a mediocre playoff team that lacks a championship core like we have been doing for a while now and then catapulting into contender status without playing in the lottery.

[nathan2331]

Let me restate it.  GS's blueprint are not reproducible.   Look at all the events that had to happen:

1.  4 teams ignore his stats and pass on Steph because of his size. 
2. People pass on Klay for lesser players.  (Hello Milwuakee). 
3. A lot of teams pass on Draymond because they don't believe Izzo when he said he was the perfect Spartan, nor do they think he has the size to be effective on this level. 
4. Steph's injuries make his resigning a low ball resigning. 
5. Milwaukee no longer seeing value in Bogut and are willing to take Monte for him.

Do you believe that we can trade Baze for Whitesides?

Just saying...   it's impossible and not reproducible.   There were so many stars that aligned the right way for GS that for a team to say that we're going to do what they did would be equivalent to a virgin saying, I'm going to go out and give birth to a child. 

 

We don't need to follow anyone's blueprint, I just gave you one. We're not that bad right now, even with the worst record in the NBA. We had Cavanaugh starting for us at C against the Cavs and kept it close for most of the game. We suck defensively, but defense is not what it used to be in the NBA. A good scheme can get you a good defense, even when the players aren't special.

 

Ayton is probably the worst defender I've ever wanted the Hawks to draft, but I'm 100% certain he or Doncic could turn this franchise around Day 1. He's got everything in the toolbox a modern center needs, he just needs to refine his shooting. For all the complaints about his motor, the guy is averaging 20-10 with guards that can barely set him up. His defense again is absolute garbage, but it's not for lack of ability but more so that he makes bad decisions on that end which causes problems for the rest of the team. He's too good right now for me to pass up.

 

I was so down on this team at the beginning of the season, I almost got myself thrown out of Philips for arguing with the ticket representatives about how hopeless our future was. Now that I've seen us play, I've realized Hawks basketball is still alive even if we don't have talent to make it successful. Once we get some better talent, which won't be hard between the cap room and draft picks, coach Bud will get us where we want to be.

 

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[KB21]

5 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

We don't need to follow anyone's blueprint, I just gave you one. We're not that bad right now, even with the worst record in the NBA. We had Cavanaugh starting for us at C against the Cavs and kept it close for most of the game. We suck defensively, but defense is not what it used to be in the NBA. A good scheme can get you a good defense, even when the players aren't special.

 

Ayton is probably the worst defender I've ever wanted the Hawks to draft, but I'm 100% certain he or Doncic could turn this franchise around Day 1. He's got everything in the toolbox a modern center needs, he just needs to refine his shooting. For all the complaints about his motor, the guy is averaging 20-10 with guards that can barely set him up. His defense again is absolute garbage, but it's not for lack of ability but more so that he makes bad decisions on that end which causes problems for the rest of the team. He's too good right now for me to pass up.

 

I was so down on this team at the beginning of the season, I almost got myself thrown out of Philips for arguing with the ticket representatives about how hopeless our future was. Now that I've seen us play, I've realized Hawks basketball is still alive even if we don't have talent to make it successful. Once we get some better talent, which won't be hard between the cap room and draft picks, coach Bud will get us where we want to be.

 

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Give me an example of a team turning things around based on the play of a rookie.

[nathan2331]

 

 

Give me an example of a team turning things around based on the play of a rookie.

 

An unfair example would be the Spurs. Right now, the Sixers have gone from worst team in existence to playoff team with the play from Embiid and Simmons. Of course injuries are a factor in that. I do believe this draft has better talent at the top than one's in previous years however.

 

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[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

An unfair example would be the Spurs. Right now, the Sixers have gone from worst team in existence to playoff team with the play from Embiid and Simmons. Of course injuries are a factor in that. I do believe this draft has better talent at the top than one's in previous years however.

 

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The Philly example is funny, because they are in year 5 of their "process", and they are still not a lock for the playoffs.  Particularly if Embiid gets hurt and misses any time.

[nathan2331]

 

The Philly example is funny, because they are in year 5 of their "process", and they are still not a lock for the playoffs.  Particularly if Embiid gets hurt and misses any time.

 

 

They've taken 5 years because they couldn't draft their cornerstone and have them on the court. Now they've got 2, even if one can't stay healthy. We've had 0 since Dominique was traded (I don't consider Horford to be that), that's just reality.

 

Ask yourself this: Would you take last year's Hawk roster or the Sixer's today without Embiid's health issues?

 

 

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[KB21]

3 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

They've taken 5 years because they couldn't draft their cornerstone and have them on the court. Now they've got 2, even if one can't stay healthy. We've had 0 since Dominique was traded (I don't consider Horford to be that), that's just reality.

 

Ask yourself this: Would you take last year's Hawk roster or the Sixer's today without Embiid's health issues?

 

 

 

 

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I would definitely take the Hawks roster of 2014-2015 over what Philly has right now.  

[nathan2331]

 

 

I would definitely take the Hawks roster of 2014-2015 over what Philly has right now.  

 

That's not the question. Would you rather have last year's roster, or the Sixer's now?

 

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[KB21]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

That's not the question. Would you rather have last year's roster, or the Sixer's now?

 

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Considering that I wouldn't have signed Dwight Howard and the results are going to be similar between the two rosters, it is a push.  

[Wurider05]

6 hours ago, Sothron said:

We got 3 pieces already on the team plus a good coach. If Travis makes a pick like he did with Collins at #19 then we should be excited for years to come. Let the two lemons keep on being sour. Anyone with a brain can see this team has a good future ahead of it.

Post of the week sir!!!!!

[nathan2331]

 

 

You make a very good point talking about Portland.  I think we can easily become another Portland situation (which most bottom teams do) i.e. we get a good player, develop him and watch him leave.  I see us getting impatient like they did with Crabbe and not pay than overpay.  Our GM is not an overpayer.. so what do you think happens when Prince and Dennis' contracts come up?  Our GM is of the belief that he will find the next Curry in the draft.  It's a pipefitter's dream. 

 

Prince I wouldn't expect anyone to overpay for, so I'd expect us to match his contract without much drama. By the time Dennis is a free agent it should be clear where we are heading as a franchise. If I'm right and we're trending upwards, we'll pay him and everyone will be happy about it. If we're still struggling I'd expect us to trade him for whatever he's worth. Losing free agents can be devastating if you don't have replacements behind them.

 

I think our GM is right that we can get our franchise player in this draft. After this year I'm not sure, I can't put my faith in high school seniors yet. But Ayton, Doncic, or Bagley could genuinely become our talisman.

 

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[hazer]

I can’t see a certain Miserable One’s posts, only responses to it. So let me say this: I’m not naive to think those sorts of players I mentioned would come to a tanking Hawks team. I’m speaking of year 3 (this is year 1), when the Hawks are building on Dennis, Prince, and Collins and have drafted Collins and Ayton/Doncic/Bagley in back-to-back years and are back in the playoffs. I’m also speaking of trades, not just FAcy. Unrealistic expectations are thinking the Hawks will still be in the lottery in 5 years. I’m not getting into that tired argument again, it’s why someone is in ignore. Is there a way to ignore when others quote them too? I guess I just have to do that manually...

[KB21]

Yeah.  Players are going to flock to Atlanta to play with Dennis Schröder, who will not be a part of this team when it is good again.