Official Game Thread: Pistons at Hawks

[RedDawg#8]

Dennis is our best player and gets way too much hate for his defense. Our team sucks and lacks talent and everyone wants to come after the one guy that actually has game because he isn't making a bunch of scrubs better. Dennis would lead the NBA in assists if dudes could actually knock down an open shot, tell me I'm wrong

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

....and that's where you are wrong.  You do not let players just do their thing.  That's how players, in particular young players, develop bad habits.  That's how AAU coaches coach.

Sometimes, you do though.  When you have a team that is devoid of real talent, and you only have 1 or 2 players who are truly talented, you sometimes have to let them carry the team.

Or with good teams, you may have one person that can get their shot anytime they want, and that is your best path to win games.

The most disappointing thing about Bud in the last 1.5 years, is that he's not trusting his PGs to be the floor leaders.  Bud wants to micro manage the entire offense, like a college coach.  Instead of using this season to let Dennis have more of a leadership out on the floor, he's griping over little things with Dennis that is causing even more friction.  The trust has to be there to let Dennis figure all of this out for himself.

This is what it looks like, when a coach trusts the ability and decision making of a player.  Ironically, he used to be one of Bud's assistants.

 

JJ got just about every shot he wanted in this game.  And when the Jazz needed points, Quin had absolutely NO PROBLEM letting him go ISO on multiple possessions in the 4th quarter.

But when it really came time to put the game away, JJ used his threat as a scorer to set up others for dagger 3 point makes.

At some point, Bud has to start trusting Dennis to do the right things, even if he doesn't do them all of the time.  And he can't keep acting like his defense is the issue with the team, when the whole team sucks defensively.

 

This is what it looks like, when you let Dennis be Dennis . .

 

[BrazilianHawk]

9 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Dennis is our best player and gets way too much hate for his defense. Our team sucks and lacks talent and everyone wants to come after the one guy that actually has game because he isn't making a bunch of scrubs better. Dennis would lead the NBA in assists if dudes could actually knock down an open shot, tell me I'm wrong

What do you mean, 'a bunch of scrubs'? This team is one player away from getting back to the playoffs. Or so 'they' told me.

[KB21]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Sometimes, you do though.  When you have a team that is devoid of real talent, and you only have 1 or 2 players who are truly talented, you sometimes have to let them carry the team.

Or with good teams, you may have one person that can get their shot anytime they want, and that is your best path to win games.

The most disappointing thing about Bud in the last 1.5 years, is that he's not trusting his PGs to be the floor leaders.  Bud wants to micro manage the entire offense, like a college coach.  Instead of using this season to let Dennis have more of a leadership out on the floor, he's griping over little things with Dennis that is causing even more friction.  The trust has to be there to let Dennis figure all of this out for himself.

This is what it looks like, when a coach trusts the ability and decision making of a player.  Ironically, he used to be one of Bud's assistants.

 

JJ got just about every shot he wanted in this game.  And when the Jazz needed points, Quin had absolutely NO PROBLEM letting him go ISO on multiple possessions in the 4th quarter.

But when it really came time to put the game away, JJ used his threat as a scorer to set up others for dagger 3 point makes.

At some point, Bud has to start trusting Dennis to do the right things, even if he doesn't do them all of the time.  And he can't keep acting like his defense is the issue with the team, when the whole team sucks defensively.

 

This is what it looks like, when you let Dennis be Dennis . .

 

That trust has to be earned through the player's actions on the court, and to this point, Dennis has not earned that trust.  It's not his defensive effectiveness that is the issue.  It's his level of effort.  He's not trying on defense.  John Collins isn't good on defense either, but he at least gives tremendous effort in his attempts to defend.  

Here's the other thing as well.  You let Dennis do what he wants to do, and you will still lose games.  Dennis doesn't impact the game in areas that contribute to winning.  He's not an efficient shooter, and when you ask him to do too much, his turnovers go up.  He's also not a rebounder for his position, and he doesn't get to the free throw line.  Those are your four factors of success in the NBA: Shooting efficiency, rebounding, turnover percentage, and free throws.  

[High5]

There are so many assumptions and weird connections that get made to criticize Bud on here. Now we're posting Joe Johnson highlights to somehow prove that Dennis should always have a green light. And we're ignoring the fact that Dennis already almost always has a green light and we've lost plenty of games on the back of him bricking jumpers, committing lackadaisical turnovers, or being repeatedly shut down at the rim. We're also posting Dennis highlights and acting like Bud wasn't the coach apparently. It's all very confusing. 

Does Bud always pick the best moments to be strict with Dennis? Probably not. Does Dennis need tough love at times? Absolutely. He's still only 24 and relatively inexperienced at being a starter and a leader. Pop still benches his veteran, championship-winning players at times when he's not pleased with their effort or focus. 

And to be fair, I do think Dennis gets judged more harshly than he deserves by some people. I was worried about his game going south this season and that hasn't been the case. I'm willing to cut him some slack given the circumstances. 

[Lurker]

guess what, trying to pinhole players into your "idea" of who they should be for your team doesn't exactly work, especially in the pros but really from college and up. Unless the coach is really respected they're eventually going to be told to screw off.

you can't really build any teams on what Johnny should be and what Sammy should be in your head, you just have to rock with it. If you have an idea of what they are, you build to their strengths and not hamper them. 

[NBASupes]

13 hours ago, Vol4ever said:

Never seen a Hawks team with a defense this bad.    Smdh

Losing Al Horford and Millsap will do that to you. That said, those early and mid 2000s defenses were pretty bad. Of course, for their era, it was okay but if you put them in today's NBA, they would be horrendous. 

[hazer]

3 hours ago, BrazilianHawk said:

What do you mean, 'a bunch of scrubs'? This team is one player away from getting back to the playoffs. Or so 'they' told me.

Hawks are 2 players away from returning to the playoffs: a homerun in this year’s lottery and a savvy trade for an All-Star level starter. I believe they’ll be back in there by ‘19-‘20. Not some 5-10 year drought, setting up camp down in Lotteryville like a couple of y’all claim.

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, hazer said:

Hawks are 2 players away from returning to the playoffs: a homerun in this year’s lottery and a savvy trade for an All-Star level starter. I believe they’ll be back in there by ‘19-‘20. Not some 5-10 year drought, setting up camp down in Lotteryville like a couple of y’all claim.

I think someone should put their money where their mouth is.  

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, hazer said:

Hawks are 2 players away from returning to the playoffs: a homerun in this year’s lottery and a savvy trade for an All-Star level starter. I believe they’ll be back in there by ‘19-‘20. Not some 5-10 year drought, setting up camp down in Lotteryville like a couple of y’all claim.

Yeah... Lebron James and Steph Curry. 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yeah... Lebron James and Steph Curry. 

We would be in the playoffs if we had either one of them

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, KB21 said:

That trust has to be earned through the player's actions on the court, and to this point, Dennis has not earned that trust.  It's not his defensive effectiveness that is the issue.  It's his level of effort.  He's not trying on defense.  John Collins isn't good on defense either, but he at least gives tremendous effort in his attempts to defend.  

Here's the other thing as well.  You let Dennis do what he wants to do, and you will still lose games.  Dennis doesn't impact the game in areas that contribute to winning.  He's not an efficient shooter, and when you ask him to do too much, his turnovers go up.  He's also not a rebounder for his position, and he doesn't get to the free throw line.  Those are your four factors of success in the NBA: Shooting efficiency, rebounding, turnover percentage, and free throws.  

Player 1 is Dennis

19.7 ppg - 6.5 asst - 2.8 rebs - 2.6 TOs

45.4% FG - 32.3% 3FG - 85.2% FT

18.9 PER - 52.6 TS% - .078 WS/48

 

Player 2 is ( current NBA starter )

13.6 ppg - 7.1 asst - 2.8 rebs - 3.1 TOs

44.2% FG - 40.9 3FG - 81.2% FT

14.9 PER - 55.3 TS% - .076 WS/48

 

Which one would be better for the Hawks?

 

 

[nathan2331]

Player 1 is Dennis

19.7 ppg - 6.5 asst - 2.8 rebs - 2.6 TOs

45.4% FG - 32.3% 3FG - 85.2% FT

18.9 PER - 52.6 TS% - .078 WS/48

 

Player 2 is ( current NBA starter )

13.6 ppg - 7.1 asst - 2.8 rebs - 3.1 TOs

44.2% FG - 40.9 3FG - 81.2% FT

14.9 PER - 55.3 TS% - .076 WS/48

 

Which one would be better for the Hawks?

 

 

Player 2 isn't Dennis, so I'm going to have go with Player 2! /s

 

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Lurker]

I like the guy that is very unselfish and an excellent shooter. 

(I've said that I changed my mind on dennis but I'm being spiteful here just be annoying ;))

[KB21]

28 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Player 1 is Dennis

19.7 ppg - 6.5 asst - 2.8 rebs - 2.6 TOs

45.4% FG - 32.3% 3FG - 85.2% FT

18.9 PER - 52.6 TS% - .078 WS/48

 

Player 2 is ( current NBA starter )

13.6 ppg - 7.1 asst - 2.8 rebs - 3.1 TOs

44.2% FG - 40.9 3FG - 81.2% FT

14.9 PER - 55.3 TS% - .076 WS/48

 

Which one would be better for the Hawks?

 

 

Player 2 is Jeff Teague, and neither player is particularly strong when it comes to making an impact on winning.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, High5 said:

There are so many assumptions and weird connections that get made to criticize Bud on here. Now we're posting Joe Johnson highlights to somehow prove that Dennis should always have a green light. And we're ignoring the fact that Dennis already almost always has a green light and we've lost plenty of games on the back of him bricking jumpers, committing lackadaisical turnovers, or being repeatedly shut down at the rim. We're also posting Dennis highlights and acting like Bud wasn't the coach apparently. It's all very confusing. 

Does Bud always pick the best moments to be strict with Dennis? Probably not. Does Dennis need tough love at times? Absolutely. He's still only 24 and relatively inexperienced at being a starter and a leader. Pop still benches his veteran, championship-winning players at times when he's not pleased with their effort or focus. 

And to be fair, I do think Dennis gets judged more harshly than he deserves by some people. I was worried about his game going south this season and that hasn't been the case. I'm willing to cut him some slack given the circumstances. 

 

The videos were posted for the exact reasons I stated.  And that is sometimes, you simply have to let players "play their game", in order for the team to win.  The NBA is not college, in which the offensive system is the most important element to win games.  The reason why just about everyone around here wants a superstar player, is because superstar players sometimes play out of their minds and take over games offensively.  And the players who are great in this league, exhibit this ability sporadically at first, then do it on a more consistent basis.

We got a team full of journeymen players and guys barely out of college.  Most of these guys wouldn't crack anyone's starting lineup, and would be fringe rotation players.  Yet, when Dennis takes it upon himself to try to help the team win by scoring the basketball, there's an issue with that?  Even if he's forcing the issue, that's actually a POSITIVE, not a negative.  This means that Dennis cares about the outcome of a game, and his ability to affect that outcome.

This should've been the year in which Bud and the organization should've tried to see just how much of a leadership role Dennis could handle. Let him be a leader, and let him be free to play to his strengths as a player.  Don't try to pigeonhole that dude into playing "system" basketball 100% of the time, with a bunch of guys who WILL NOT be on this team ( or in the NBA ) in 2  - 3 years.  

No, this season should be all about Dennis, Prince, and Collins, and their development into high level basketball players.  Challenging them to be better in certain areas is fine.  But Bud only reacts harshly toward one individual on the team when they do something detrimental to the team ( in his eyes ).  Even Bazemore and Delaney gets more of a pass from Bud, than Dennis, and that's absolutely incredible.

Despite Bud being a good ( not great, but good ) coach, he is set in his ways and is stubborn as hell.  Maybe even more stubborn than Woody.

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by TheNorthCydeRises

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Player 2 is Jeff Teague, and neither player is particularly strong when it comes to making an impact on winning.

So why isn't Jeff Teague particularly strong when it comes to making an impact on winning, despite his elevated shooting percentages?

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So why isn't Jeff Teague particularly strong when it comes to making an impact on winning, despite his elevated shooting percentages?

Assists to turnover ratio is not great, and he doesn't get to the free throw line enough.

[Lurker]

In everything except the NBA, it can be about working hard, growing up together, and a great system meaning something. In the NBA, it just isn't, really isn't at all.

Taurean has had bad moments but has actually come along pretty well of late, he needs to just not do too much and hopefully rediscover his love for at least working on defense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Assists to turnover ratio is not great, and he doesn't get to the free throw line enough.

And he's missing the one element that Dennis has

 

That's why he was traded in the first place.