Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yep.   Lil Goldie is a poor man's Stephon Marbury. 

 

Steph made the All-Star team that year.

Watch the end . . . 

 

 

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, AHF said:

Starbury from ages 21-30 played for the Nets and Knicks.  

 

In NJ, Marbury ran offenses that ranked:

26th in assists

25th in assists

26th in assists

(The Nets ranked #3 in assists the season after he was gone).

Marbury then went to NY and ran offenses that ranked:

#16 in assists

#26 in assists

#30 in assists

#28 in assists

#30 in assists

(The Knicks improved to #11 in assists the season after he was gone).

 

Dennis is currently running an offense that ranks #7 in assists.  He has never played on a team that wasn't top 10 in assists.

 

So there is a difference in terms of how the ball moves on teams with Dennis versus prime-Marbury.

Team Assists.. vs. Personal Assists.  Marbury had more assists per game than Dennis.

[Lurker]

Truly sad how the coach is using Collins. Threes should not be a "right now" thing, they should be an offseason thing after he has time to work on it.

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Team Assists.. vs. Personal Assists.  Marbury had more assists per game than Dennis.

Marbury was much more of a ball stopper than Dennis.  He got assists like AI did.  He was a more talented scorer than Dennis but spent significantly more time pounding the ball.

[Diesel]

30 minutes ago, AHF said:

Marbury was much more of a ball stopper than Dennis.  He got assists like AI did.  He was a more talented scorer than Dennis but spent significantly more time pounding the ball.

Marbury played in the iso age.  There was no team ball movement.

I just did a search of teams that had 3100 assists and 33% from 3.  The only team that made the cut was the warriors.   Over the last 20 years. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

37 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Team Assists.. vs. Personal Assists.  Marbury had more assists per game than Dennis.

That's not entirely accurate.

Marbury got 7.6 assists in 38 minutes of play

Dennis getes 6.8 assists in 32 minutes of play.

 

When you look at their stats when tabulated on a per 36 minute basis . . .

Marbury:  7.1 assists

Dennis:  7.5 assists

 

Matter of fact, here are both of their stat lines on a Per 36 minute basis:

Marbury:  22.5 ppg - 7.1 asst - 2.9 rebs - 1.1 stls - 2.8 TOs . . . . 44% FG - 33% 3FG - 79% FT ( on 6.4 att )

Dennis:     22.0 ppg - 7.5 asst - 3.3 rebs - 1.2 stls - 2.8 TOs . . . . 45% FG - 30% 3FG - 86% FT ( on 4 att

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dennis+Schröder&player_id1_select=Dennis+Schröder&y1=2018&player_id1=schrode01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Monta+Ellis&player_id2_select=Monta+Ellis&y2=2010&player_id2=ellismo01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Stephon+Marbury&player_id3_select=Stephon+Marbury&y3=2001&player_id3=marbust01&idx=players&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#stats-per_game

 

If Dennis could be as dynamic of a player as Marbury was in that season, I'd definitely be happy.

This is a great comparison of players Diesel.  Dennis is in the middle of volume scoring Monta and All-Star Steph.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I want Dennis to have one of these games.   A game that puts the league on notice.

 

 

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That's not entirely accurate.

Marbury got 7.6 assists in 38 minutes of play

Dennis getes 6.8 assists in 32 minutes of play.

 

When you look at their stats when tabulated on a per 36 minute basis . . .

Marbury:  7.1 assists

Dennis:  7.5 assists

 

Matter of fact, here are both of their stat lines on a Per 36 minute basis:

Marbury:  22.5 ppg - 7.1 asst - 2.9 rebs - 1.1 stls - 2.8 TOs . . . . 44% FG - 33% 3FG - 79% FT ( on 6.4 att )

Dennis:     22.0 ppg - 7.5 asst - 3.3 rebs - 1.2 stls - 2.8 TOs . . . . 45% FG - 30% 3FG - 86% FT ( on 4 att

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dennis+Schröder&player_id1_select=Dennis+Schröder&y1=2018&player_id1=schrode01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Monta+Ellis&player_id2_select=Monta+Ellis&y2=2010&player_id2=ellismo01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Stephon+Marbury&player_id3_select=Stephon+Marbury&y3=2001&player_id3=marbust01&idx=players&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#stats-per_game

 

If Dennis could be as dynamic of a player as Marbury was in that season, I'd definitely be happy.

This is a great comparison of players Diesel.  Dennis is in the middle of volume scoring Monta and All-Star Steph.

 

Still when you compare Team Assists and MOST if not all of the teams in that time played ISOBALL then you have fake news.   AHF brought in FAKE news with that misleading team stats.  It's like comparing DeAndre Jordan's rebounding to Pat Ewings.  Pat played in a time with many more Centers who could rebound.   I said Personal Stats.   Still Goldie Like Marbury (as you mentioned) is a Volume Scorer.   Like Marbury is an ISOPlayer.  All I'm saying is tell the truth and call him what he is. 

[Lurker]

Sure, this was in the ISO era, but still, look at where the teams Marbury ranked on were in assists in that FREAKING ISOball era. 

This is a horrifically comical agenda. I'm done with Dennis and want to see the Hawks release him but you are comical Diesel.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, Lurker said:

Sure, this was in the ISO era, but still, look at where the teams Marbury ranked on were in assists in that FREAKING ISOball era. 

This is a horrifically comical agenda. I'm done with Dennis and want to see the Hawks release him but you are comical Diesel.

Your statement is Oxymoronic. 

You clearly state that it was the Isoperiod.  A period of basketball where the ball intentionally stopped moving.  Where the ball went into the hands of ONE MAN who choose what to do with the ball.   I said that personal stats should trump Team Stats because his team wasn't a passing team.   Personally however,  Here's how it shook out.

1.	Jason Kidd • PHO	9.8
2.	John Stockton* • UTA	8.7
3.	Nick Van Exel • DEN	8.5
4.	Mike Bibby • VAN	8.4
5.	Gary Payton* • SEA	8.1
6.	Andre Miller • CLE	8.0
7.	Mark Jackson • TOT	8.0
8.	Sam Cassell • MIL	7.6
9.	Stephon Marbury • NJN	7.6
10.	Terrell Brandon • MIN	7.5
11.	Baron Davis • CHH	7.3
12.	Steve Nash • DAL	7.3
13.	Darrell Armstrong • ORL	7.0
14.	Mookie Blaylock • GSW	6.7
15.	Steve Francis • HOU	6.5
16.	Tim Hardaway • MIA	6.3
17.	Travis Best • IND	6.1
18.	Jalen Rose • IND	6.0
19.	Damon Stoudamire • POR	5.7
20.	Jeff McInnis • LAC	5.5

Note the guys who he falls ahead of:  Davis, Nash, Francis, Hardaway, Stoudamire... The guys ahead of him were not the volume scorer that he was.   Maybe Van Exel.   My contention is that Lil Goldie is a poor man's Marbury.  That's not a slight, I think Marbury is one of the best volume shooting PGs to play the game.   However, many here have their panties in a wad about the statement because: 1.  They can't deny it.  2.  They recognize that Marbury did stop the ball movement but still had high assists numbers.  3.  They also recognize that Marbury was a isoplayer. 

BTW.,.  The other proof...  I remember people getting giddy over AsT% for Dennis.  How does Stephon Relate?

1.John Stockton* • UTA48.7

2.Jason Kidd • PHO41.2

3.Stephon Marbury • NJN40.8

4.Andre Miller • CLE40.5

5.Mark Jackson • TOT39.3

6.Nick Van Exel • DEN38.4

7.Mike Bibby • VAN38.3

8.Gary Payton* • SEA36.6

9.Sam Cassell • MIL36.4

10.Tim Hardaway • MIA35.5

11.Steve Nash • DAL34.6

12.Travis Best • IND34.0

13.Eric Snow • PHI33.9

14.Terrell Brandon • MIN33.7

15.Baron Davis • CHH32.5

16.Mookie Blaylock • GSW32.3

17.Darrell Armstrong • ORL31.3

18.Jacque Vaughn • UTA31.0

19.Chris Childs • TOT29.8

20.Anthony Carter • MIA29.5

 

Lil Goldie = Poor man's Marbury. 

[AHF]

13 hours ago, Diesel said:

Still when you compare Team Assists and MOST if not all of the teams in that time played ISOBALL then you have fake news.   AHF brought in FAKE news with that misleading team stats.  

Lmfao  (I'm hoping your post was a meta satire but I'm treating it as genuine).

 

What you say would only be true if I was comparing raw assist numbers between teams in different eras but I didn't.

You used "fake news" just like someone  else:  as a way of saying you don't like the numbers not that they are fake.

I gave you numbers adjusted for the era. Rankings are relative to the era, not a reflection on how they would compare to a team today.

What they say is that in an era that had way too much ISO, Marbury's teams stood out for their lack of ball movement.  Why do you think once he was in charge of teams they all got better (both overall record and assist ranking) when he was gone?  You'll find that plenty of people recognized that at the time and crapped on Starbury (deservedly) for the negative impact on his teams due to his ballhogging.

Dennis's numbers that I posted were also relative to the era.  In an era notable for the rise in ball movement, he leads one of the teams with the most sharing of the ball.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Your statement is Oxymoronic. 

You clearly state that it was the Isoperiod.  A period of basketball where the ball intentionally stopped moving.  Where the ball went into the hands of ONE MAN who choose what to do with the ball.   I said that personal stats should trump Team Stats because his team wasn't a passing team.   Personally however,  Here's how it shook out.

1.	Jason Kidd • PHO	9.8
2.	John Stockton* • UTA	8.7
3.	Nick Van Exel • DEN	8.5
4.	Mike Bibby • VAN	8.4
5.	Gary Payton* • SEA	8.1
6.	Andre Miller • CLE	8.0
7.	Mark Jackson • TOT	8.0
8.	Sam Cassell • MIL	7.6
9.	Stephon Marbury • NJN	7.6
10.	Terrell Brandon • MIN	7.5
11.	Baron Davis • CHH	7.3
12.	Steve Nash • DAL	7.3
13.	Darrell Armstrong • ORL	7.0
14.	Mookie Blaylock • GSW	6.7
15.	Steve Francis • HOU	6.5
16.	Tim Hardaway • MIA	6.3
17.	Travis Best • IND	6.1
18.	Jalen Rose • IND	6.0
19.	Damon Stoudamire • POR	5.7
20.	Jeff McInnis • LAC	5.5

Note the guys who he falls ahead of:  Davis, Nash, Francis, Hardaway, Stoudamire... The guys ahead of him were not the volume scorer that he was.   Maybe Van Exel.   My contention is that Lil Goldie is a poor man's Marbury.  That's not a slight, I think Marbury is one of the best volume shooting PGs to play the game.   However, many here have their panties in a wad about the statement because: 1.  They can't deny it.  2.  They recognize that Marbury did stop the ball movement but still had high assists numbers.  3.  They also recognize that Marbury was a isoplayer. 

BTW.,.  The other proof...  I remember people getting giddy over AsT% for Dennis.  How does Stephon Relate?

1.John Stockton* • UTA48.7

2.Jason Kidd • PHO41.2

3.Stephon Marbury • NJN40.8

4.Andre Miller • CLE40.5

5.Mark Jackson • TOT39.3

6.Nick Van Exel • DEN38.4

7.Mike Bibby • VAN38.3

8.Gary Payton* • SEA36.6

9.Sam Cassell • MIL36.4

10.Tim Hardaway • MIA35.5

11.Steve Nash • DAL34.6

12.Travis Best • IND34.0

13.Eric Snow • PHI33.9

14.Terrell Brandon • MIN33.7

15.Baron Davis • CHH32.5

16.Mookie Blaylock • GSW32.3

17.Darrell Armstrong • ORL31.3

18.Jacque Vaughn • UTA31.0

19.Chris Childs • TOT29.8

20.Anthony Carter • MIA29.5

 

Lil Goldie = Poor man's Marbury. 

Let's review your 2001 PG assist leader list again, and see who the guy was that led that particular team in scoring . . and how they fared in the playoffs.  If a PG led their team in scoring, he will be in RED

 

PHO: Kidd  . . . . . . . . . . . . Marion ( 17.3 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins) / playoffs?:    ( 51 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

UTA:  Stockton . . . . . . . . .Malone ( 23.2 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins) / playoffs?:    ( 53 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

DEN: VanExel . . . . . . . . . . McDyess ( 20.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . .  ( team wins ) / playoffs?:   ( 44 ) / NO

VAN: Bibby . . . . . . . . . . . . Abdur-Rahim ( 20.5 ppg ) . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?:   ( 25 ) / NO

SEA: Payton . . . . . . . . . .Payton ( 23.1 ppg )  . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 44 ) / NO

CLE: Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . .Miller ( 15.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?     ( 30 ) / NO

TOR: Jackson . . . . . . . . . Carter ( 27.3 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . .( traded to NYK )

NYK: Jackson . . . . . . . . . Houston ( 18.7 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 48 ) / NO

MIL: Cassell . . . . . . . . . . . .Allen/Big Dog ( 22 ppg ) . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 52 ) / YES . . Lost in ECF in 7 games

NJN: Marbury . . . . . . .  Marbury ( 23.9 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 26 ) / NO

MIN: Brandon . . . . . . . . . .Garnett ( 22 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 47 ) / YES . .  Lost in 1st rd

CHA: Davis . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mashburn ( 20.1 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 46 ) / YES . . .Lost in 2nd rd in 7 games

DAL: Nash . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nowitzki ( 21.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 53 ) / YES . . . Lost in 2nd rd in 5 games

ORL: Armstrong . . . . . . . . McGrady ( 26.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 43 ) / YES . . . Lost in 1st rd

GSW: Blaylock . . . . . . . . . Jamison ( 24.9 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 17 ) / NO

MIA: Hardaway . . . . . . . . .E. Jones ( 17.4 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 50 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

IND: Best/Rose . . . . . . . Rose ( 20.5 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 41 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

POR: Stoudamire . . . . . . Wallace ( 19.2 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 50 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

LAC: McInnis . . . . . . . . . . Odom ( 17.2 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 31 ) / NO

 

 

Thoughts?

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Let's review your 2001 PG assist leader list again, and see who the guy was that led that particular team in scoring . . and how they fared in the playoffs.  If a PG led their team in scoring, he will be in RED

 

PHO: Kidd  . . . . . . . . . . . . Marion ( 17.3 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins) / playoffs?:    ( 51 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

UTA:  Stockton . . . . . . . . .Malone ( 23.2 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins) / playoffs?:    ( 53 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

DEN: VanExel . . . . . . . . . . McDyess ( 20.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . .  ( team wins ) / playoffs?:   ( 44 ) / NO

VAN: Bibby . . . . . . . . . . . . Abdur-Rahim ( 20.5 ppg ) . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?:   ( 25 ) / NO

SEA: Payton . . . . . . . . . .Payton ( 23.1 ppg )  . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 44 ) / NO

CLE: Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . .Miller ( 15.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?     ( 30 ) / NO

TOR: Jackson . . . . . . . . . Carter ( 27.3 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . .( traded to NYK )

NYK: Jackson . . . . . . . . . Houston ( 18.7 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 48 ) / NO

MIL: Cassell . . . . . . . . . . . .Allen/Big Dog ( 22 ppg ) . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 52 ) / YES . . Lost in ECF in 7 games

NJN: Marbury . . . . . . .  Marbury ( 23.9 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 26 ) / NO

MIN: Brandon . . . . . . . . . .Garnett ( 22 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 47 ) / YES . .  Lost in 1st rd

CHA: Davis . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mashburn ( 20.1 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 46 ) / YES . . .Lost in 2nd rd in 7 games

DAL: Nash . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nowitzki ( 21.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 53 ) / YES . . . Lost in 2nd rd in 5 games

ORL: Armstrong . . . . . . . . McGrady ( 26.8 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . ( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 43 ) / YES . . . Lost in 1st rd

GSW: Blaylock . . . . . . . . . Jamison ( 24.9 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?    ( 17 ) / NO

MIA: Hardaway . . . . . . . . .E. Jones ( 17.4 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 50 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

IND: Best/Rose . . . . . . . Rose ( 20.5 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 41 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

POR: Stoudamire . . . . . . Wallace ( 19.2 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 50 ) / YES . . Lost in 1st rd

LAC: McInnis . . . . . . . . . . Odom ( 17.2 ppg ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .( team wins ) / playoffs?   ( 31 ) / NO

 

 

Thoughts?

Doesn't Dennis lead our team in Scoring right now.  Isn' t his stats are about on par with Marbury's from 2001?  Didn't Marbury play Isoball?  Doesn't Dennis play Isoball?  Are we the worst team in the league?  Thoughts?

[AHF]

Our style of play doesn't resemble anything a Marbury led team ever ran.  There is plenty of room to criticize Dennis but calling him a poor man's Marbury or saying they similarly dominated the offense with their ISO play isn't right.  It is super easy to see in how the team moves the ball that it isn't bottlenecking for the Hawks like it did for the Nets or Knicks under Marbury.

[Diesel]

16 hours ago, AHF said:

Our style of play doesn't resemble anything a Marbury led team ever ran.  There is plenty of room to criticize Dennis but calling him a poor man's Marbury or saying they similarly dominated the offense with their ISO play isn't right.  It is super easy to see in how the team moves the ball that it isn't bottlenecking for the Hawks like it did for the Nets or Knicks under Marbury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5riV_IG84oI

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5riV_IG84oI

That is not like watching any Hawks team in the Bud era, including the last two years.  If you wanted to show Steph could score, I already said I thought he was a better scorer than Dennis.  He had some big scoring games.  That was his high for the season so of course made for some nice highlights.

(The Nets ranked 26th in assists that season).

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

That is not like watching any Hawks team in the Bud era, including the last two years.  If you wanted to show Steph could score, I already said I thought he was a better scorer than Dennis.  He had some big scoring games.  That was his high for the season so of course made for some nice highlights.

(The Nets ranked 26th in assists that season).

When you watch how Dennis plays THIS YEAR, it looks a lot like the Steph of those years.   I know what Budball looks like.  Dennis is not playing Budball. 

[Ekyo]

yet, the "bud" in "budball" seems pretty pleased with the way he is playing. so ?!?

maybe you should call it dieselball whatever you wish the hawks to play like.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

When you watch how Dennis plays THIS YEAR, it looks a lot like the Steph of those years.   I know what Budball looks like.  Dennis is not playing Budball. 

They don't look alike and more importantly the amount of ballsharing on those teams are radically different.  You can find individual plays that look similar but they aren't similar.  And there is no need for them to be similar if you want to criticize Dennis.  He has his flaws.  Being like Marbury just isn't one of them or you would see it in the team numbers as well.