Worrisome......

[Vol4ever]

I usually watch all the games and never agreed with tanking.  I think the GM lied about tanking this year, it shows in piblic.  

 

That being said we don't use or have many legit bigs, seems to me Collins is getting further and further from the basket.  If we have the pick and get Bagley or Ayton will they be used?   I don't agree with Buds offense that doesn't that on purpose shoots threes the .majority of the time.  

If bud is unwilling to have some inside play that would use Ayton and Bagley's inside game, then he needs to be gone.

BTW, Collins has a excellent inside game but is not allowed to use it.  The only inside game we have is Dennis driving to the basket.

[Lurker]

Like I've said in other threads, Dennis deserves criticism for his play about 70% of the time this year. His effort has for the most part been completely appalling and like I continue to beat on, you're not getting much more than corn chips for him, which is why he might unfortunately be staying longer than this year.

Having said that and moving on to THIS subject, when no guard on the team is looking to try to set up Collins in the post, to the point in which he's had just 10 post ups all season, I'm sorry but yet again, this points a lot more to coaching and a complete overreaction by the franchise to what happened last year. Dwight didn't deserve to post up at all outside of a mismatch but it doesn't mean no other big gets to do it, especially one that actually has a good post game with good moves.

[deester11]

Too high a percentage of fault for Dennis but I digress. No pg is looking for Collins, not just Dennis.  Bud is 90% of the blame for that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, deester11 said:

Too high a percentage of fault for Dennis but I digress. No pg is looking for Collins, not just Dennis.  Bud is 90% of the blame for that.

Dennis is about the only one that looks for him.   He and Baze do look for Collins and find him for baskets at the rim.

( scroll all the way to the bottom of the page )

http://stats.nba.com/player/1628381/passes-dash/?sort=AST&dir=1

 

But with Dennis only averaging 0.8 assists per game to Collins, that tells you one of possibly 3 things. 

• Collins isn't converting on Dennis passes . . . which is not true.  He's shooting 60.4% when he receives a pass from Dennis
• Dennis doesn't look for Collins enough . . . which the stats say that he only passes to Collins 5 times a game

http://stats.nba.com/player/203471/passes-dash/?sort=PASS&dir=1

• Or, they're not playing enough together in the first place . . . . (( DING!!  DING!! DING!! )) . . . Collins and Dennis have played a total of 353 minutes together this season.   With the Hawks having played 38 games, that means that Collins and Dennis play a grand total of 
  • 9.3 minutes a game

That is UNACCEPTABLE . . . unless this is by design to keep the win total down.

And if that's the case, neither Dennis nor Collins can be fully judged by their play, or the team's play, this season.

 

[AHF]

Nice work digging that 9.3 out.  That is a bit shocking.  Wow.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Nice work digging that 9.3 out.  That is a bit shocking.  Wow.

It just doesn't make any sense for Collins to not be starting right now.  We're obviously not trying too hard to win games, from a strategy standpoint.  And even if Collins starts, it doesn't mean we'll win.  So the only conclusion I can come up with why Dennis and Collins don't play more together, is because the organization doesn't want those two to start developing chemistry with each other.  

And even if having Collins + Dennis on the floor is a negative defensively, that's still no reason to try to develop both of them offensively . . . unless the plan is NOT to do that.

The Post touches is the worst stat to me though. 10 touches all year?  That's insane.

[NBASupes]

Collins is not on the court due to his defense. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Collins is not on the court due to his defense. 

But the entire team can't play defense, especially the bigs.  If we're tanking, that's a good thing, right?

[Vol4ever]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Collins is not on the court due to his defense. 

 

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Collins is not on the court due to his defense. 

Haha.............nobody on the Hawks play defense.  

[deester11]

57 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But the entire team can't play defense, especially the bigs.  If we're tanking, that's a good thing, right?

This is as right at it gets.  The insanity of trying to pin stupid ish on Dennis is beyond stupid.  He's got enough issues but haters gonna hate no matter what.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But the entire team can't play defense, especially the bigs.  If we're tanking, that's a good thing, right?

The bigs do play D, they just can't play Bud's level of responsibility on D. But they can play D. Collins can't play D period. There is a difference. Bud don't mind Collins playing bad D. Tim did but Bud wants you to play within his system defensively. If this wasn't such a bad team, Collins probably would be in the D-League. His defense is really bad. He doesn't understand much in terms of concepts. I am more impressed with all of the freshmen in college like Bagley, Bamba, and Ayton in terms of concepts than Collins at Wake and honestly, I think Collins is worse in the NBA defensively than at Wake. Maybe I see it differently. But I see why Bazemore has value for this squad other than tank commanding. He understands concepts extremely well as well as angles. He just struggles and knowing his limitations while shows with his decision making. 

[DBac]

7 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Dennis is about the only one that looks for him.   He and Baze do look for Collins and find him for baskets at the rim.

( scroll all the way to the bottom of the page )

http://stats.nba.com/player/1628381/passes-dash/?sort=AST&dir=1

 

But with Dennis only averaging 0.8 assists per game to Collins, that tells you one of possibly 3 things. 

• Collins isn't converting on Dennis passes . . . which is not true.  He's shooting 60.4% when he receives a pass from Dennis
• Dennis doesn't look for Collins enough . . . which the stats say that he only passes to Collins 5 times a game

http://stats.nba.com/player/203471/passes-dash/?sort=PASS&dir=1

• Or, they're not playing enough together in the first place . . . . (( DING!!  DING!! DING!! )) . . . Collins and Dennis have played a total of 353 minutes together this season.   With the Hawks having played 38 games, that means that Collins and Dennis play a grand total of 
  • 9.3 minutes a game

That is UNACCEPTABLE . . . unless this is by design to keep the win total down.

And if that's the case, neither Dennis nor Collins can be fully judged by their play, or the team's play, this season.

 

Am I having a math brain fart, or does that not account for Dennis and Collins both missing games due to injury? And factor in that Collins is playing with the second unit so it makes sense that he isn't with Dennis a lot. I did a quick count and they've played 29 games together, so it's about 12.2 minutes a game, where Collins only plays 23 minutes a game.

And I wager that a lot of those 5 touches are Dennis passing to Collins with the intent of getting the ball right back. Although recently I feel Dennis has gotten better at feeding both Collins and Plumlee with lobs.

But yeah to me it's clear that Bud wants Collins to work on the little things. If you tell him to play like  'the guy' when we're still trying to find 'the guy' in the draft, then what's he gonna fall back on? It's easy to put up stats on a bad team but we're better off if he figures out how to contribute to winning (defense, screens, passing.. all things that Collins has improved on since Wake IMO). All that said... it's frustrating. I wanna see this dude getting ROY love because it's clear that he's a good player but I'm hopeful that this is better for him longterm.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, DBac said:

Am I having a math brain fart, or does that not account for Dennis and Collins both missing games due to injury? And factor in that Collins is playing with the second unit so it makes sense that he isn't with Dennis a lot. I did a quick count and they've played 29 games together, so it's about 12.2 minutes a game, where Collins only plays 23 minutes a game.

And I wager that a lot of those 5 touches are Dennis passing to Collins with the intent of getting the ball right back. Although recently I feel Dennis has gotten better at feeding both Collins and Plumlee with lobs.

But yeah to me it's clear that Bud wants Collins to work on the little things. If you tell him to play like  'the guy' when we're still trying to find 'the guy' in the draft, then what's he gonna fall back on? It's easy to put up stats on a bad team but we're better off if he figures out how to contribute to winning (defense, screens, passing.. all things that Collins has improved on since Wake IMO). All that said... it's frustrating. I wanna see this dude getting ROY love because it's clear that he's a good player but I'm hopeful that this is better for him longterm.

I'll acknowledge that your adjustments are probably correct.  I didn't take into account the games missed.

Still, the issue is that your best PG and your best big man are only playing 1/4 of the game together. With Collins not in the starting lineup, there's no way a guy like Dennis can possibly make him a better player.

There is very little offensive development taking place with Collins, that we can see on the court. He's not getting the ball in the post.  He's not getting set plays ran for him outside of the pick and roll. And he's not playing in crunch time at the end of games.

He's being told to play defense, set picks in the pick and roll, and battle for offensive rebounds.  He may legit be the best offensive player on the team, but I guess we won't even get to see glimpses of this until 2020.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

 

On 1/6/2018 at 10:02 AM, Vol4ever said:

I usually watch all the games and never agreed with tanking.  I think the GM lied about tanking this year, it shows in piblic.  

 

That being said we don't use or have many legit bigs, seems to me Collins is getting further and further from the basket.  If we have the pick and get Bagley or Ayton will they be used?   I don't agree with Buds offense that doesn't that on purpose shoots threes the .majority of the time.  

If bud is unwilling to have some inside play that would use Ayton and Bagley's inside game, then he needs to be gone.

BTW, Collins has a excellent inside game but is not allowed to use it.  The only inside game we have is Dennis driving to the basket.

Dwight got shipped out because he's all interior when it comes to offense... This is the biggest difference between Pop and Bud... Pop accommodates for the players he has.  Bud forces he's playbook onto his players.  Proof is Utah Milsap vs. Atlanta Milsap.

[AHF]

52 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

 

Dwight got shipped out because he's all interior when it comes to offense... This is the biggest difference between Pop and Bud... Pop accommodates for the players he has.  Bud forces he's playbook onto his players.  Proof is Utah Milsap vs. Atlanta Milsap.

I'm not sure the difference is that stark.  With Sap, I'd find it hard to argue he has played better anywhere in his career than he did in Atlanta.

With Dwight, I don't know what Pop would do with him but I am pretty sure he would never agree to have Dwight on his roster.  The Spurs have had more big men with a jumper than without over the years and the few who could only play close to the basket never were important parts of the offensive scheme - they were there for defense, cleanup and rebounding.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

I'm not sure the difference is that stark.  With Sap, I'd find it hard to argue he has played better anywhere in his career than he did in Atlanta.

With Dwight, I don't know what Pop would do with him but I am pretty sure he would never agree to have Dwight on his roster.  The Spurs have had more big men with a jumper than without over the years and the few who could only play close to the basket never were important parts of the offensive scheme - they were there for defense, cleanup and rebounding.

Yes, the Spurs drafted players to fit their scheme, but Pop never forced Duncan to play away from the basket.  He played his guys to the best of their abilities.  Bud has Dedmon taking threes and trying to get Collins to develop a jumper... This is not who these guys are.  Just let Collins be a menace around the basket and snag rebounds,

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

Yes, the Spurs drafted players to fit their scheme, but Pop never forced Duncan to play away from the basket.  He played his guys to the best of their abilities.  Bud has Dedmon taking threes and trying to get Collins to develop a jumper... This is not who these guys are.  Just let Collins be a menace around the basket and snag rebounds,

I guess it depends on what is meant by away from the basket.  Collins does way more of his scoring at the basket today than Duncan ever did.  Duncan always did a lot of face up jumpers (that bank shot was money).  He shot within 3 feet of the basket only a little over 30% for his career whereas Collins is shooting 65% of his FGA from that range to date.  As a rookie, Duncan only shot 25% of his shots within 3 feet of the basket.

[Peoriabird]

Wasn't Dwight working on 3's last summer before being traded? I think that was a Bud thing.

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Wasn't Dwight working on 3's last summer before being traded? I think that was a Bud thing.

He was working on them this summer after being traded.  It is a Dwight enjoying playing around for the camera thing.  

[nathan2331]

Even though don't like watching it, having our bigs shoot 3's makes them a lot more valuable. I don't know where Dedmon's average will settle by the end of the season, but if he stays around 40% he could potentially sign for twice as much as he's currently making. Considering this season is a throwaway, we might as well use the time to expand guys skillsets. That doesn't excuse Collins’ utilization of course.