Worrisome......

[Vol4ever]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

I guess it depends on what is meant by away from the basket.  Collins does way more of his scoring at the basket today than Duncan ever did.  Duncan always did a lot of face up jumpers (that bank shot was money).  He shot within 3 feet of the basket only a little over 30% for his career whereas Collins is shooting 65% of his FGA from that range to date.  As a rookie, Duncan only shot 25% of his shots within 3 feet of the basket.

How about David Robinson?   All inside.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

How about David Robinson?   All inside.

Give it up....Bud is God around here!

[DBac]

Is using bigs as a floor spacer really being made into a Bud thing? lol ever since around the time that Chris Bosh went to Miami, big men started shooting more threes than ever. Look at Boogie, AD, Kevin Love etc. and see how their 3 point attempts just exploded. And new guys like Porzingis, KAT, Embiid, Turner have come out the gate firing. That is league wide.

 

Bosh and Love were both animals on their own teams. Became third options and primarily floor spacers when they got on a championship team.

[AHF]

13 hours ago, Vol4ever said:

How about David Robinson?   All inside.

He wasn't all inside (roughly 50% inside depending on the season) but Pops immediately shifted more of the offense away from Robinson and to Duncan.

Duncan's rookie year was Pop's first year as coach and during that season Robinson led the team in scoring and shot nearly the same number of times per game as Duncan (15.7 FGA and 14.6 FGA).  In Pops second full year coaching the team, the role of the post play of Robinson was radically reduced dropping down to 10.8 FGA.  Here is the % of shots taken by Robinson compared to the more perimeter oriented Duncan under Pops from his second full season as coach to his sixth full season:

64%

74%

60%

47%

38%

You can see Robinson and his post game started out as basically an equal partner to Duncan, then diminished pretty consistently into a 2nd, 3rd and lower option.  Age was certainly a factor but the practical effect was to make post play  a smaller and smaller part of the team's offensive strategy and that has only continued to be the trend in San Antonio over time.

Today you have 11 people on San Antonio's roster who have shot the ball 6 or more times per game.  Pau Gasol ranks 8th in the % of his shots that come in the 0-3 foot range and LeMarcus Aldridge ranks 6th.  Ranks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 belong to guards and wings.  This should tell you how Pops wants his teams playing - guards and wings drive to the hoop to generate the vast majority of the team's close shots and bigs spend most of their time popping jumpers and setting screens.

[NBASupes]

Collins is a center in a PF body. Scouts were right about him in that regard. His talent is really good nonetheless but that said, he is not defensive minded center. He's a scorer who excels at the PnR. He rebounds extremely well.

Edited January 10, 2018 by NBASupes

[nathan2331]

Collins is a center in a PF body. Scouts were right about him in that regard. His talent is really good nonetheless but that said, he is not defensive minded center. He's a scorer who excels at the PnR. He rebounds extremely well.

Why is he a center and not a PF? I agree he's played as advertised from college, but I see his long-term future at PF, if the Hawks want to get the most out of him. The biggest and best centers in the league will always have a size advantage on him, and I don't think he'll have a mobility advantage when centers these days move as well as guards. Watching him so far, he's capable of playing minutes at C and being productive but I'd much rather have him at PF, even with the spacing concerns.

 

I'm not too critical of the offense given the circumstances, but imo we take too many threes and we don't have a consistent threat to score inside outside of Schröder. That's obvious of course, but Collins in scoring in the post would do a lot more than Cavanaugh shooting jumpers. I don't know how Bud sees things, but I don't want us to miss out on Ayton/Bagley/Bamba just because the GM wants a perimeter scorer. That's cool for the Warriors but it works great for them when they've got two of the best shooters in the NBA. I think we'd be better off trying to form a tandem with a big and Collins in the post and force teams to guard the paint which could then open up the 3 point shot. Bigs shooting jumpers to me is only very effective when you've got guys like Curry and LeBron who can break down any defense. I don't think we can get that in this draft, but we can get guys who can potentially dominate in the paint.

[NBASupes]

19 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Why is he a center and not a PF? I agree he's played as advertised from college, but I see his long-term future at PF, if the Hawks want to get the most out of him. The biggest and best centers in the league will always have a size advantage on him, and I don't think he'll have a mobility advantage when centers these days move as well as guards. Watching him so far, he's capable of playing minutes at C and being productive but I'd much rather have him at PF, even with the spacing concerns.

 

I'm not too critical of the offense given the circumstances, but imo we take too many threes and we don't have a consistent threat to score inside outside of Schröder. That's obvious of course, but Collins in scoring in the post would do a lot more than Cavanaugh shooting jumpers. I don't know how Bud sees things, but I don't want us to miss out on Ayton/Bagley/Bamba just because the GM wants a perimeter scorer. That's cool for the Warriors but it works great for them when they've got two of the best shooters in the NBA. I think we'd be better off trying to form a tandem with a big and Collins in the post and force teams to guard the paint which could then open up the 3 point shot. Bigs shooting jumpers to me is only very effective when you've got guys like Curry and LeBron who can break down any defense. I don't think we can get that in this draft, but we can get guys who can potentially dominate in the paint.

He's a 90s PF. The 2000s PF revolutionized the position where they had to have a lot of offensive versatility. PF today is an position where they have a lot of offensive responsibility. In the 90s, it was like SG in the 80s before Jordan. They had a singular role. Shoot, play smart defense, don't be risk takers like the SFs and shoot often. 

 

90s PF was a position with rebounding and toughness. It wasn't the center. They wasn't the PG in the paint and they just needed to set good screens and do the dirty work. Kemp came in with that prototype and Collins is like that. Today PF is nothing like that and due to zone defense and smarter  schemes, the Kemp types are centers these days. The issue reigns. How can you build around it. The best way is to get a center with center size who plays like a PF, ala Sheed. That's the best way to be frank. 

He's a tough fit for a winning team. 

[nathan2331]

 

 

He's a 90s PF. The 2000s PF revolutionized the position where they had to have a lot of offensive versatility. PF today is an position where they have a lot of offensive responsibility. In the 90s, it was like SG in the 80s before Jordan. They had a singular role. Shoot, play smart defense, don't be risk takers like the SFs and shoot often. 

 

90s PF was a position with rebounding and toughness. It wasn't the center. They wasn't the PG in the paint and they just needed to set good screens and do the dirty work. Kemp came in with that prototype and Collins is like that. Today PF is nothing like that and due to zone defense and smarter  schemes, the Kemp types are centers these days. The issue reigns. How can you build around it. The best way is to get a center with center size who plays like a PF, ala Sheed. That's the best way to be frank. 

He's a tough fit for a winning team. 

 

Ayton would fit right next to Collins then. Ayton plays like his name is Ryan Anderson half the time. The defense would be awful at first, but I think Ayton and Collins could potentially be a dominant pairing inside. Ayton is as athletic as any big that's come out recently, and while I don't think he puts it to great use on defense, his rebounding at least tells me he's not completely soft.

 

On offense though I think Ayton can come in and get 20 a night, he's got a lot of tools he can use. Ideally Schröder would be a much better 3 point shooter that could provide spacing, but I don't think you need more than 3 guys behind the arc anyways.

 

I know the NBA is perimeter oriented league now, but I still think post scoring and get points in the paint can be an asset worth building around, if that's what your personnel suits best. Collins using this season to work on his jump shot will pay dividends in the future, but I don't think we should leave him at center long-term just because he lacks a good perimeter game. Guys like Bosh and Love are less effective when they turn into jump shooters. It works because LeBron is LeBron, but we don't have and probably won't get playmakers of that level anytime soon so we should stick to what we can do.

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

Ayton would fit right next to Collins then. Ayton plays like his name is Ryan Anderson half the time. The defense would be awful at first, but I think Ayton and Collins could potentially be a dominant pairing inside. Ayton is as athletic as any big that's come out recently, and while I don't think he puts it to great use on defense, his rebounding at least tells me he's not completely soft.

 

On offense though I think Ayton can come in and get 20 a night, he's got a lot of tools he can use. Ideally Schröder would be a much better 3 point shooter that could provide spacing, but I don't think you need more than 3 guys behind the arc anyways.

 

I know the NBA is perimeter oriented league now, but I still think post scoring and get points in the paint can be an asset worth building around, if that's what your personnel suits best. Collins using this season to work on his jump shot will pay dividends in the future, but I don't think we should leave him at center long-term just because he lacks a good perimeter game. Guys like Bosh and Love are less effective when they turn into jump shooters. It works because LeBron is LeBron, but we don't have and probably won't get playmakers of that level anytime soon so we should stick to what we can do.

He might be the best fit next to Collins but is Ayton the best fit in Buds system is the question defensively speaking 

[NBASupes]

The problem is personnel. Bamba is the only fit that makes some sense and even he would have to come off the bench in year 1. 

Collins is an undersized center who becomes expendable if Bagley is drafted. 

Dennis doesn't fit with Doncic. Dennis is expendable. 

Bamba can fit Collins but Bamba needs more development. Dedmon needs to start.

Porter Jr. Replaces Prince. That is a no go since Prince is the most solid piece we got.

Ayton fits the personnel the best by far but does he fit the system?

Nonetheless, these are good problems to have. 

[benhillboy]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The problem is personnel. Bamba is the only fit that makes some sense and even he would have to come off the bench in year 1. 

Collins is an undersized center who becomes expendable if Bagley is drafted. 

Dennis doesn't fit with Doncic. Dennis is expendable. 

Bamba can fit Collins but Bamba needs more development. Dedmon needs to start.

Porter Jr. Replaces Prince. That is a no go since Prince is the most solid piece we got.

Ayton fits the personnel the best by far but does he fit the system?

Nonetheless, these are good problems to have. 

Why do you think Prince is “solid?”

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, benhillboy said:

Why do you think Prince is “solid?”

Long term. In this role, he's in over his head

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Why do you think Prince is “solid?”

Prince is definitely a useful shooter

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Prince is definitely a useful shooter

He is good right at the rim and from 3pt range.  He is one of the worst shooters in the entire league on mid-range jumpers, just absolutely brutal so far this season from 3-23 feet.

38.5% from 3-10 feet

25% from 10-16 feet

21.9% from 16-<3pt

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is good right at the rim and from 3pt range.  He is one of the worst shooters in the entire league on mid-range jumpers, just absolutely brutal so far this season from 3-23 feet.

38.5% from 3-10 feet

25% from 10-16 feet

21.9% from 16-<3pt

With more effective talent, Prince effectiveness will improve. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by NBASupes

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

With more effective talent, Prince effectiveness will improve. 

His 3pt% indicates he can do a lot better on those shots.  I think most of the 3's are open and many more of the midrange shots are forced.

[nathan2331]

 

 

The problem is personnel. Bamba is the only fit that makes some sense and even he would have to come off the bench in year 1. 

Collins is an undersized center who becomes expendable if Bagley is drafted. 

Dennis doesn't fit with Doncic. Dennis is expendable. 

Bamba can fit Collins but Bamba needs more development. Dedmon needs to start.

Porter Jr. Replaces Prince. That is a no go since Prince is the most solid piece we got.

Ayton fits the personnel the best by far but does he fit the system?

Nonetheless, these are good problems to have. 

 

How does Bamba fit, but Ayton not fit the system? Ayton has the mobility to switch whatever matchup he has to in the NBA. When I watch him at least it seems like he doesn't know where he should be sometimes and other times he's makes the wrong decision. But with proper coaching I think he can become the type of defender Horford sas where he's covering up other players deficiencies. Which I would think I

is what we'll need from our center.

 

That's going to take time, but he has that potential. Bamba probably brings most of that defensive ability day 1, but I don't think he'll become a high volume offensive option, not until he bulks up or becomes a sharpshooter out of nowhere. What do you see with Bamba that he can develop that Ayton can't with time?

[Diesel]

15 hours ago, DBac said:

Is using bigs as a floor spacer really being made into a Bud thing? lol ever since around the time that Chris Bosh went to Miami, big men started shooting more threes than ever. Look at Boogie, AD, Kevin Love etc. and see how their 3 point attempts just exploded. And new guys like Porzingis, KAT, Embiid, Turner have come out the gate firing. That is league wide.

 

Bosh and Love were both animals on their own teams. Became third options and primarily floor spacers when they got on a championship team.

Dirk in Dallas and McDyess in Denver. 

There have always been stretch 4s (Jack Sikma, Larry Johnson, Antwan Jamsion, Sam Perkins, Kukoc, Marshall, Sabonis(5)) .  The game just always circles back to the dominant Bigs. 

 

[nathan2331]

 

His 3pt% indicates he can do a lot better on those shots.  I think most of the 3's are open and many more of the midrange shots are forced.

 

 

He'd do well to find more ways to get his shot off in the midrange considering he doesn't get past his defenders too much whenever he drives. TJ Warren was killing him inside the arc even though I thought Prince defended him decently enough. If this is the game he wants to stick with he's got to find more ways to get his shot off quickly, because he doesn't have the athleticism to beat his man off the dribble with any consistentcy.

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

How does Bamba fit, but Ayton not fit the system? Ayton has the mobility to switch whatever matchup he has to in the NBA. When I watch him at least it seems like he doesn't know where he should be sometimes and other times he's makes the wrong decision. But with proper coaching I think he can become the type of defender Horford sas where he's covering up other players deficiencies. Which I would think I

is what we'll need from our center.

 

That's going to take time, but he has that potential. Bamba probably brings most of that defensive ability day 1, but I don't think he'll become a high volume offensive option, not until he bulks up or becomes a sharpshooter out of nowhere. What do you see with Bamba that he can develop that Ayton can't with time?

Defense. Bamba defense fits Bud's system like a glove. He will only get better with more development. 

Ayton does have the mobility to switch but Ayton hands are constantly down till more recent games. His off ball defense can lull and his awareness on D come and goes especially for rim protection. He plays defense like a finesse PF when he has elite center tools. It's insane. That said, his man and post D is very good. Bamba post D is pretty weak. He needs to get stronger. 

I think both will be WIPs on defense. I see both of their offense translating more than their defense. Defensively, Ayton is kinda like Towns. He really is going to have to develop his off the ball D. Offensively, Ayton is kinda like Towns again. Maybe better in the paint out of college and not a blackhole like Towns is. 

That said, Ayton most similar comparison to someone in the NBA right now is Towns. Ayton has a better body, mobility, frame, and speed when both were in college. 

Although that's NOT his NBA comparison. That's who he's most similar too. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by NBASupes