Wurider05 Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 If it becomes obvious that certain lottery bound teams are blatantly tanking what should our response be? Do you go in the gutter with them or do we remain respectable? Getting rid of our vets might do the trick. I am on the fence about the whole lottery thing myself but if we are going to stink we might as well do it properly!! We are kind of in a catch 2 because if our players started coming up hurt and missing games then it is going to make our partnership with Emory Sports Medicine and the new facility look like sh*t!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JTB Posted January 18, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Can’t believe I’m saying this but we are already in it....we should simply throw the games. Bud puts in one of those weird ass lineups to end the game with Dennis at SF or some shit...just lose ! As long as we get the #1 or #2 draft pick in the lottery this won’t be a wasted season. If we somehow get pick number 4 or 5, Schlenk is doomed on these boards. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnice Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Get kadeem Hardison from the movie the 6th man, but alter shots and cause turnovers against the Hawks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenHawking Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 We just have to get rid of all the vets. Especially losing Dedmon would benefit the tank. And that's the difficult part with tanking. You got those vets who look great but you can't hold on to them in the long run because they hurt the tank. Heres a ranking of who's most important for winning games and consequently the best trade object for the tank(only considering players who are likely to be traded): 1.Dedmon (can win us 10+games) 2.Baze (can win us 5+games) 3.Ilyasova (can win us 3+games) 4.Belinelli (can win us 2+games) 5.Babbitt (can win us 1+games) Thats how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazer Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Time to trade vets for picks. Gaze and Ilyasovavichkovchev are peaking at exactly the right time. I’d actually like Deadmon Walking to hang around for the Hawks future, seems a perfect fit for this system. But if he can fetch something nice I suppose he’s gone too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 So let me get this strait...Many did not want to go the Philadelphia route and get so young that it would take a long time to develop draft pick thus the team would be bad for years. Now that we have a young core of vets that know how to play together and would be very instrumental in helping the team quickly recover from this down season, y'all want them all gone for a lottery ticket. A ticket that everyone is convinced will deliver. Wonder what would happen is the board's 2 favorite draft targets turned out to be no different than say a John Collins or worst a non difference maker? Anyway, the name of the game is developing players and team Chemistry. The Hawks will get a lottery pick which according to AHF's research is good enough. His research didn't show that you needed the top pick or even a top 5 pick. It showed that you needed a lottery pick which we are guaranteed. Lastly, I think that y'all are flat out wrong about Bazemore...He just happened to be a late bloomer and it appears as though he is finally becoming a polished player. Y'all are also going to be wrong about Dennis. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High5 Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 I don't think we can compete with the Magic or Kings if they flip the switch. We're passing them already. I think we're safe from the rest unless Memphis finally gets rid of Gasol (assuming we do make trades as we should). I'm adjusting my expectations to at least 3rd and hoping the balls bounce our way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted January 18, 2018 Moderators Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Peoriabird said: So let me get this strait...Many did not want to go the Philadelphia route and get so young that it would take a long time to develop draft pick thus the team would be bad for years. Now that we have a young core of vets that know how to play together and would be very instrumental in helping the team quickly recover from this down season, y'all want them all gone for a lottery ticket. A ticket that everyone is convinced will deliver. Wonder what would happen is the board's 2 favorite draft targets turned out to be no different than say a John Collins or worst a non difference maker? Anyway, the name of the game is developing players and team Chemistry. The Hawks will get a lottery pick which according to AHF's research is good enough. His research didn't show that you needed the top pick or even a top 5 pick. It showed that you needed a lottery pick which we are guaranteed. Lastly, I think that y'all are flat out wrong about Bazemore...He just happened to be a late bloomer and it appears as though he is finally becoming a polished player. Y'all are also going to be wrong about Dennis. AHF doesn't know what research this is. It is absolutely clear that your odds of getting an impact player decrease the farther you move down in the draft - both within the lottery and especially as you get beyond it. Maybe the research was pointing out that you can't win without hitting a homerun in the lottery? I agree with that. The corollary that does along with that is that the odds of hitting a homerun increase the higher you are in the draft. For this draft, I would really, really prefer to be in the top 3. Seems hard to totally whiff in that range. Very promising young players beyond that but we could entirely whiff if we finish with like the 3rd worst record and end up betting bumped to the #6 pick. (Not saying the 6 couldn't produce that star -- more a matter of how low the floor starts getting). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, AHF said: AHF doesn't know what research this is. It is absolutely clear that your odds of getting an impact player decrease the farther you move down in the draft - both within the lottery and especially as you get beyond it. Maybe the research was pointing out that you can't win without hitting a homerun in the lottery? I agree with that. The corollary that does along with that is that the odds of hitting a homerun increase the higher you are in the draft. For this draft, I would really, really prefer to be in the top 3. Seems hard to totally whiff in that range. Very promising young players beyond that but we could entirely whiff if we finish with like the 3rd worst record and end up betting bumped to the #6 pick. (Not saying the 6 couldn't produce that star -- more a matter of how low the floor starts getting). The point is that there are Dirks that go 7th in the draft and Kobes that go 13th and there are can't miss prospects like lebron that go 1st but this draft class doesn't appear to have a Lebron in it. So I don't know why this board has suddenly developed a lottery mentality! Incidentally Lebron has on been successful 3 out of 8 times in the Championship and will likely not win another championship if you are using Championship as a measure. The more important thing that is happening to the Hawks is player development especially with Collins, Bazemore and Dennis. The team is starting to play more cohesively and looking less like a team that is in need of a major overhaul but rather a team that could be helped with an infusion of talent...Something a lottery pick can provide as well as the 2 other 1st round pick. Y'all are looking to sell the farm for 1 player that you all think is Lebron but they aren't. Every single top players haves some serious flaws to overcome to be even a productive NBA player let alone a superstar...Just ask Wiggins about that. If that is the case...Is the #1 pick that much more valuable than pick #10? We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted January 18, 2018 Moderators Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 You can find an All-Star in the second round but first round picks are that much more valuable because the odds are that much better. And, yes, historically the #1 overall pick is an absolute #$*#ton more valuable than the #10 pick -- even though there will be oddball years when the player picked at #10, etc. is better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 22 minutes ago, AHF said: You can find an All-Star in the second round but first round picks are that much more valuable because the odds are that much better. And, yes, historically the #1 overall pick is an absolute #$*#ton more valuable than the #10 pick -- even though there will be oddball years when the player picked at #10, etc. is better. only 5 championship players have been drafted #1 over all over the last 30 years 1987 San Antonio Spurs David Robinson^* USA Center Navy 24.3 12.0 2.0 [69] 1988 Los Angeles Clippers Danny Manning^ USA Forward Kansas 16.7 6.6 3.1 [70] 1989 Sacramento Kings Pervis Ellison USA Center Louisville 8.0 5.8 1.9 [71] 1990 New Jersey Nets Derrick Coleman^ USA Forward/Center Syracuse 18.4 10.3 2.2 [72] 1991 Charlotte Hornets Larry Johnson^ USA Forward UNLV 19.2 11.0 3.6 [73] 1992 Orlando Magic Shaquille O'Neal^* USA Center LSU 23.4 13.9 1.9 [74] 1993 Orlando Magic Chris Webber^ USA Forward Michigan 17.5 9.1 3.6 [75] 1994 Milwaukee Bucks Glenn Robinson^ USA Forward Purdue 21.9 6.4 2.5 [76] 1995 Golden State Warriors Joe Smith USA Forward Maryland 15.3 8.7 1.0 [77] 1996 Philadelphia 76ers Allen Iverson^* USA Guard Georgetown 23.5 4.1 7.5 [78] 1997 San Antonio Spurs Tim Duncan^ USA[v] Forward/Center Wake Forest 21.1 11.9 2.7 [80] 1998 Los Angeles Clippers Michael Olowokandi NGA Center Pacific 8.9 7.9 0.6 [81] 1999 Chicago Bulls Elton Brand^[w] USA Forward Duke 20.1 10.0 1.9 [83] 2000 New Jersey Nets Kenyon Martin^ USA Forward Cincinnati 12.0 7.4 1.9 [84] 2001 Washington Wizards Kwame Brown USA Center Glynn Academy HS (Brunswick, Georgia) 4.5 3.5 0.8 [85] 2002 Houston Rockets Yao Ming^* CHN Center Shanghai Sharks (China) 13.5 8.2 1.7 [86] 2003 Cleveland Cavaliers LeBron James^ USA Forward St. Vincent-St. Mary HS (Akron, Ohio) 20.9 5.5 5.9 [87] 2004 Orlando Magic Dwight Howard^ USA Center SACA (Atlanta) 12.0 10.0 0.9 [88] 2005 Milwaukee Bucks Andrew Bogut^ AUS Center Utah 9.4 7.0 2.3 [89] 2006 Toronto Raptors Andrea Bargnani ITA Forward/Center Benetton Treviso (Italy) 11.6 3.9 0.8 [90] 2007 Portland Trail Blazers Greg Oden[x] USA Center Ohio State 8.9 7.0 0.5 [92] 2008 Chicago Bulls Derrick Rose^ USA Guard Memphis 16.8 3.9 6.3 [93] 2009 Los Angeles Clippers Blake Griffin^[y] USA Forward Oklahoma 22.5 12.1 3.8 [95] 2010 Washington Wizards John Wall^ USA Guard Kentucky 16.4 4.6 8.3 [96] 2011 Cleveland Cavaliers Kyrie Irving^ USA[z] Guard Duke 18.5 3.7 5.4 [99] 2012 New Orleans Hornets Anthony Davis^ USA Forward/Center Kentucky 13.5 8.2 1.0 [100] 2013 Cleveland Cavaliers Anthony Bennett CAN Forward UNLV 4.2 3.0 0.3 [101] 2014 Cleveland Cavaliers Andrew Wiggins CAN Forward/Guard Kansas 16.9 4.6 2.1 [102] 2015 Minnesota Timberwolves Karl-Anthony Towns DOM[aa] Center Kentucky 18.3 10.4 2.0 [103] 2016 Philadelphia 76ers Ben Simmons AUS[ab] Forward LSU — — — [104] 2017 Chicago Bulls Markelle Fultz USA Gu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 4 players drafted 10th played on championship teams 2017 Zach Collins, Gonzaga – Sacramento Kings 2016 Thon Maker, Canada – Milwaukee Bucks 2015 Justise Winslow, Duke – Miami HEAT 2014 Elfrid Payton, Louisiana Layfayette – Philadelphia 76ers 2013 C.J. McCollum, Lehigh – Portland Trail Blazers 2012 Austin Rivers, UNC – New Orleans Hornets 2011 Jimmer Fredette, BYU – Milwaukee Bucks 2010 Paul George, Fresno State – Indiana Pacers 2000’s 2009 Brandon Jennings, Italy – Milwaukee Bucks 2008 Brook Lopez, Stanford – New Jersey Nets 2007 Spencer Hawes, Washington – Sacramento Kings 2006 Saer Sene, Senegal – Seattle Supersonics2005 Andrew Bynum, St. Joseph (NJ) HS – L.A. Lakers 2004 Luke Jackson, Oregon – Cleveland Cavaliers 2003 Jarvis Hayes, Georgia – Washington Wizards 2002 Caron Butler, Connecticut – Miami HEAT 2001 Joe Johnson, Arkansas – Boston Celtics 2000 Keyon Dooling, Missouri – Orlando Magic 1990’s 1999 Jason Terry, Arizona – Atlanta Hawks1998 Paul Pierce, Kansas – Boston Celtics 1997 Danny Fortson, Cincinnati – Milwaukee Bucks 1996 Erick Dampier, Mississippi State – Indiana Pacers 1995 Kurt Thomas, Texas Christian – Miami HEAT 1994 Eddie Jones, Temple – L.A. Lakers 1993 Lindsey Hunter, Jackson State – Detroit Pistons 1992 Adam Keefe, Stanford – Atlanta Hawks 1991 Brian Williams, Arizona – Orlando Magic 1990 Rumeal Robinson, Michigan – Atlanta Hawks 1980’s 1989 Pooh Richardson, UCLA – Minnesota Timberwolves 1988 Willie Anderson, Georgia – San Antonio Spurs1987 Horace Grant, Clemson – Chicago Bulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted January 18, 2018 Moderators Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Thank you for proving the point. Let's look at those players and see which ones were key to winning rings and which were replaceable role players: David Robinson - MVP, DPOY, 10x All-Star, 11x All-NBA, 7x All-NBA Defense Hakeem Olajuwon - MVP, Finals MVP, 2x DPOY, 12x All-NBA, 9x All-NBA Defense Shaq - MVP, 3x Finals MVP, 15x All-Star, 14x All-NBA, 3x All-NBA Defense Tim Duncan - 2x MVP, 3x Finals MVP, 15x All-Star, 15x All-NBA, 15x All-NBA Defense LeBron James - 4x MVP, 3x Finals MVP, 13x All-Star, 13x All-NBA, 7x All-NBA Defense Andrew Bynum, Horace Grant, Jason Terry Combined: No MVP, No Finals MVP, 2x All-Star, 1x All-NBA, 4x All-NBA Defense Paul Pierce: No MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 10x All-Star, 4x All-NBA, No All-NBA Defense #1 Picks Who Won Rings: 5 HOFers. 5 MVPs. They won a dozen championships as the best player on their team and have 10 Finals MVP awards. There are several more MVPs who were the best players on teams that made the finals that aren't on the list. #10 Picks Who Won Rings: 1 HOF. 0 MVPs. They did not win a single championship as the best player on their team but did scrape together one finals MVP. Not a single #10 pick on that list has ever come close to winning an MVP. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Correction I did restrict it to last 30 years. Olajuwan was not drafted in the last 30 drafts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted January 18, 2018 Moderators Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Peoriabird said: Correction I did restrict is to last 30 years. Olajuwan was not drafted in the last 30 drafts It just gets more lopsided if you keep going back with Hakeem, Magic, etc. Basic analysis doesn't change. The #10 guys were role players. The #1 guys were superstars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, AHF said: Thank you for proving the point. Let's look at those players and see which ones were key to winning rings and which were replaceable role players: David Robinson - MVP, DPOY, 10x All-Star, 11x All-NBA, 7x All-NBA Defense Hakeem Olajuwon - MVP, Finals MVP, 2x DPOY, 12x All-NBA, 9x All-NBA Defense Shaq - MVP, 3x Finals MVP, 15x All-Star, 14x All-NBA, 3x All-NBA Defense Tim Duncan - 2x MVP, 3x Finals MVP, 15x All-Star, 15x All-NBA, 15x All-NBA Defense LeBron James - 4x MVP, 3x Finals MVP, 13x All-Star, 13x All-NBA, 7x All-NBA Defense Andrew Bynum, Horace Grant, Jason Terry Combined: No MVP, No Finals MVP, 2x All-Star, 1x All-NBA, 4x All-NBA Defense Paul Pierce: No MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 10x All-Star, 4x All-NBA, No All-NBA Defense #1 Picks Who Won Rings: 5 HOFers. 5 MVPs. They won a dozen championships as the best player on their team and have 10 Finals MVP awards. There are several more MVPs who were the best players on teams that made the finals that aren't on the list. #10 Picks Who Won Rings: 1 HOF. 0 MVPs. They did not win a single championship as the best player on their team but did scrape together one finals MVP. Not a single #10 pick on that list has ever come close to winning an MVP. 4 over 30 years! pretty low yield and the players you mentioned were clear #1 over all draft picks. There are no David Robinsons, Tim Duncans, Shaqs, or Lebron James in this year's draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted January 18, 2018 Moderators Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said: 4 over 30 years! pretty low yield and the players you mentioned were clear #1 over all draft picks. There are no David Robinsons, Tim Duncans, Shaqs, or Lebron James in this year's draft. They won a full 12 championships over 30 or 40% of all championships won in that time and that doesn't even count rings won by previously drafted #1 picks like Hakeem. Pretending like one stud player who isn't at their level and 3 role players who were never the best player on a playoff team, let alone a championship one, is a joke. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, AHF said: They won a full 12 championships over 30 or 40% of all championships won in that time and that doesn't even count rings won by previously drafted #1 picks like Hakeem and Thomas. Its still 4 players out of 30 picks which is the point. 13% chance of getting that caliber of player. probably less when you don't have a consensus #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Plus a fella by the name of Jordan was drafted after Hakeem in the same draft and accomplished a tad bit more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted January 18, 2018 Moderators Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Just now, Peoriabird said: Its still 4 players out of 30 picks which is the point The point is how to win a ring. You better have an MVP caliber player as the best guy on your team. You've got a handful of #1 picks that won basically half the championships over the last 30 years. You've got other #1 picks who were MVPSs or the best player on teams that made the finals but lost (Dwight, AI, Rose, etc.). It isn't a question of whether your odds are great. No pick has great odds. The question is how to maximize your odds of getting impact players. The #1 pick is heads and shoulders above the #10. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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