To LeBron: Double standard is just not so!

[Buzzard]

There is no double standard as LeBron James stated in this article:

http://www.nba.com/article/2018/01/30/lebron-james-says-blake-griffin-trade-detroit-pistons-unfortunate#/

I think he is just missing the point on who is doing the hating when a top player bolts, it is the fans. The fans would do just as much or more if the owner took the team and bolted out of the city as well!

[AHF]

There is a bit of a double-standard but James made his own bed by teasing the Cleveland fan base and then announcing to them he was basically breaking up with them on national TV.  Getting mad at someone like Durant is where the double standard kicks in.  We blame Durant for ditching his team but don't hate on OKC in the same way when they trade a player.  I think there is a point to be made but LeBron is not the right guy to make it.

[Buzzard]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

There is a bit of a double-standard but James made his own bed by teasing the Cleveland fan base and then announcing to them he was basically breaking up with them on national TV.  Getting mad at someone like Durant is where the double standard kicks in.  We blame Durant for ditching his team but don't hate on OKC in the same way when they trade a player.  I think there is a point to be made but LeBron is not the right guy to make it.

I agree and also disagree to some extent. Getting mad at a team for ditching you is normal, which has a much bigger impact long term; but fans getting mad when a franchise player ditches them is normal also.  If a team where to trade a player like LeBron the backlash against them would be felt also. There is still a lot of hurtful feelings for trading Dominique 30 or more years ago.

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I agree and also disagree to some extent. Getting mad at a team for ditching you is normal, which has a much bigger impact long term; but fans getting mad when a franchise player ditches them is normal also.  If a team where to trade a player like LeBron the backlash against them would be felt also. There is still a lot of hurtful feelings for trading Dominique 30 or more years ago.

Teams aren't immune from fan backlash.  The Nique trade is exhibit A on that.  

I would just say most people don't call a team disloyal when a player gets traded but they do frequently blame the player for being disloyal if he walks.  The reason is obvious...the fans want whatever makes the team the best product so their interests usually (but not always) align with the team. 

If the team cuts someone who has disappointed the fans don't hate the team for being disloyal - they are on board because they think there is a better option to fill that roster spot.  If a player breaks out in an exciting way and the team deals him for an even better player, most of the fans can be excited because the team has improved.  If the player breaks out in an exciting way and then walks to go join a rival, the fans are furious because they were attached to that player and the team was hurt by their leaving.

[Buzzard]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

Teams aren't immune from fan backlash.  The Nique trade is exhibit A on that.  

I would just say most people don't call a team disloyal when a player gets traded but they do frequently blame the player for being disloyal if he walks.  The reason is obvious...the fans want whatever makes the team the best product so their interests usually (but not always) align with the team. 

If the team cuts someone who has disappointed the fans don't hate the team for being disloyal - they are on board because they think there is a better option to fill that roster spot.  If a player breaks out in an exciting way and the team deals him for an even better player, most of the fans can be excited because the team has improved.  If the player breaks out in an exciting way and then walks to go join a rival, the fans are furious because they were attached to that player and the team was hurt by their leaving.

It depends on the type of player; I am sure there are some Clip fans who are not very happy that they traded Blake.

Role players walk all the time and there is not much backlash. When a franchise player walks it hurts all the way around. I think Bron is just priming Cleveland for his move next season to be honest.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

21 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

It depends on the type of player; I am sure there are some Clip fans who are not very happy that they traded Blake.

Role players walk all the time and there is not much backlash. When a franchise player walks it hurts all the way around. I think Bron is just priming Cleveland for his move next season to be honest.

Ummm . . . our fan base did it.

When Al Horford walked on the Hawks, the fan base basically disowned him, and hate him to this day..

When Joe Johnson got traded, most in the fan base celebrated the move by ownership . . . and still acted like the dude left on his own, by booing him every time he came back to Atlanta for about 2 - 3 seasons.  The same goes for Dwight Howard.  He chose to come here.  The team trades him.  Most in the fan base liked the move, but supposedly hate Dwight now.

Fans are much more harsher when good players make decisions to supposedly better themselves, than when ownership make moves to supposedly better the team . .  even if it doesn't better the team short term.

[Buzzard]

51 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Ummm . . . our fan base did it.

When Al Horford walked on the Hawks, the fan base basically disowned him, and hate him to this day..

When Joe Johnson got traded, most in the fan base celebrated the move by ownership . . . and still acted like the dude left on his own, by booing him every time he came back to Atlanta for about 2 - 3 seasons.  The same goes for Dwight Howard.  He chose to come here.  The team trades him.  Most in the fan base liked the move, but supposedly hate Dwight now.

Fans are much more harsher when good players make decisions to supposedly better themselves, than when ownership make moves to supposedly better the team . .  even if it doesn't better the team short term.

I lot of that I agree with and a trade is viewed as getting something back. Even if it does not work out to better the team; most moves are viewed as that until proven otherwise.

The essence of this is: we may pull for our players along with our team; but at the end of the day true fans pull for the team even after the player is long gone.

Once a player leaves, he has went to another fan base. I don't know why anyone would expect something different. Despite what his ego may tell him, it is not the LeBron Cavaliers, it is the Cleveland Cavaliers.

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

I lot of that I agree with and a trade is viewed as getting something back. Even if it does not work out to better the team; most moves are viewed as that until proven otherwise.

The essence of this is: we may pull for our players along with our team; but at the end of the day true fans pull for the team even after the player is long gone.

Once a player leaves, he has went to another fan base. I don't know why anyone would expect something different. Despite what his ego may tell him, it is not the LeBron Cavaliers, it is the Cleveland Cavaliers.

 

I think this better articulates the perspective:

It is not the Cleveland LeBrons, it is the Cleveland Cavaliers. Players enjoy the other side of this so called double standard. Paul George is now cheered for in Oklahoma instead of being booed. Same for Big Al and Kyrie in Boston now.

Most players cannot have it both ways. Play for the enemy and be loved by another fan base. It is fan as in fanatic for a reason.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Buzzard

[AHF]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Ummm . . . our fan base did it.

When Al Horford walked on the Hawks, the fan base basically disowned him, and hate him to this day..

When Joe Johnson got traded, most in the fan base celebrated the move by ownership . . . and still acted like the dude left on his own, by booing him every time he came back to Atlanta for about 2 - 3 seasons.  The same goes for Dwight Howard.  He chose to come here.  The team trades him.  Most in the fan base liked the move, but supposedly hate Dwight now.

Fans are much more harsher when good players make decisions to supposedly better themselves, than when ownership make moves to supposedly better the team . .  even if it doesn't better the team short term.

Hurt the team, begged for years for a true C and ditched as soon as we got one, handled his departure with the grace of an olympic diver doing a belly flop and had his Dad and Sister in the press outright #$#*ing on the team.  Yeah, he didn't absolutely napalm things but he tore down his bridges on the way out.

I don't think fans should do anything but applaud Joe when he returns.  I'm more ambivalent about Dwight since he wasn't here long.  Did what he reasonably should have been expected to do but it didn't translate into the impact that fans hoped for.  Eh.

[Buzzard]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

Hurt the team, begged for years for a true C and ditched as soon as we got one, handled his departure with the grace of an olympic diver doing a belly flop and had his Dad and Sister in the press outright #$#*ing on the team.  Yeah, he didn't absolutely napalm things but he tore down his bridges on the way out.

I don't think fans should do anything but applaud Joe when he returns.  I'm more ambivalent about Dwight since he wasn't here long.  Did what he reasonably should have been expected to do but it didn't translate into the impact that fans hoped for.  Eh.

Along with the short stint here, Dwights other problem is he dished us twice before. Trade demand with us not being a selected team and then his FA move to Houston.

I agree also on JJ. He did all he could; and was a team leader in minutes per game and games played while he was here.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

All sides care for their own self-interests: ownership, players, fans.  Only one side gets called out on it.

[Buzzard]

7 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

All sides care for their own self-interests: ownership, players, fans.  Only one side gets called out on it.

But to expect a fan base to cheer for you when you play for another team is wrong on every level of competition I can think of. The player is trying to beat my team; why would I ever cheer for that?

[AHF]

44 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

All sides care for their own self-interests: ownership, players, fans.  Only one side gets called out on it.

Fans are pretty teflon but have zero real world influence.  Teams aren't immune to getting called out - fans let teams know when they don't like how management is running the show.  The example of the fact that Atlanta Hawks fans have been calling out the team for 25 years over Nique is a good example.  The Bulls management team got crapped on when they shoved Pippen and Jordan out the door.

But fans at the end of the day generally root for whatever is best for their team.  The Celtics and Isaiah Thomas are a good example.  Sacramento and Phoenix deservedly still get crapped on for having given him away for nothing.  The Celtic fan base is pretty solidly behind that Irving / Thomas trade now but the team got a mix of criticism from fans and the media for not being loyal to someone who gave what he had for the team and got traded while injured.  A mix of praise for taking advantage of another team's drama to upgrade a position.  If the new player proves better than the old one and the team is better, fans are going to let go of the criticism pretty quickly.  If the new guy pulls a Danny Manning and came over for a beloved player, the team will never stop hearing about it.

[MaceCase]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

But to expect a fan base to cheer for you when you play for another team is wrong on every level of competition I can think of. The player is trying to beat my team; why would I ever cheer for that?

Because of what they did for you and your team originally, maybe?  There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a player you rooted for to continue to do well, just that your team wins in the end.  What you're saying speaks to the fickle nature of fans:  root for a guy because he's one of "yours" and root against a guy because he's the "enemy", but that same "enemy" can now join the team you root for and now he's one of "yours" whereas whom you used to root for is now the "enemy". 

The issue is that the expectancy of loyalty lays only at the players' feet.  Players can make decisions based on their long-term personal/family well being and/or career achievement and get labeled as disloyal whereas fans can discard or grant allegiance however they see fit, and organizations can care about their bottom line.

57 minutes ago, AHF said:

Fans are pretty teflon but have zero real world influence.  Teams aren't immune to getting called out - fans let teams know when they don't like how management is running the show.  The example of the fact that Atlanta Hawks fans have been calling out the team for 25 years over Nique is a good example.  The Bulls management team got crapped on when they shoved Pippen and Jordan out the door.

But fans at the end of the day generally root for whatever is best for their team.  The Celtics and Isaiah Thomas are a good example.  Sacramento and Phoenix deservedly still get crapped on for having given him away for nothing.  The Celtic fan base is pretty solidly behind that Irving / Thomas trade now but the team got a mix of criticism from fans and the media for not being loyal to someone who gave what he had for the team and got traded while injured.  A mix of praise for taking advantage of another team's drama to upgrade a position.  If the new player proves better than the old one and the team is better, fans are going to let go of the criticism pretty quickly.  If the new guy pulls a Danny Manning and came over for a beloved player, the team will never stop hearing about it.

Yes, I agree that organizations do receive flack to a certain degree but this is also a further example of the fickle nature of fans.  Organizations are usually only booed when fans feel they are the immediate "losers" in a deal.  A big part of why the Nique trade is remembered till this day isn't just because a beloved player was moved.  Where the team was in the standings beforehand represented a good chance at a championship run and then Manning's subsequent summer defection only further exacerbated the situation.  Couple that with over 20 years without a player of that caliber, one truly worthy season, and of course, numerous management gaffes over different administrations and that gets looked back on as the genesis of it all.

Take another example though such as when Golden State traded fan favorite Monta Ellis for an injured Andrew Bogut. Their fans even viciously booed their brass in the middle of a honorary ceremony for that supposed egregious action.  Flash forward a year later when their playoff runs start and the beginning of a dynasty and it's barely a footnote in history and the management is loved and adored (even as they plot to get the hell out of dodge by moving cities). 

LeBron's, Durant's, Shaq's, Dwight's, etc's defections though, those still burn fresh in fan's minds.   

[Buzzard]

Fickle, fanatic, indecisive whatever label you want to use, it is just part of being a fan. I don't wish any player harm; but if he is not a Hawk, I am not cheering for him during the regular season.

My tendency in playoffs and championships, that my home Atlanta teams are not in, is to root for the underdog. Be it a player or team I feel sorry for. This year is a classic example of being torn. I like the Patriots because I want them to break all of the Steelers records; but feel sorry for the Eagles even though they beat us in the playoffs this season. And honestly I have never liked the Eagles.

I probably will not know who I will be pulling for until Super Bowl Sunday's kickoff when the emotion kicks in. Being fickle, on the fence, torn etc... is definitely a part of being an emotional fan that loves sports. So shoot me lol

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ask 50 fans who they are a fan of and I guarantee the majority of the fans will tell you the TEAM that they are a fan of.  Fans either root for their city or they root for their team... And if a player leaves and goes to another team, the fans have every right to call them a traitor.  You’re either for us or against us.  And the players are employees of these teams, so the organization should have the upper hand in the business.  Really the only fans that root on players and not the team are fans like the Germans on the Squawk that root on Schröder and Nowitzki.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a Hawks fan first, I don't give a f%$# about the name on the back of the jersey...

 

 

 

[MaceCase]

I don't feel that any of that is correct.  There are a considerable amount of fans of only certain players because after all you don't get labelled a super star due solely to local support.  There are also a considerably larger amount of "casual", "fair weather", or "bandwagon fans" that do not subscribe to any singular city or team.  Then sports and entertainment are not typical businesses, the players/performers are the product not employees.  Apple can brand whatever product they want and expect to sell, the NBA can't even brand the GLeague and expect interest.

[AHF]

I think there are plenty of fans who follow their favorite player(s) more than a single team.  I don't think they make up a large % of the hardcore fans who would be posting on the internet on a daily basis about the sport but there are plenty of people who moved from Cleveland fans to Miami fans and back to Cleveland and might become LA fans if LeBron bolts there because they follow him more than a particular team.  I will personally do that on a very casual basis with NBA players I particularly like or with guys I like a lot from college.  I don't care that much what happens with the team but I root for good things for the team only because I like the players (like NOP with their Kentucky Wildcats this year).  

I think it is a mix -- especially among casual fans who wouldn't know what team a lot of the top bench players play for.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

 

And honestly I find that discouraging since basketball is a team sport and not based solely on the success of one player. Fans that only support the player are the worse kind of fan in my opinion. I root on the Hawks and Falcons because I love Atlanta and support anything my city does (except voting democrat, lol). I want to see my city be successful.

 

 

And when it boils down, these players are employees. Employees can change jobs freely and bosses have the right to dump them, but as a Hawks fan, I support the organization. You leave the team when the organization wants to keep you, you can take a long walk off of a short pier for all I care and you can take your worshipers with you.

 

 

player is less than team which less than city

 

 

Hawks/Falcons ever leave Atlanta, I’ll be done with them too.

 

[Buzzard]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

I think there are plenty of fans who follow their favorite player(s) more than a single team.  I don't think they make up a large % of the hardcore fans who would be posting on the internet on a daily basis about the sport but there are plenty of people who moved from Cleveland fans to Miami fans and back to Cleveland and might become LA fans if LeBron bolts there because they follow him more than a particular team.  I will personally do that on a very casual basis with NBA players I particularly like or with guys I like a lot from college.  I don't care that much what happens with the team but I root for good things for the team only because I like the players (like NOP with their Kentucky Wildcats this year).  

I think it is a mix -- especially among casual fans who wouldn't know what team a lot of the top bench players play for.

I agree with this and will add I have been a casual fan of other players before; but rooted for the Braves, Falcons, and Hawks against them if they were playing each other.

One of my all time favorite players is Sam "The Man" Cassell. I took him in every fantasy draft I could at a reasonable spot; and would try and trade for him if I missed him. I loved his game, attitude, and think he is the most underrated point guard of his time.

I have Iverson, you have Cassell, lets work something out!

Edited February 1, 2018 by Buzzard