How Will The Hawks Look Next Year?

[Peoriabird]

Just now, KB21 said:

They may not be on the roster, but be prepared to see another G-League level player take their spot.  Even if you get Ayton, he's 3 years away from being able actually play winning basketball, and he will have no veteran to show him how defense is played in this league.  

I don't care!!!  I just don't want to see Plumlee and Cavanaugh getting minutes on the floor....He can't be worse than those guys!!!

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

They may not be on the roster, but be prepared to see another G-League level player take their spot.  Even if you get Ayton, he's 3 years away from being able actually play winning basketball, and he will have no veteran to show him how defense is played in this league.  

Having 2/3rds of your team with 2 or fewer years of experience means you will not be winning many games.  Particularly when your best vets are Kent Bazemore and Mike Muscala.

Regardless of whether we try to compete next year or not, I do think Bud will want a spread of cheap vets to fill out the roster like he had this year with Beli, Ilya, Dedmon, Babbit, etc. to begin the season.  We only went hard into the gleauge players when we went "all-in" on trying to maintain our place in the standings when so many other teams started doing the same.  I would expect way more low priced vets to fill out the roster than undrafted or gleague guys on the opening day roster.  Bigger question is whether we go in for a long-term piece in FA.  Not sure if this is the year Schlenk goes for that or if he is planning for the year after.

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Regardless of whether we try to compete next year or not, I do think Bud will want a spread of cheap vets to fill out the roster like he had this year with Beli, Ilya, Dedmon, Babbit, etc. to begin the season.  We only went hard into the gleauge players when we went "all-in" on trying to maintain our place in the standings when so many other teams started doing the same.  I would expect way more low priced vets to fill out the roster than undrafted or gleague guys on the opening day roster.  Bigger question is whether we go in for a long-term piece in FA.  Not sure if this is the year Schlenk goes for that or if he is planning for the year after.

We better compete next  year!  It doesn't matter who we have on this roster, they better compete...No more Prince and Dennis playing nonchalant defense and jacking up bad shot after bad shot or crazy line ups...We should be finished with evaluating G-leaguers on the active roster....That's what the G-league is for.  No matter what the final record is, I want Bud to do his best and let the chips fall where they may

[DS5]

Not sure if anyone's brought this up...but would there be any interest in Jabari Parker? It'll probably take Baze kind of money to get him...but he definitely has the scoring ability and upside due to his age. Although I'm not sure how he'd fit and his injury history is concerning. That said, we should be looking to just add talent at this point, regardless of fit. 

[buckyboy2]

Something like this maybe?

Schröder/Doncic(#3)/Prince/Collins/Dedmon

Taylor/Dorsey/Baze(6th man)/Robert Williams(#18)Brandon McCoy(#33)

Bembry/Moose/Lee

 

[NBASupes]

If we go BPA

Dennis/Taylor/(Brunson)

Baze

Prince

(Bagley)/Collins

Dedmon/Moose/Robinson

[JTB]

3 hours ago, DS5 said:

Not sure if anyone's brought this up...but would there be any interest in Jabari Parker? It'll probably take Baze kind of money to get him...but he definitely has the scoring ability and upside due to his age. Although I'm not sure how he'd fit and his injury history is concerning. That said, we should be looking to just add talent at this point, regardless of fit. 

Well ya see Parker is a huge possible high reward/ high risk player...first off I’m not so sure he’s going to make baze like money with those 2 knee injuries on the same knee! Unless a team with cap space is so desperate or if the bucks are dumb enough to match another teams crazy contract offer to retain Parker but I don’t see the bucks making the same mistake signing an injury prone player like they did with Redd some years ago...therefore I say Parker doesn’t get the money he’s expecting from any franchise.

HOWEVER....if a team does sign him to a deal he wants and he stays healthy it’s going to be huge for that team. After all when healthy Parker is an excellent nba scorer with terrible defensive skills.

can he fit with Collins would be the question the hawks would be asking if they are interested in him and personally for me I say offensively they will be fine but defensively man they would be absolutely horrible 

[JTB]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

If we go BPA

Dennis/Taylor/(Brunson)

Baze

Prince

(Bagley)/Collins

Dedmon/Moose/Robinson

I don’t like the idea of benching Collins ...if we get bagley let’s just hope the hawks or bud/schlenk will have some tricks up their sleeves to make them both work on the court at the same time.

-offensively I think a Collins/Bagley duo will work over time with them playing together, getting more familiar with each other, and both getting their 3ball down plus continuing to do all the other similar things they do already offensively.

-defense is the tricky part in my opinion with this two but I don’t see a reason to believe it can’t work. I think they are both similar on that end as well and have the ability to move with guards on switches and screens.

-rebound wise no need to worry as this dou will grab plenty of boards right away I say. 

[DS5]

Well ya see Parker is a huge possible high reward/ high risk player...first off I’m not so sure he’s going to make baze like money with those 2 knee injuries on the same knee! Unless a team with cap space is so desperate or if the bucks are dumb enough to match another teams crazy contract offer to retain Parker but I don’t see the bucks making the same mistake signing an injury prone player like they did with Redd some years ago...therefore I say Parker doesn’t get the money he’s expecting from any franchise.

HOWEVER....if a team does sign him to a deal he wants and he stays healthy it’s going to be huge for that team. After all when healthy Parker is an excellent nba scorer with terrible defensive skills.

can he fit with Collins would be the question the hawks would be asking if they are interested in him and personally for me I say offensively they will be fine but defensively man they would be absolutely horrible 

Buck already offered him a $54 million 3 years extension and he declined. I think it's safe to think that he'll get at the very least Baze money.

 

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[NBASupes]

48 minutes ago, JTB said:

I don’t like the idea of benching Collins ...if we get bagley let’s just hope the hawks or bud/schlenk will have some tricks up their sleeves to make them both work on the court at the same time.

-offensively I think a Collins/Bagley duo will work over time with them playing together, getting more familiar with each other, and both getting their 3ball down plus continuing to do all the other similar things they do already offensively.

-defense is the tricky part in my opinion with this two but I don’t see a reason to believe it can’t work. I think they are both similar on that end as well and have the ability to move with guards on switches and screens.

-rebound wise no need to worry as this dou will grab plenty of boards right away I say. 

I love the idea, I don't think he's a good player. I think he's talented and good at what he's good at but he's limited otherwise and Ersan was clearly better. I don't see his profession being all that great regardless of the setup in our system. Also, off the bench, it gives us a great scorer. 

Dedmon spreads the court, this creates a lot of opportunities to score for Bagley. 

Rebounding is a good point. Still like Dedmon over Collins

Edited April 5, 2018 by NBASupes

[KB21]

I still have to laugh at this idea that John isn't a good player but Marvin Bagley is a future superstar.  They have the exact same strengths and the exact same weaknesses.  You are basically wasting John Collins by drafting Marvin Bagley because they will not fit on the court together due to the duplicate skill set.

Nothing quite like that shoe company hype train driving the opinions on these players though.

Edited April 5, 2018 by KB21

[High5]

Bagley wouldn't start over Collins. He would likely come off of the bench at first and then eventually they would start together (unless Collins is traded, which I hope doesn't happen). I don't know if that would ever be a contending combo, and it's not my ideal outcome for the draft, but they would have the potential to overwhelm some teams from day one. Then we would hope for them to develop into a strong enough offensive and rebounding duo to outweigh any defensive deficiencies. It's not like you need a Ben Wallace or Dwight Howard to win these days. 

I also don't expect Dedmon to return next season, but we'll see. 

[Buzzard]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

Regardless of whether we try to compete next year or not, I do think Bud will want a spread of cheap vets to fill out the roster like he had this year with Beli, Ilya, Dedmon, Babbit, etc. to begin the season.  We only went hard into the gleauge players when we went "all-in" on trying to maintain our place in the standings when so many other teams started doing the same.  I would expect way more low priced vets to fill out the roster than undrafted or gleague guys on the opening day roster.  Bigger question is whether we go in for a long-term piece in FA.  Not sure if this is the year Schlenk goes for that or if he is planning for the year after.

And no more no trade exceptions.

[AHF]

37 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Nothing quite like that shoe company hype train driving the opinions on these players though.

Being the team leader in points and rebounds on a high profile college team has a lot to do with the interest in him.  Any freshman with solid size and plus athleticism who leads Duke or UK or Kansas or Michigan State with numbers like 21 (on fantastic efficiency)/11 averages while being a leading conference POY is going to get a lot of interest.  I think you are being a little dismissive with all the hype train references.  You know I share your fit concerns but the kid delivered this season and his team won a lot of games.  That isn't shoe company stuff.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Being the team leader in points and rebounds on a high profile college team has a lot to do with the interest in him.  Any freshman with solid size and plus athleticism who leads Duke or UK or Kansas or Michigan State with numbers like 21 (on fantastic efficiency)/11 averages while being a leading conference POY is going to get a lot of interest.  I think you are being a little dismissive with all the hype train references.  You know I share your fit concerns but the kid delivered this season and his team won a lot of games.  That isn't shoe company stuff.

I think it absolutely is, because if you base your opinion off his actual skill level right now, there is no way you would be interested in taking him with the top pick of the draft.  This is Andrew Wiggins all over again.

Just wait till next year.  Zion Williamson will be the darling of the message board because he is the guy the shoe companies and the media are pushing as the best guy, highlighting his dunks and ignoring his lack of skill.

Edited April 6, 2018 by KB21

[NBASupes]

58 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I still have to laugh at this idea that John isn't a good player but Marvin Bagley is a future superstar.  They have the exact same strengths and the exact same weaknesses.  You are basically wasting John Collins by drafting Marvin Bagley because they will not fit on the court together due to the duplicate skill set.

Nothing quite like that shoe company hype train driving the opinions on these players though.

It's quite simple. I don't think they have the exact strengths and weaknesses although I do agree, they do have some similar strengths and weaknesses. I just disagree with you on their levels. Bagley has a number of ELITE strengths and his weaknesses are not as pronounced as Collins. 

I don't see Collins as a modern 4. I see him as a classic 4. Now, I have personally spoken to scouts and they said, they see Bagley as a classic 4. I asked them, who has the ability or talent Bagley has as a reference. Everyone said the same thing. We have never seen a player like Bagley. They have been evaluating him since HS. 

All say his potential is a stretch 4. I asked about Collins, they say that he's a classic 4 through and through. But the one I spoke to about both said Collins has shown he's more than just a 6th man type. He could be a starter in the right system, he didn't specify what that was. 

 

So I am looking at things differently. They do have some similarities. But we must understand that Michael Jordan and Ron Harper had similarities. LeBron James and Josh Smith had similarities. Russell Westbrook and Reggie Jackson had similarities. Anthony Randolph/Bruno Cobolo and Giannis had similarities. Similarities need to be spoken with regard. I can't be used to dismiss a player. Especially when there is a massive gap in the abilities in that. 

I am not sure why you are calling someone like Bagley III hype. He was just the best freshman in the NCAA and one of the best in the nation as what was supposed to be his HS Senior campaign. He didn't get a summer with Duke. He took the summer to the Drew League and school. For a freshman, that's extremely late. 

[NBASupes]

29 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think it absolutely is, because if you base your opinion off his actual skill level right now, there is no way you would be interested in taking him with the top pick of the draft.  This is Andrew Wiggins all over again.

Just wait till next year.  Zion Williamson will be the darling of the message board because he is the guy the shoe companies and the media are pushing as the best guy, highlighting his dunks and ignoring his lack of skill.

Skill level is a part of the evaluation. Not the entire part. This isn't an NFL quarterback. If we were going off of skill level. Bowie deserved to be picked ahead of Michael Jordan. But athletic ability, quickness, speed, first step, ability in the air, open court ability, feel for the game, ability to be unstoppable would not matter by your own logic. 

If you are so heady on skill level, why is JJJ even ranked that high with you. He's not as skilled as a number of guys in this class. The Bridges are both far more skilled than Jaren is?  

Edited April 6, 2018 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

40 minutes ago, AHF said:

Being the team leader in points and rebounds on a high profile college team has a lot to do with the interest in him.  Any freshman with solid size and plus athleticism who leads Duke or UK or Kansas or Michigan State with numbers like 21 (on fantastic efficiency)/11 averages while being a leading conference POY is going to get a lot of interest.  I think you are being a little dismissive with all the hype train references.  You know I share your fit concerns but the kid delivered this season and his team won a lot of games.  That isn't shoe company stuff.

This is what KB thinks in his mind. He thinks Bagley just isn't good. He thinks that Bagley isn't that quick, isn't that fast or at least that much faster than Collins, doesn't think he's all that athletic, doesn't think he can defend a lick, doesn't think he can shoot a lick, he thinks that Bagley is just hype and fluff from HS and scouts can't let go of the past and that picking him will essentially be like drafting John Collins at the top 3 instead of the great value Collins was at 17. This is what KB thinks. That's why he's bringing up Wiggins, someone who underwhelming and has been underwhelming since HS in his mind. This is what's going on in KB's mind. 

 
In reality, he doesn't really focus on Bagley. He just doesn't like him for the Hawks. He doesn't really focus much on him based on that along. So he will just use articles that disparage him and if those people start changing their viewpoint from that to more positive, he stops using them completely. He doesn't really watch Bagley at all. I can tell he's speaking off of emotion when he says things like, he's a carbon copy of Collins. He can't shoot. He can't dribble especially in isolation. He can defend a lick. All of these things have been completely dispelled. There is some accuracy to his post defense and even team defense but that's not the message he's trying to come across with. His message is simple. I like Collins. I think he could be solid, Bagley isn't that good to me, take the fork value.

In reality, Bagley is supremely better. He has elite abilities. The only elite trait Collins has is as a finisher and his hands are too small to hold to the rock at times. While he is an excellent athlete, he's not once in a generation athlete. There is a massive gap. He then tries to use Amare but that excuses the fact that Bagley has superior at this stage BBIQ, range, speed, lateral quickness, agility, offensive instincts, and rebounding skills altogether. But I guess he says it because it covers the, he's just an excellent scorer Supes point he wants to come across with. 

Like I said, we don't have a point of reference for him. Bosh is the closest. They have more similarities than anyone else but Bosh tools are better. That standing reach and wingspan Bosh as gave him the ability to play PF/C when he went from 220 to 250. Bagley who is already 235 probably doesn't have 250 in him. Maybe 240-243 is a sound range for him. 

Bagley III #1 on my board. He's the only generational talent in this class.  I've been on record for saying there isn't a generational talent in this class but I been saying Bagley is as well. I have to make up my mind. While I am not 100%, I am giving him a 90% generational rating. He's not Shaq, Hakeem, or Magic or Bird but he's a tier above an elite prospect for me. I think he will be in the running for NBA All Star game as a true rookie. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

Bagley wouldn't start over Collins. He would likely come off of the bench at first and then eventually they would start together (unless Collins is traded, which I hope doesn't happen). I don't know if that would ever be a contending combo, and it's not my ideal outcome for the draft, but they would have the potential to overwhelm some teams from day one. Then we would hope for them to develop into a strong enough offensive and rebounding duo to outweigh any defensive deficiencies. It's not like you need a Ben Wallace or Dwight Howard to win these days. 

I also don't expect Dedmon to return next season, but we'll see. 

Out of all of the rookies, Bagley is the only one I think would start Day 1 for Bud. I clearly don't see Collins starting. He's only starting due to the tank. 

[DBac]

On the Kawhi topic I absolutely would give up our first (along with other things) to trade for him if

1) The health checks out

2) You feel confident that he will sign an extension.

3) He will actually play (a combo of 1 and 2).

 

He's a top 5-6 player when he's on the floor, that's what we want afterall. 

 

--

 

I think ultimately Dennis will be on the Hawks next year. If it was up to Schlenk he wouldn't be (already tried to move him to the Bucks, everyone was on the block at the deadline), but this bar thing and his value being low already isn't gonna help move him. Doubt Schlenk goes with another 'just get this guy off my team' trade.

 

So pretty much the same as this year, different spread of vets but they'll be vets who don't get in the way of young guys playing if they prove themselves worthy.

Edited April 6, 2018 by DBac