The Tank Thread

[TheNorthCydeRises]

We live in a far different era than we did 30, even 20 years ago.  I think ya'll need to keep this tanking discussion to the era of free agency and 19 year old kids coming into the NBA.  There are no polished college kids coming into the NBA who are ready made superstars, like we had back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Elements of a title team:

You have to have a Hall of Fame player playing at or near his peak . . . along with an All-Star caliber player who might have a chance at the Hall of Fame himself . . . plus a 3rd guy who can play at least at All-Star level from time to time . . . and you have to be a top 10 defensive team

When you see the teams that have perpetually stayed in the depths of the NBA, despite getting tons of lottery picks, these are the reasons why they haven't even gotten back to playoff level, let alone contend for a title.

I feel sorry for Sacramento.  11 years out of the playoffs, soon to be 12.  Hope for the future with the lottery picks, but no guy on the team that looks like a legit All-Star talent.  So they will stay in the depths, possibly for years to come.

 

 

[KB21]

I'm not trolling.  I have a very strong opinion that is backed up by a tremendous amount of evidence to support my view, and I will never cave to someone else's view on this.  There is absolutely nothing that can be said that would make me support the strategy the Hawks have undertaken this year.

[AHF]

Just now, NBASupes said:

He's trolling you and you are taking the bait. 

I don't think he is trolling, though.  I think he is just frustrated and lashing out.  He is a smart guy and knows those things (like that people who advocate rebuilding through the lottery assume we can draft a generational talent every year or that every champion tried their best to win and only hit the lottery due to the injuries of their players) aren't true.  He is just frustrated.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

22 minutes ago, Diesel said:

What's the probability of drafting the next Jordan??  Probably about the same or less than the probability of drafting the next Darko.

 

Now that's not true at all.  It's almost a guarantee that at least one of the top 5 picks in each draft, will be a bust . . and one will be a potential Hall of Famer.  But a potential top 5 player of all time?   Nah.

Like KB said, there hasn't been one of those in the draft since 2007 ( Durant ).

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

We live in a far different era than we did 30, even 20 years ago.  I think ya'll need to keep this tanking discussion to the era of free agency and 19 year old kids coming into the NBA.  There are no polished college kids coming into the NBA who are ready made superstars, like we had back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Elements of a title team:

You have to have a Hall of Fame player playing at or near his peak . . . along with an All-Star caliber player who might have a chance at the Hall of Fame himself . . . plus a 3rd guy who can play at least at All-Star level from time to time . . . and you have to be a top 10 defensive team

When you see the teams that have perpetually stayed in the depths of the NBA, despite getting tons of lottery picks, these are the reasons why they haven't even gotten back to playoff level, let alone contend for a title.

I feel sorry for Sacramento.  11 years out of the playoffs, soon to be 12.  Hope for the future with the lottery picks, but no guy on the team that looks like a legit All-Star talent.  So they will stay in the depths, possibly for years to come.

 

 

Sacto keeps trading away picks and players and signing free agents trying to win now.  They are a disaster of mismanagement.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

We live in a far different era than we did 30, even 20 years ago.  I think ya'll need to keep this tanking discussion to the era of free agency and 19 year old kids coming into the NBA.  There are no polished college kids coming into the NBA who are ready made superstars, like we had back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Elements of a title team:

You have to have a Hall of Fame player playing at or near his peak . . . along with an All-Star caliber player who might have a chance at the Hall of Fame himself . . . plus a 3rd guy who can play at least at All-Star level from time to time . . . and you have to be a top 10 defensive team

When you see the teams that have perpetually stayed in the depths of the NBA, despite getting tons of lottery picks, these are the reasons why they haven't even gotten back to playoff level, let alone contend for a title.

I feel sorry for Sacramento.  11 years out of the playoffs, soon to be 12.  Hope for the future with the lottery picks, but no guy on the team that looks like a legit All-Star talent.  So they will stay in the depths, possibly for years to come.

 

 

Nonsense.  They have both Harry Giles and Skal Labissiere, who were both pushed by the shoe companies as the next big things....the next generational talents.

[AHF]

Fox is a talent.  That kid won't bust.

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Now that's not true at all.  It's almost a guarantee that at least one of the top 5 picks in each draft, will be a bust . . and one will be a potential Hall of Famer.  But a potential top 5 player of all time?   Nah.

Like KB said, there hasn't been one of those in the draft since 2007 ( Durant ).

Eh, it's even unlikely that you will get a potential Hall of Famer with that top pick.   Look at the past few drafts.  Of the top 5, you can pretty much count on 3+ not meeting the expectations if not more.

Think about that 2014 draft that had the player that many wanted to say was the best prospect since LeBron.  You had Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid, Dante Exum, and Aaron Gordon go in the top 5.  Wiggins is terrible.  Parker is always hurt and isn't impressive when healthy.  Exum has been a bust.  Gordon is a role player.  Embiid is great when he's healthy, but he's never healthy and they don't even play him in the second game of a back to back.

Edited November 14, 2017 by KB21

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Oh, I absolutely believe that Bud will not be the coach next year.  This season will wear on him, and he will either take a break from coaching period, or he will jump at the first team that comes calling him.  

....and I believe Mark Jackson will be a candidate for two reason.  First, he has worked with Schlenk in the past with Golden State, and second, some idiot season ticket holder suggested last year that the Hawks should fire Bud and hire Mark Jackson.  Considering that Tony Ressler bought Travis's line of goods about tanking, it wouldn't surprise me if he buys into the season ticket holder's idea that Mark Jackson is actually a good coach.

This isn't as far fetched as people are making it out to be.  I could definitely see Bud getting burned out by all of this.

[KB21]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

This isn't as far fetched as people are making it out to be.  I could definitely see Bud getting burned out by all of this.

Yeah.  Some truly believe that he is not only on board but eager to have a historically bad season just to be able to coach the next 19 year old wunderkind.......whenever that kid is actually available in the draft.

[aali34]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

Nonsense.  They have both Harry Giles and Skal Labissiere, who were both pushed by the shoe companies as the next big things....the next generational talents.

Skal was definitely over hyped going into college, but his play didn't hold up and he ended up a lower pick. Giles just got unlucky with injuries.

I don't care much about hype. I like to see games and video breakdowns before making my own decision.

[AHF]

Skal has looked better in the NBA than he did in college.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, aali34 said:

Skal was definitely over hyped going into college, but his play didn't hold up and he ended up a lower pick. Giles just got unlucky with injuries.

I don't care much about hype. I like to see games and video breakdowns before making my own decision.

Skal was a good kid that got lead astray by people who did not have his best interests in mind.  I had a PA when I did sports medicine that lived in the same neighborhood as Skal.  He was from Olive Branch, MS, and played his first three years at a Memphis school before a handler got him into one of the prep school programs up north.  The hype from that point took off, and I knew he was never going to live up to it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Eh, it's even unlikely that you will get a potential Hall of Famer with that top pick.   Look at the past few drafts.  Of the top 5, you can pretty much count on 3+ not meeting the expectations if not more.

Think about that 2014 draft that had the player that many wanted to say was the best prospect since LeBron.  You had Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid, Dante Exum, and Aaron Gordon go in the top 5.  Wiggins is terrible.  Parker is always hurt and isn't impressive when healthy.  Exum has been a bust.  Gordon is a role player.  Embiid is great when he's healthy, but he's never healthy and they don't even play him in the second game of a back to back.

Wiggins isn't horrible.  When I watch him, I see the young Rudy Gay and the current Demar Derozan.  And he's only 22.

 

 

If he were on the Hawks, I wouldn't be mad at all.  He definitely has a shot to be great in about 3 years.

[NBASupes]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't think he is trolling, though.  I think he is just frustrated and lashing out.  He is a smart guy and knows those things (like that people who advocate rebuilding through the lottery assume we can draft a generational talent every year or that every champion tried their best to win and only hit the lottery due to the injuries of their players) aren't true.  He is just frustrated.

Advocating for rebuilding isn't the same as every year, we can get a generational talent. There wasn't one in last year's draft. You can argue if Towns was generational, I'll say otherwise but as of late, he's looking like an once in a generational tweener big. Porzigis might not be generational but he can be someone you build a champion around. Right now, we are missing a tier 1 talent. We had it with Horford but he wasn't an elite #1 option which limited our potential. Since we lost Horford, we had no other choice but to rebuild. We are doing it the right way.

 

Tanking in strong top heavy drafts is always a good thing. You could screw up and be the one team to draft poorly but you could also but that one team that drafts your centerpiece for the next 10-15 years. 

 

I was frustrated for most of our pretender years and I don't recall being able to troll the board with my complaining. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by NBASupes

[KB21]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Wiggins isn't horrible.  When I watch him, I see the young Rudy Gay and the current Demar Derozan.  And he's only 22.

 

 

If he were on the Hawks, I wouldn't be mad at all.  He definitely has a shot to be great in about 3 years.

So, you think he's going to end up developing some defensive ability and something else on offense that doesn't involve volume shooting?

If he's Rudy Gay or Derozen, that's not worth a top 5 pick to me, much less the #1 overall pick.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Wiggins isn't horrible.  When I watch him, I see the young Rudy Gay and the current Demar Derozan.  And he's only 22.

 

 

If he were on the Hawks, I wouldn't be mad at all.  He definitely has a shot to be great in about 3 years.

Same, I wouldn't be mad at someone like Wiggins. He's not my favorite and he's unpolished but he would fit what we want him to do for us. That said, I wouldn't want him to be our centerpiece either. He's a legit #3 who has #1 potential in the right system with the right development. Wiggins is a player who was very raw out of college but his "potential" led him to be drafted so high. 

[NBASupes]

I am a believer that great drafting makes a great team. I do see what KB21 would like but I understand, you can't miss when you are going with the Detriot method. When we had Horford who was a tier 1 player. We needed to get another tier 1 but someone who's a #1 option. When we missed on a trade for Steph Curry for Josh Smith because GS decline it was strike one. When we missed on drafting Giannis when Ferry wanted him was strike 2. When Brooklyn made the playoffs and took the #11 pick to #15 where the draft was a 13 man draft and we were going to draft Devin Booker was strike three. 

 

You can't afford to miss when you are so as we were. We had our tier 1 player in Horford. We needed an elite #1 option type to make us a legit contender. We failed when Al left. It happens. It happened to Cleveland when LeBron left. It is what it is. We had to rebuild. No way we were making the playoffs this year if Sap came back. I am watching him in Denver and he looks a step slower right now. Like we did with Smoove, we got out, right on time. It's okay. It happens. 

We made the best possible decision. That's okay. 

[NBASupes]

13 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So, you think he's going to end up developing some defensive ability and something else on offense that doesn't involve volume shooting?

If he's Rudy Gay or Derozen, that's not worth a top 5 pick to me, much less the #1 overall pick.

He needs to become more consistent but his biggest issue is he never had spacing around him in the NBA. That would help his development. Defensively, he's hit or miss. His off the ball defense is still pretty bad. He's like the opposite of Korver. He can do all of the things Kyle can't but Kyle can do all of what Andrew can't. 

I don't think he's worth a #1 pick but you had no choice. It was a weak draft and Embiid was looking like he might be out for two seasons which actually happened. Overhyped HS class. Parker and Wiggins was overhyped. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by NBASupes

[nathan2331]

 

 

Past 16 years... 0% of the top 4 picks have won their first championship with the team that drafted them...  16 years....  You can be as bad as you want to be.. but not Dwight, Not Bron, Not Melo, Not KD, Not Wall, Not Westbrook have won their first championship with the team that drafted them... SO.. you believe that we go out and pick up Donic and 3-4 years later we'd be getting the trophy???

I'm laughing.

 

 

The Thunder, Magic with Dwight and Cavs Lebron were closer than we've ever been, so tanking is viable.

 

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