The Tank Thread

[hazer]

6 hours ago, davis171 said:

Duncan as a rookie 100% did not lead that team. So Schlenk finds John Collins at 19 and you are assuming he doesn't know how to draft he is 1for 1 in my book? Do you really think that Ressler hired Schlenk without a plan? You REALLY think Schlenk came to his interview here and said hire me I have no idea how to help you guys win in the future. Schlenk 100% has a plan and it involves not making the guy playing the 5th most minutes by the end of the season (Dwight Howard) a fourth of your cap. So yeah you may not agree with his plan but he has one that the hawks organization liked enough to hire.

Diesel has spoken with Schlenk. Schlenk told him he has no plan...

[KB21]

8 hours ago, davis171 said:

Duncan as a rookie 100% did not lead that team. So Schlenk finds John Collins at 19 and you are assuming he doesn't know how to draft he is 1for 1 in my book? Do you really think that Ressler hired Schlenk without a plan? You REALLY think Schlenk came to his interview here and said hire me I have no idea how to help you guys win in the future. Schlenk 100% has a plan and it involves not making the guy playing the 5th most minutes by the end of the season (Dwight Howard) a fourth of your cap. So yeah you may not agree with his plan but he has one that the hawks organization liked enough to hire.

Yeah.

Schlenk's plan is to lose a lot of games for the next five years, and then convince ownership that he should give 25% of the cap to some young kid that hasn't helped the team win.

[davis171]

19 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yeah.

Schlenk's plan is to lose a lot of games for the next five years, and then convince ownership that he should give 25% of the cap to some young kid that hasn't helped the team win.

Well ownership agrees with his plan whatever it may be; so just maybe you should shut up until he is actually in a position to execute it. Bud, who was one of the worst Presidents ever, let the most valuable asset on the team in Horford go for no compensation and signed a non All-star big to a $70 million contract. Sap is also on Bud because giving a third of your cap to him is asinine if it maybe gets you get swept in the first round if you make it at all he should have been traded. Bud is the one who traded Teague and Korver and handed the ship to Schröder not Schlenk you are just wrong dude. Schlenk was left with table scraps and decided it is not in the hawks best interest to give a third of your cap to a boarderline all star that can't take you anywhere and I 100% agree. BTW Bud also traded away Kelly Oubre for THJ who isn't on the team anymore. You think that the hawks could use a 22 yr old 6'7 wing averaging 12ppg 5rbd while shooting 35% from 3 and making 2 million next year all on Bud not Schlenk.

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

Ownership is only on board because this pathway can help control roster costs and allows for more profit with the recent increases in revenue the club has had.  

[davis171]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Ownership is only on board because this pathway can help control roster costs and allows for more profit with the recent increases in revenue the club has had.  

How can you say that when we took on extra salary this past offseason we didn't have to? What proof do you have? You just are wrong but everyone is sometimes.

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

10 minutes ago, davis171 said:

How can you say that when we took on extra salary this past offseason we didn't have to? What proof do you have? You just are wrong but everyone is sometimes.

It was a short term sacrifice to get rid of a big money contract that would have come off in 2 years anyway.  Wait and see.  The Hawks will not sign anyone of significance this year, and they will look to offload Kent Bazemore's contract and Dennis Schröder's contract in the process, claiming that it helps with their cap flexibility that they will not use.  

[davis171]

16 minutes ago, KB21 said:

It was a short term sacrifice to get rid of a big money contract that would have come off in 2 years anyway.  Wait and see.  The Hawks will not sign anyone of significance this year, and they will look to offload Kent Bazemore's contract and Dennis Schröder's contract in the process, claiming that it helps with their cap flexibility that they will not use.  

We pretty much bought the rockets pick this year by trading for and realeasing Jamal Crawford is what I was referring to. We took on his salary for a first round pick that doesn't seem like an organization trying to pinch pennies.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, davis171 said:

We pretty much bought the rockets pick this year by trading for and realeasing Jamal Crawford is what I was referring to. We took on his salary for a first round pick that doesn't seem like an organization trying to pinch pennies.

We took on his salary for a first round pick that will do nothing to help this team win and may not even be a long term part of this team.

But again, it is a short term sacrifice to take money on this year only to have that slot filled with a late first round rookie deal in future years.  It was clearly a future cost control move.

[davis171]

27 minutes ago, KB21 said:

We took on his salary for a first round pick that will do nothing to help this team win and may not even be a long term part of this team.

But again, it is a short term sacrifice to take money on this year only to have that slot filled with a late first round rookie deal in future years.  It was clearly a future cost control move.

That makes 0 sense lmao

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[TheNorthCydeRises]

14 hours ago, davis171 said:

Okay no signing Dwight who isn't an all star anymore to anything more than 10-12 million makes no since imo and that's why the hawks struggled to trade him. Sap's contract would have meant no cap space this coming off season so what you going to do to improve your maybe 8 seed hawks? Also in what fantasyland is Sexton a better prospect than Doncic and Ayton. I guarantee you you are a hawks fan that'll boo Doncic purely because he isn't from America. He has played against Kristaps Porzingus, Pau Gasol, Bojan Bogdonavic, Dario Saric, Lauri Markkenan, Tomas Sanoransky, Evan Fournier, etc this past summer and averaged 14pts 8rbd 4 ass if you don't want that idk what to tell you. Also Dwight didn't even average 30 min a game last year so no you're just wrong. He averaged 25 mpg in the playoffs

The Hawks didn't struggle to trade Dwight.  They basically dumped him for scraps to make the team bad.   

That "non All-Star" last year led the Hawks in PER ( 20.8 ) . . Win Share - ( 8.3 )  . . WS/48 ( .181 ) - and was 2nd on the team in Value Over Replacement Player ( VORP ) - 2.7.  Dwight more than did his job here last year and was easily a top 3 center in the East last season. 

What he couldn't control, was how the guards couldn't make simple entry passes in the post to him.  Nor could he control the decisions of the coach not to get him more touches in the post during the playoffs, who valued shooting over legit post play and rebounding.  Bud's coaching during that playoff series vs Washington last year, was atrocious.  Just like it was the previous season, when he couldn't figure out that a tough big like Kris Humphries might have some value, over the better shooting, but much weaker Muscala.  In both instances, he bet on Moose . . and lost.

Even this season, the lack of post touches by Collins this season should scare everyone.  Collins was not only a gifted Pick and Roll player in college, he was very good in the post.  The fact that Collins has only received the ball a total of 22 times in the post this season, is one of the biggest travesties of the season.  How does a player who was one of the most efficient scorers in college basketball, not get to play to his strengths?  So the question now is, can Bud properly develop Collins to his maximum potential?  I truly can't say definitely YES to that question.

 

This takes us to the draft.   I never said that Sexton was a better draft prospect than Ayton or Doncic.  What I do know though, is that if there's any type of player that Bud can develop in his system, it's point guard.  I thought he did a real good job with Teague, by turning him into a more aggressive floor leader that could knock down the 3. 

I hate that Dennis' full development was pretty much wasted this season, because we couldn't have him be "too good" in order to preserve the "tank".  But Bud has done a good job with Dennis.   I had serious doubts that he could get his shot off without space, when he came into the league.  Dennis has worked on his midrange game extensively, and has become a pretty good midrange shooter, even if his long range shooting has tailed off big time since November.

So when you look at this draft, I think that Bud could have the most success developing either Sexton, or Trae Young over the big guys.

 

Trae Young

As much as Young has struggled in Big 12 play, I think the open floor game of the NBA, along with playing alongside much better players, could help Young's game.   People talk about his shooting and shot making, which was definitely eye popping early in the season.  But to me, his best attribute is his passing.  That dude can pass his ass off.  He has Lonzo Ball type vision.   He can make anybody he's playing with, into a better player.  A Pick and Roll attack of Collins and Young, could be lethal.

The big knock on Trae, to me, is his ability to be a leader when he's struggling.  It's almost to the point that opposing PGs are "punking" him.  And his defense is atrocious.  Overall, he has to become physically and mentally tougher.   Once Big 12 coaches really challenged their PGs to really pressure Trae defensively on the ball, he somewhat folded up.  And Lon Krueger did Trae no favors, because once he gave the ball up, he wasn't moving Trae around in the offense to free him up for open shots.  Trae, under better coaching, could be an absolute monster in the NBA.  The shooting, court vison and the range on his shot, cannot be overlooked in today's NBA.  

 

Collin Sexton

Being "punked" is NOT an issue for Collin Sexton.  This dude is a DOG, in the fact that he's going to keep coming at you on both ends of the floor.  He has a Russell Westbrook mentality, without all of the bad shot selection that Russell takes.  Avery Johnson has done a great job in harnessing Collin's aggressiveness.  He doesn't let him completely freelance like Kruger has Young doing, but he does give Collin enough freedom in the offense to show off all of his skill set.

At 6-3, he's as quick and explosive as any guard in college basketball.   It would be VERY INTERESTING to see he and Dennis in a lineup together, running Pick and Roll on either side of the court, much like what James Harden and Chris Paul does in Houston.  Now I'm in NO WAY comparing those 2 to Harden and Paul, but the effect on the Hawks offense could be truly dynamic, when you basically have to guard two guys who can break you completely down off the dribble.  Bud has shown in his tenure in ATL, that he likes the 2 PG attack at times.   So whether Sexton is starting, or coming off the bench, an in-game lineup of . .

Schröder - Sexton - Bazemore - Prince - Collins

 . . would be one of the more interesting lineups, from a speed and attacking standpoint, that the Hawks could throw at people next season.  Most important, it would take the ball handling decisions COMPLETELY out of Baze's hands, and turn him more into a spot up shooter . . which he's done pretty well this season.  If it's proven that Dennis and Collin couldn't play with each other, we now have the option to flip Dennis for a better fitting player . . . ala what Golden State did with Monta Ellis.

 

At the end of the day, I trust Bud more with the point guards, than I do with the bigs.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, davis171 said:

That makes 0 sense lmao

It's exactly what he did though.

If you're going to bottom the team out, any deal made for Dwight had to be one that DIDN'T improve the team, but made it worse.  And if you had to take on a bad contract to do it, so be it . . . in his eyes.

It's an indication that Schlenk intends on playing the lottery for MULTIPLE years, not just one year.  

Put it like this . . . if we draft one of the bigs, do you think Plumlee even is in the rotation next season?  Especially if we cut a deal to bring back Dedmon?

[KB21]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

It's exactly what he did though.

If you're going to bottom the team out, any deal made for Dwight had to be one that DIDN'T improve the team, but made it worse.  And if you had to take on a bad contract to do it, so be it . . . in his eyes.

It's an indication that Schlenk intends on playing the lottery for MULTIPLE years, not just one year.  

Put it like this . . . if we draft one of the bigs, do you think Plumlee even is in the rotation next season?  Especially if we cut a deal to bring back Dedmon?

Dedmon isn't coming back.  He's going to be "too pricey for where we are at" this off season.

[DBac]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Schröder - Sexton - Bazemore - Prince - Collins

 . . would be one of the more interesting lineups, from a speed and attacking standpoint, that the Hawks could throw at people next season.  Most important, it would take the ball handling decisions COMPLETELY out of Baze's hands, and turn him more into a spot up shooter . . which he's done pretty well this season.  If it's proven that Dennis and Collin couldn't play with each other, we now have the option to flip Dennis for a better fitting player . . . ala what Golden State did with Monta Ellis.

 

I was with you on the draft stuff until I got to this. I wholly believe this could compete for the worst defense in the last 5-10 years.

[KB21]

27 minutes ago, DBac said:

I was with you on the draft stuff until I got to this. I wholly believe this could compete for the worst defense in the last 5-10 years.

You can insert pretty much any name that will be taken at the top of this draft save for Jaren Jackson and have the worst defense in the past 5-10 years.

[davis171]

39 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The Hawks didn't struggle to trade Dwight.  They basically dumped him for scraps to make the team bad.   

That "non All-Star" last year led the Hawks in PER ( 20.8 ) . . Win Share - ( 8.3 )  . . WS/48 ( .181 ) - and was 2nd on the team in Value Over Replacement Player ( VORP ) - 2.7.  Dwight more than did his job here last year and was easily a top 3 center in the East last season. 

What he couldn't control, was how the guards couldn't make simple entry passes in the post to him.  Nor could he control the decisions of the coach not to get him more touches in the post during the playoffs, who valued shooting over legit post play and rebounding.  Bud's coaching during that playoff series vs Washington last year, was atrocious.  Just like it was the previous season, when he couldn't figure out that a tough big like Kris Humphries might have some value, over the better shooting, but much weaker Muscala.  In both instances, he bet on Moose . . and lost.

Even this season, the lack of post touches by Collins this season should scare everyone.  Collins was not only a gifted Pick and Roll player in college, he was very good in the post.  The fact that Collins has only received the ball a total of 22 times in the post this season, is one of the biggest travesties of the season.  How does a player who was one of the most efficient scorers in college basketball, not get to play to his strengths?  So the question now is, can Bud properly develop Collins to his maximum potential?  I truly can't say definitely YES to that question.

 

This takes us to the draft.   I never said that Sexton was a better draft prospect than Ayton or Doncic.  What I do know though, is that if there's any type of player that Bud can develop in his system, it's point guard.  I thought he did a real good job with Teague, by turning him into a more aggressive floor leader that could knock down the 3. 

I hate that Dennis' full development was pretty much wasted this season, because we couldn't have him be "too good" in order to preserve the "tank".  But Bud has done a good job with Dennis.   I had serious doubts that he could get his shot off without space, when he came into the league.  Dennis has worked on his midrange game extensively, and has become a pretty good midrange shooter, even if his long range shooting has tailed off big time since November.

So when you look at this draft, I think that Bud could have the most success developing either Sexton, or Trae Young over the big guys.

 

Trae Young

As much as Young has struggled in Big 12 play, I think the open floor game of the NBA, along with playing alongside much better players, could help Young's game.   People talk about his shooting and shot making, which was definitely eye popping early in the season.  But to me, his best attribute is his passing.  That dude can pass his ass off.  He has Lonzo Ball type vision.   He can make anybody he's playing with, into a better player.  A Pick and Roll attack of Collins and Young, could be lethal.

The big knock on Trae, to me, is his ability to be a leader when he's struggling.  It's almost to the point that opposing PGs are "punking" him.  And his defense is atrocious.  Overall, he has to become physically and mentally tougher.   Once Big 12 coaches really challenged their PGs to really pressure Trae defensively on the ball, he somewhat folded up.  And Lon Krueger did Trae no favors, because once he gave the ball up, he wasn't moving Trae around in the offense to free him up for open shots.  Trae, under better coaching, could be an absolute monster in the NBA.  The shooting, court vison and the range on his shot, cannot be overlooked in today's NBA.  

 

Collin Sexton

Being "punked" is NOT an issue for Collin Sexton.  This dude is a DOG, in the fact that he's going to keep coming at you on both ends of the floor.  He has a Russell Westbrook mentality, without all of the bad shot selection that Russell takes.  Avery Johnson has done a great job in harnessing Collin's aggressiveness.  He doesn't let him completely freelance like Kruger has Young doing, but he does give Collin enough freedom in the offense to show off all of his skill set.

At 6-3, he's as quick and explosive as any guard in college basketball.   It would be VERY INTERESTING to see he and Dennis in a lineup together, running Pick and Roll on either side of the court, much like what James Harden and Chris Paul does in Houston.  Now I'm in NO WAY comparing those 2 to Harden and Paul, but the effect on the Hawks offense could be truly dynamic, when you basically have to guard two guys who can break you completely down off the dribble.  Bud has shown in his tenure in ATL, that he likes the 2 PG attack at times.   So whether Sexton is starting, or coming off the bench, an in-game lineup of . .

Schröder - Sexton - Bazemore - Prince - Collins

 . . would be one of the more interesting lineups, from a speed and attacking standpoint, that the Hawks could throw at people next season.  Most important, it would take the ball handling decisions COMPLETELY out of Baze's hands, and turn him more into a spot up shooter . . which he's done pretty well this season.  If it's proven that Dennis and Collin couldn't play with each other, we now have the option to flip Dennis for a better fitting player . . . ala what Golden State did with Monta Ellis.

 

At the end of the day, I trust Bud more with the point guards, than I do with the bigs.  

 

30 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

It's exactly what he did though.

If you're going to bottom the team out, any deal made for Dwight had to be one that DIDN'T improve the team, but made it worse.  And if you had to take on a bad contract to do it, so be it . . . in his eyes.

It's an indication that Schlenk intends on playing the lottery for MULTIPLE years, not just one year.  

Put it like this . . . if we draft one of the bigs, do you think Plumlee even is in the rotation next season?  Especially if we cut a deal to bring back Dedmon?

Hahahahahahahaha I'm crying if you actually believe any of this.

[DBac]

Just now, KB21 said:

You can insert pretty much any name that will be taken at the top of this draft save for Jaren Jackson and have the worst defense in the past 5-10 years.

Ehhh. We could do a bit better than being super undersized at every position.

[Lurker]

You can have a PER of 30+ and it not matter if you are a poor fit for the team. Keep Dwight and Millsap and I'm doubtful this year is a playoff team even though it was **not tanking** and even in a world in which Millsap's ligaments are good (like I said, I'll buy an injury being fluky if it's a broken bone but stress type injuries...nah).

There is no world in which Dwight had a good year last year though, or even this year. PER is based purely on efficiency and not how good you actually are. 

[KB21]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The Hawks didn't struggle to trade Dwight.  They basically dumped him for scraps to make the team bad.   

That "non All-Star" last year led the Hawks in PER ( 20.8 ) . . Win Share - ( 8.3 )  . . WS/48 ( .181 ) - and was 2nd on the team in Value Over Replacement Player ( VORP ) - 2.7.  Dwight more than did his job here last year and was easily a top 3 center in the East last season. 

What he couldn't control, was how the guards couldn't make simple entry passes in the post to him.  Nor could he control the decisions of the coach not to get him more touches in the post during the playoffs, who valued shooting over legit post play and rebounding.  Bud's coaching during that playoff series vs Washington last year, was atrocious.  Just like it was the previous season, when he couldn't figure out that a tough big like Kris Humphries might have some value, over the better shooting, but much weaker Muscala.  In both instances, he bet on Moose . . and lost.

Even this season, the lack of post touches by Collins this season should scare everyone.  Collins was not only a gifted Pick and Roll player in college, he was very good in the post.  The fact that Collins has only received the ball a total of 22 times in the post this season, is one of the biggest travesties of the season.  How does a player who was one of the most efficient scorers in college basketball, not get to play to his strengths?  So the question now is, can Bud properly develop Collins to his maximum potential?  I truly can't say definitely YES to that question.

 

This takes us to the draft.   I never said that Sexton was a better draft prospect than Ayton or Doncic.  What I do know though, is that if there's any type of player that Bud can develop in his system, it's point guard.  I thought he did a real good job with Teague, by turning him into a more aggressive floor leader that could knock down the 3. 

I hate that Dennis' full development was pretty much wasted this season, because we couldn't have him be "too good" in order to preserve the "tank".  But Bud has done a good job with Dennis.   I had serious doubts that he could get his shot off without space, when he came into the league.  Dennis has worked on his midrange game extensively, and has become a pretty good midrange shooter, even if his long range shooting has tailed off big time since November.

So when you look at this draft, I think that Bud could have the most success developing either Sexton, or Trae Young over the big guys.

 

Trae Young

As much as Young has struggled in Big 12 play, I think the open floor game of the NBA, along with playing alongside much better players, could help Young's game.   People talk about his shooting and shot making, which was definitely eye popping early in the season.  But to me, his best attribute is his passing.  That dude can pass his ass off.  He has Lonzo Ball type vision.   He can make anybody he's playing with, into a better player.  A Pick and Roll attack of Collins and Young, could be lethal.

The big knock on Trae, to me, is his ability to be a leader when he's struggling.  It's almost to the point that opposing PGs are "punking" him.  And his defense is atrocious.  Overall, he has to become physically and mentally tougher.   Once Big 12 coaches really challenged their PGs to really pressure Trae defensively on the ball, he somewhat folded up.  And Lon Krueger did Trae no favors, because once he gave the ball up, he wasn't moving Trae around in the offense to free him up for open shots.  Trae, under better coaching, could be an absolute monster in the NBA.  The shooting, court vison and the range on his shot, cannot be overlooked in today's NBA.  

 

Collin Sexton

Being "punked" is NOT an issue for Collin Sexton.  This dude is a DOG, in the fact that he's going to keep coming at you on both ends of the floor.  He has a Russell Westbrook mentality, without all of the bad shot selection that Russell takes.  Avery Johnson has done a great job in harnessing Collin's aggressiveness.  He doesn't let him completely freelance like Kruger has Young doing, but he does give Collin enough freedom in the offense to show off all of his skill set.

At 6-3, he's as quick and explosive as any guard in college basketball.   It would be VERY INTERESTING to see he and Dennis in a lineup together, running Pick and Roll on either side of the court, much like what James Harden and Chris Paul does in Houston.  Now I'm in NO WAY comparing those 2 to Harden and Paul, but the effect on the Hawks offense could be truly dynamic, when you basically have to guard two guys who can break you completely down off the dribble.  Bud has shown in his tenure in ATL, that he likes the 2 PG attack at times.   So whether Sexton is starting, or coming off the bench, an in-game lineup of . .

Schröder - Sexton - Bazemore - Prince - Collins

 . . would be one of the more interesting lineups, from a speed and attacking standpoint, that the Hawks could throw at people next season.  Most important, it would take the ball handling decisions COMPLETELY out of Baze's hands, and turn him more into a spot up shooter . . which he's done pretty well this season.  If it's proven that Dennis and Collin couldn't play with each other, we now have the option to flip Dennis for a better fitting player . . . ala what Golden State did with Monta Ellis.

 

At the end of the day, I trust Bud more with the point guards, than I do with the bigs.  

Both Young and Sexton have primary initiator value, which is a high value in the NBA.

[Lurker]

I wouldn't mind considering Sexton either, just bringing him along slowly as he has the same flaws that Fox and Smith Jr have.

[Diesel]

14 hours ago, davis171 said:

Duncan as a rookie 100% did not lead that team. So Schlenk finds John Collins at 19 and you are assuming he doesn't know how to draft he is 1for 1 in my book? Do you really think that Ressler hired Schlenk without a plan? You REALLY think Schlenk came to his interview here and said hire me I have no idea how to help you guys win in the future. Schlenk 100% has a plan and it involves not making the guy playing the 5th most minutes by the end of the season (Dwight Howard) a fourth of your cap. So yeah you may not agree with his plan but he has one that the hawks organization liked enough to hire.

Like I have said before.   To make it work you have to have extraordinary circumstances.   San Antonio had 2 1st overall picks injured and 2 more allstar injured before the Duncan draft.   On top of that, They had the third worst record and beat out Boston who had 2 picks in the lottery and a 36 overall chance of getting the first pick.  So to recreate the miracle of the Spurs takes a whole lot.  First you need to draft a player in the military and while he's doing military duty, be bad enough again to get another 1st overall pick.   And then 10 years later, the year after your Military man wins the MVP, have him the other first overall pick go down... and get the #1 pick overall a third time when you don't have the worst record in the League.