The Tank Thread

[davis171]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The Hawks didn't struggle to trade Dwight.  They basically dumped him for scraps to make the team bad.   

That "non All-Star" last year led the Hawks in PER ( 20.8 ) . . Win Share - ( 8.3 )  . . WS/48 ( .181 ) - and was 2nd on the team in Value Over Replacement Player ( VORP ) - 2.7.  Dwight more than did his job here last year and was easily a top 3 center in the East last season. 

What he couldn't control, was how the guards couldn't make simple entry passes in the post to him.  Nor could he control the decisions of the coach not to get him more touches in the post during the playoffs, who valued shooting over legit post play and rebounding.  Bud's coaching during that playoff series vs Washington last year, was atrocious.  Just like it was the previous season, when he couldn't figure out that a tough big like Kris Humphries might have some value, over the better shooting, but much weaker Muscala.  In both instances, he bet on Moose . . and lost.

Even this season, the lack of post touches by Collins this season should scare everyone.  Collins was not only a gifted Pick and Roll player in college, he was very good in the post.  The fact that Collins has only received the ball a total of 22 times in the post this season, is one of the biggest travesties of the season.  How does a player who was one of the most efficient scorers in college basketball, not get to play to his strengths?  So the question now is, can Bud properly develop Collins to his maximum potential?  I truly can't say definitely YES to that question.

 

This takes us to the draft.   I never said that Sexton was a better draft prospect than Ayton or Doncic.  What I do know though, is that if there's any type of player that Bud can develop in his system, it's point guard.  I thought he did a real good job with Teague, by turning him into a more aggressive floor leader that could knock down the 3. 

I hate that Dennis' full development was pretty much wasted this season, because we couldn't have him be "too good" in order to preserve the "tank".  But Bud has done a good job with Dennis.   I had serious doubts that he could get his shot off without space, when he came into the league.  Dennis has worked on his midrange game extensively, and has become a pretty good midrange shooter, even if his long range shooting has tailed off big time since November.

So when you look at this draft, I think that Bud could have the most success developing either Sexton, or Trae Young over the big guys.

 

Trae Young

As much as Young has struggled in Big 12 play, I think the open floor game of the NBA, along with playing alongside much better players, could help Young's game.   People talk about his shooting and shot making, which was definitely eye popping early in the season.  But to me, his best attribute is his passing.  That dude can pass his ass off.  He has Lonzo Ball type vision.   He can make anybody he's playing with, into a better player.  A Pick and Roll attack of Collins and Young, could be lethal.

The big knock on Trae, to me, is his ability to be a leader when he's struggling.  It's almost to the point that opposing PGs are "punking" him.  And his defense is atrocious.  Overall, he has to become physically and mentally tougher.   Once Big 12 coaches really challenged their PGs to really pressure Trae defensively on the ball, he somewhat folded up.  And Lon Krueger did Trae no favors, because once he gave the ball up, he wasn't moving Trae around in the offense to free him up for open shots.  Trae, under better coaching, could be an absolute monster in the NBA.  The shooting, court vison and the range on his shot, cannot be overlooked in today's NBA.  

 

Collin Sexton

Being "punked" is NOT an issue for Collin Sexton.  This dude is a DOG, in the fact that he's going to keep coming at you on both ends of the floor.  He has a Russell Westbrook mentality, without all of the bad shot selection that Russell takes.  Avery Johnson has done a great job in harnessing Collin's aggressiveness.  He doesn't let him completely freelance like Kruger has Young doing, but he does give Collin enough freedom in the offense to show off all of his skill set.

At 6-3, he's as quick and explosive as any guard in college basketball.   It would be VERY INTERESTING to see he and Dennis in a lineup together, running Pick and Roll on either side of the court, much like what James Harden and Chris Paul does in Houston.  Now I'm in NO WAY comparing those 2 to Harden and Paul, but the effect on the Hawks offense could be truly dynamic, when you basically have to guard two guys who can break you completely down off the dribble.  Bud has shown in his tenure in ATL, that he likes the 2 PG attack at times.   So whether Sexton is starting, or coming off the bench, an in-game lineup of . .

Schröder - Sexton - Bazemore - Prince - Collins

 . . would be one of the more interesting lineups, from a speed and attacking standpoint, that the Hawks could throw at people next season.  Most important, it would take the ball handling decisions COMPLETELY out of Baze's hands, and turn him more into a spot up shooter . . which he's done pretty well this season.  If it's proven that Dennis and Collin couldn't play with each other, we now have the option to flip Dennis for a better fitting player . . . ala what Golden State did with Monta Ellis.

 

At the end of the day, I trust Bud more with the point guards, than I do with the bigs.  

Doncic is a guard soooo

[marco102]

On 3/4/2018 at 7:20 PM, Lurker said:

PG13 wasn't PG13 for a while. He has the talent to be that.

If the Hawks actually do fall out of the top 4, which I'm still not sure of (I see 3 maybe 4 wins for the rest of the season), then if Marvin Bagley Jr is there I'm perfectly fine with him (or Jaren Jackson Jr). Later than that, guys like Carter, Miles Bridges, or maybe reaching for Knox (who won't be that early in most cases).

Then if Jontay Porter is there with one of the later picks (as long as he declares), I'd like to take him (especially if you go Bagley Jr, not as much if you go Carter), and two other guys that I'd consider are Landry Shamet and Mo Wagner.

I'm not as sure, with other players.

Now you're on the Landry Shamet bandwagon. I remember you saying you wouldn't select him when I brought him up in the 2018 draft thread.  I'm glad you've come to dark side...lol

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, DBac said:

I was with you on the draft stuff until I got to this. I wholly believe this could compete for the worst defense in the last 5-10 years.

Except that the lineup is not meant to be a defensive one.  It's meant to be an offensive one.  If Dedmon was able to come back, you could substitute either Baze or Prince, and insert Dedmon at center, and move Collins to PF.  Bud has proven that he'll go to that 2 PG lineup at the drop of a dime, in order to get better flow to the offense.

The point is that the NBA has turned into a league in which good to great scoring PGs are leading almost all of these playoff level teams.  To have two very quick PGs who can get to the rim on just about anybody, would improve this team dramatically.

[High5]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

It's exactly what he did though.

If you're going to bottom the team out, any deal made for Dwight had to be one that DIDN'T improve the team, but made it worse.  And if you had to take on a bad contract to do it, so be it . . . in his eyes.

It's an indication that Schlenk intends on playing the lottery for MULTIPLE years, not just one year.  

Put it like this . . . if we draft one of the bigs, do you think Plumlee even is in the rotation next season?  Especially if we cut a deal to bring back Dedmon?

Do you really believe that Schlenk avoided a better deal for Dwight because he wanted to make the team worse? He accepted a crappy deal because that's what it took to get rid of him. Some of you keep talking about Dwight like he has value around the league. 

[MaceCase]

25 minutes ago, High5 said:

Do you really believe that Schlenk avoided a better deal for Dwight because he wanted to make the team worse? He accepted a crappy deal because that's what it took to get rid of him. Some of you keep talking about Dwight like he has value around the league. 

Seriously, I've seen my fair share of conspiracies on this board but this has to be up there.  What world is it plausible that Schlenk said "I don't want any valuable prospects that I could develop, picks that I can use to increase my draft chances, or vets whom I can eventually flip for more picks, I just want a bad player that's not going to affect our own pick."?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

You can have a PER of 30+ and it not matter if you are a poor fit for the team. Keep Dwight and Millsap and I'm doubtful this year is a playoff team even though it was **not tanking** and even in a world in which Millsap's ligaments are good (like I said, I'll buy an injury being fluky if it's a broken bone but stress type injuries...nah).

There is no world in which Dwight had a good year last year though, or even this year. PER is based purely on efficiency and not how good you actually are. 

I threw out 4 advanced stats at you ( PER, WS, WS/48, and VORP ) that all stated that Dwight was more than decent last season.  When you look at the numbers via NBA Efficiency last season by position, you'll see exactly where the Hawks were weak. 

The names listed in Green played above their position and place as a starter or role player.  Players in Black played about what you'd expect as a starter/role player.  The players in Red played below the level as a starter/role player

 

2016 - 17 Hawks

 

PG - Schröder ( 18th )

G - Hardaway Jr ( 22nd )

G - Bazemore ( 34th )

PF - Millsap ( 5th )

C - Howard ( 7th )

 

PG - Delaney ( 62nd )

F - Sefolosha ( 29th )

F - Prince ( 58th )

F - Ilyasova ( 21st )

PF - Muscala ( 58th )

 

Let's not play stupid, and act like Howard was one of the major reasons why this team wasn't successful last season.   When you have a starter ( Bazemore ) playing at the level of a basic bench role player, you're going to have major issues with the team.  The strength of this team was Millsap and Howard, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Get rid of those two, and you have the season we have now.  Millsap and Howard were the heart of the defense.  Take that away, and you suck . . . period.

And once again, I can do the exact same thing, and you can see why the team is where they are now.

 

2017 - 18 Hawks

 

PG - Schröder ( 14th )

G - Bazemore ( 17th ) . . . . wish he played at this level last season. It would've made a hell of a difference 

F - Prince ( 26th )

PF - Ilyasova ( 33rd )

C - Plumlee ( 57th )

 

PG - Delaney ( 63rd ) 

PG - Taylor ( 77th )

G - Belinelli ( 41st )

G - Bembry ( 66th )

G - Dorsey ( 68th )

PF - Muscala ( 51st )

PF - Collins ( 20th )

C - Dedmon ( 22nd )

 

Funny how the two guys who were balling off the bench for most of the year, have just now received a chance to start and play together.  But even with this, their minutes are limited because they can't be "too good".  Gotta keep that tank rolling

( rolling eyes )

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

Seriously, I've seen my fair share of conspiracies on this board but this has to be up there.  What world is it plausible that Schlenk said "I don't want any valuable prospects that I could develop, picks that I can use to increase my draft chances, or vets whom I can eventually flip for more picks, I just want a bad player that's not going to affect our own pick."?

Tankers in the NBA are stupid, so there is no rhyme or reason to what they are thinking.

[MaceCase]

17 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Tankers in the NBA are stupid, so there is no rhyme or reason to what they are thinking.

Riiiiiight, even though what I described is straight out of the Sam Hinkie handbook.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

Do you really believe that Schlenk avoided a better deal for Dwight because he wanted to make the team worse? He accepted a crappy deal because that's what it took to get rid of him. Some of you keep talking about Dwight like he has value around the league. 

He wanted to bottom out the Hawks . . . period.   You have to make salaries close to match in this league, in order to make trades.  It's not like we could trade Dwight and get a few draft picks, because the other team would have to send back a significant salaried player, or a few of them, in order to make the deal work.

Charlotte thought that adding Dwight to their squad would improve them to at least playoff level.  That hasn't materialized the way they thought.  Was it Dwight's fault though?  You decide by looking at the numbers.

 

2017 - 18 Charlotte Hornets

 

PG - Walker ( 8th ) . . has to do way too much to sustain them offensively. He's either great, or below average.

F - Kidd-Gilchrist ( 33rd ) . .  He's simply not ( or incapable of ) producing. He's the defensive opposite of Marvin

F - Batum ( 12th ) . . somewhat misleading, because he's not playing anywhere near he did 2 - 3 years ago.

PF - Williams ( 40th ) . . and it's not that Marvin is playing bad, he's simply not producing. He's the offensive opposite of MKG

C - Howard ( 12th ) . . doing exactly what he did last year. 7th in scoring and 5th in rebounding among centers.

 

 

PG - Carter-Williams ( 70th ) - Can't hit the broad side of a barn. Can't believe he's fallen off like this

G - Graham ( 63rd ) - D-League sensation. Pretty much our version of Dorsey on the NBA level

G - Monk ( 84th ) - Started out great, then couldn't hit anything.  Back and forth from D-League.

G - Lamb ( 18th ) . . has been very solid this year coming off the bench

F - Kamisky ( 44th ) . . too soft around the rim, but is a decent role playing big

[TheNorthCydeRises]

41 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

Seriously, I've seen my fair share of conspiracies on this board but this has to be up there.  What world is it plausible that Schlenk said "I don't want any valuable prospects that I could develop, picks that I can use to increase my draft chances, or vets whom I can eventually flip for more picks, I just want a bad player that's not going to affect our own pick."?

So why did we make the deal?

[Lurker]

37 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I threw out 4 advanced stats at you ( PER, WS, WS/48, and VORP ) that all stated that Dwight was more than decent last season.  When you look at the numbers via NBA Efficiency last season by position, you'll see exactly where the Hawks were weak. 

The names listed in Green played above their position and place as a starter or role player.  Players in Black played about what you'd expect as a starter/role player.  The players in Red played below the level as a starter/role player

 

2016 - 17 Hawks

 

PG - Schröder ( 18th )

G - Hardaway Jr ( 22nd )

G - Bazemore ( 34th )

PF - Millsap ( 5th )

C - Howard ( 7th )

 

PG - Delaney ( 62nd )

F - Sefolosha ( 29th )

F - Prince ( 58th )

F - Ilyasova ( 21st )

PF - Muscala ( 58th )

 

Let's not play stupid, and act like Howard was one of the major reasons why this team wasn't successful last season.   When you have a starter ( Bazemore ) playing at the level of a basic bench role player, you're going to have major issues with the team.  The strength of this team was Millsap and Howard, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Get rid of those two, and you have the season we have now.  Millsap and Howard were the heart of the defense.  Take that away, and you suck . . . period.

And once again, I can do the exact same thing, and you can see why the team is where they are now.

 

2017 - 18 Hawks

 

PG - Schröder ( 14th )

G - Bazemore ( 17th ) . . . . wish he played at this level last season. It would've made a hell of a difference 

F - Prince ( 26th )

PF - Ilyasova ( 33rd )

C - Plumlee ( 57th )

 

PG - Delaney ( 63rd ) 

PG - Taylor ( 77th )

G - Belinelli ( 41st )

G - Bembry ( 66th )

G - Dorsey ( 68th )

PF - Muscala ( 51st )

PF - Collins ( 20th )

C - Dedmon ( 22nd )

 

Funny how the two guys who were balling off the bench for most of the year, have just now received a chance to start and play together.  But even with this, their minutes are limited because they can't be "too good".  Gotta keep that tank rolling

( rolling eyes )

When you're talking about Dwight, throw every single stat in the trash can because that man is hot trash. This would still be a very bad team with Dwight Howard.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

42 minutes ago, Lurker said:

When you're talking about Dwight, throw every single stat in the trash can because that man is hot trash. This would still be a very bad team with Dwight Howard.

If we were going to be a very bad team with Dwight, why did we make the deal?  

Plumlee's contract went 1 year longer than Dwight's.   So you mean that we sacrificed the chance to have 23 million come off the books in the Summer of 2019, to have a net of 10 million come off this season, and just 10 million next season?   Or did you forget that we still owe Plumlee 25 million over the next 2 years?

[davis171]

19 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If we were going to be a very bad team with Dwight, why did we make the deal?  

Plumlee's contract went 1 year longer than Dwight's.   So you mean that we sacrificed the chance to have 23 million come off the books in the Summer of 2019, to have a net of 10 million come off this season, and just 10 million next season?   Or did you forget that we still owe Plumlee 25 million over the next 2 years?

Charlotte hornets 2018 nba champions led by Dwight Howard they will not loose a game the rest of the year! Dude you said he would be playing 30+ min per game if Al had come back why was he playing 25 mpg in the playoffs and rarely in the 4th if you remember?

[MaceCase]

53 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So why did we make the deal?

To clear up cap space, break his salary down to smaller more manageable deals, not have a player on the team that will bristle at not being made a focal point or benched like he already did underneath BudCox's management amongst other previous stops?

A big part of why Charlotte sucks has a lot to do with the fact they've chosen to emphasize Dwight.  Looks great for Dwight but as we can all see, it's not great for the team or any team for that matter in today's NBA.  You're probably going to ask next "well why not keep Dwight and make him a focal point if that leads to losses?"  Well, this is not the Atlanta Dwight showcase.  Charlotte had him on the block despite his stats and had no takers themselves because most have recognized a long time ago that him as a focal point is fool's gold and his ego plus salary are too great to be acceptable as a role player. 

Collecting losses was one part of the goal, having the cap flexibility to capitalize on the global stagnation of the NBA's salary cap was another.

[MaceCase]

35 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If we were going to be a very bad team with Dwight, why did we make the deal?  

Plumlee's contract went 1 year longer than Dwight's.   So you mean that we sacrificed the chance to have 23 million come off the books in the Summer of 2019, to have a net of 10 million come off this season, and just 10 million next season?   Or did you forget that we still owe Plumlee 25 million over the next 2 years?

I can't understand the issues that people have with tanking in stating that it will take forever to bear any fruit while offering alternatives such as sitting on restrictive contracts for a few years until they expire.  You do recognize that all you accomplish by punting a team's proper rebuild years down the line is just adding more years until they'll return to any amount of prominence, correct?

[Lurker]

Charlotte has actually looked their best when Dwight has been utilized as a role player...which is what he is at the moment.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Lurker

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, davis171 said:

Charlotte hornets 2018 nba champions led by Dwight Howard they will not loose a game the rest of the year! Dude you said he would be playing 30+ min per game if Al had come back why was he playing 25 mpg in the playoffs and rarely in the 4th if you remember?

It was dumb coaching on the part of Bud.  Howard averaged 30 minutes a game during the regular season.   Bud tried to get cute, and give Moose extended minutes during the playoffs.  It backfired severely, because Gortat pretty much used him every time he entered the game.  By Game 3, Dwight and the boys had neutralized Gortat.

And once again . . . if Howard was so terrible, why did we trade him for a worse player, and a contract that lasted longer than Dwight's?

[davis171]

19 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

It was dumb coaching on the part of Bud.  Howard averaged 30 minutes a game during the regular season.   Bud tried to get cute, and give Moose extended minutes during the playoffs.  It backfired severely, because Gortat pretty much used him every time he entered the game.  By Game 3, Dwight and the boys had neutralized Gortat.

And once again . . . if Howard was so terrible, why did we trade him for a worse player, and a contract that lasted longer than Dwight's?

You didn't just say 30 mpg you said 30+ mpg he was 5th in minutes played in the playoffs and paid a fourth of the cap please explain? Because we broke up his salary to be players in fa this offseason I told you.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

30 minutes ago, davis171 said:

You didn't just say 30 mpg you said 30+ mpg he was 5th in minutes played in the playoffs and paid a fourth of the cap please explain? Because we broke up his salary to be players in fa this offseason I told you.

Coaching was the reason.  No way should Moose have received those minutes in the playoffs.

And who are we playing for in this offseason?  Who is the target in this offseason that we can realistically get?

Let me rephrase that question.  Who is the guy that you think that we can realistically get?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Charlotte has actually looked their best when Dwight has been utilized as a role player...which is what he is at the moment.

Yep

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_3MllZyrPo

Yep