The Tank Thread

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, KB21 said:

Wrong.

A great head coach brings winning culture with him, and he makes the players who come to that culture better in the process.  That's what we had with Bud, and now we have a coach who is fine with intentionally losing games and establishing a losing culture.

I disagree.   The Culture is not dependent on the HC.  The culture goes higher than that.   Possibly all the way up to ownership. 

The Lakers didn't have a better culture because they hired Walton.  They got a better culture when they hired Magic and Pelinka and got Buss out of there. 

[kg01]

5 hours ago, thecampster said:

Actually, subtract Lebron from the East and it would have gotten us at least one ECF.  Lebron ruined everyone's life for the last 8 years. 

I don't know what this means.  Do we give ourselves credit for a Finals appearance**?

Let's deal with reality, not made-up scenarios.

** If Lebron was never born.

31 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Did we have a great culture???  If we did, why didn't we have ease bringing in free agents. 

The only time that we have had a true culture shift since Nique was when we had Ferry calling the shots.  And even he made mistakes in how he signed talent.

You're saying a lot of stuff here but I'm not following the overall point you're trying to make.

[thecampster]

We lost to Lebron multiple times and should/would have gone to the finals in the 60 win year. Its hard to criticize the 10 year playoff team when you ran into Lebron and the nba preferred matchups back to back years with good teams.  They won 3 series between the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons only to be swept both years by Lebron and the Cavs. There was no way the NBA was allowing the Hawks to go to the finals during that season. The series was extremely physical (Matthew Dellavedova diving at legs, Al's ejection).

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I don't know what this means.  Do we give ourselves credit for a Finals appearance**?

Let's deal with reality, not made-up scenarios.

** If Lebron was never born.

You're saying a lot of stuff here but I'm not following the overall point you're trying to make.

 

[kg01]

19 minutes ago, thecampster said:

We lost to Lebron multiple times and should/would have gone to the finals in the 60 win year. Its hard to criticize the 10 year playoff team when you ran into Lebron and the nba preferred matchups back to back years with good teams.  They won 3 series between the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons only to be swept both years by Lebron and the Cavs. There was no way the NBA was allowing the Hawks to go to the finals during that season. The series was extremely physical (Matthew Dellavedova diving at legs, Al's ejection).

 

Ok, I'm not doing that.  No matter what you choose to believe, the NBA doesn't script out the playoffs.

Should we have maxed out Millsap because, if Lebron wasn't there, he would've been Finals MVP ... we think?  Hmmmm, I think Mike Scott would've balled out in the Finals, if Lebron hadn't beaten us.  Let's re-sign him to a max deal too.  Sure he's not worth it but, hey, he would've been great in the Finals (... we think).

We also lost to the Pacers and Wizards during this epic(sic) run.  Do we leave those years out because they don't match the 'NBA is the WWE' narrative?

[Vol4ever]

On 7/16/2018 at 8:55 AM, Sothron said:

This is what the anti tankers never want to acknowledge. You need superstars to win titles. The only way to get them is draft them, trade for them or sign them as free agents.

The Hawks have NEVER...not ONCE IN FRANCHISE HISTORY signed a superstar free agent. So that is one of the three ways shot down. That leaves trading and signing them. No one wants to come here and with the power players/agents have in determining where they go...we're not trading for one.

So that's strike two. That leaves only one option. Draft them. The best chance to draft them is to have high lottery picks and hope your GM can find that guy.

I have zero confidence in Stink after the bust he drafted this year. So while we once again fail at rebuilding because we have an idiot GM just like last time (Billy Knight and now Stink) the strategy is itself sound.

I agree with this^^^^^^

 

 

[Guard]

“Winning culture” 

Winning culture really means having having high upside talent that can make a team a playoff team for the foreseeable future. Philly now has a winning culture after being horrendous going all the way back to 2013. The Warriors didn’t get a winning culture until Curry, Thompson, and Green showed they can carry a team together. If a strong winning culture was tied to ownership and coaching, the Mavericks would still have one despite not making the playoffs the past two seasons. 

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Guard said:

“Winning culture” 

Winning culture really means having having high upside talent that can make a team a playoff team for the foreseeable future. Philly now has a winning culture after being horrendous going all the way back to 2013. The Warriors didn’t get a winning culture until Curry, Thompson, and Green showed they can carry a team together. If a strong winning culture was tied to ownership and coaching, the Mavericks would still have one despite not making the playoffs the past two seasons. 

Nope.

Having a winning culture means that every single part of the organization is willing to do everything it takes to win and that winning is the ultimate goal.  

You can't have a winning culture when losing is your ultimate goal.

[nathan2331]

Nope.

Having a winning culture means that every single part of the organization is willing to do everything it takes to win and that winning is the ultimate goal.  

You can't have a winning culture when losing is your ultimate goal.

That's subjective though. Even though management wanted to lose loast year, the team was competitive. We didn't have the talent to keep up with most teams, but we played effective basketball at times. We weren't like the Sixers who were getting blown out every game. You can hate the philosophy all you want, but players like Prince and Collins have improved their game despite the rest of the team taking a step back.

 

If we draft well, we'll be in a much better position for the future. Our veterans weren't than valuable before, we could probably sign Millsap back for less than 15 million next summer if we wanted to.

[KB21]

9 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

That's subjective though. Even though management wanted to lose loast year, the team was competitive. We didn't have the talent to keep up with most teams, but we played effective basketball at times. We weren't like the Sixers who were getting blown out every game. You can hate the philosophy all you want, but players like Prince and Collins have improved their game despite the rest of the team taking a step back.

 

If we draft well, we'll be in a much better position for the future. Our veterans weren't than valuable before, we could probably sign Millsap back for less than 15 million next summer if we wanted to.

We didn't and still don't have the talent because management has intentionally structured the roster to not have that talent.  Management is not doing their duty.

[nathan2331]

We didn't and still don't have the talent because management has intentionally structured the roster to not have that talent.  Management is not doing their duty.

Their duty is to bring a championship to Atlanta. That previous team couldn't do it. We were losing key players every off season, what's the point of keeping it together. Horford, Millsap and Howard have all regressed a little or a lot as you'd expect. This rebuild was due.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

We didn't and still don't have the talent because management has intentionally structured the roster to not have that talent.  Management is not doing their duty.

 

Their duty is to bring a championship to Atlanta. That previous team couldn't do it. We were losing key players every off season, what's the point of keeping it together. Horford, Millsap and Howard have all regressed a little or a lot as you'd expect. This rebuild was due.

Their duty is to put the best product on the floor, and not the crap they did this past season and what they are currently still doing.  Intentional losing should NEVER be the goal for anything.

[nathan2331]

Their duty is to put the best product on the floor, and not the crap they did this past season and what they are currently still doing.  Intentional losing should NEVER be the goal for anything.

So you were satisfied with the 10 years of treadmilling? You want to keep a team together that was only getting worse? The point of losing games is to get draft picks. Maybe you're right and the picks won't develop because they won't learn how to win, but that's a coaching issue above anything else.

[KB21]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Their duty is to put the best product on the floor, and not the crap they did this past season and what they are currently still doing.  Intentional losing should NEVER be the goal for anything.

 

So you were satisfied with the 10 years of treadmilling? You want to keep a team together that was only getting worse? The point of losing games is to get draft picks. Maybe you're right and the picks won't develop because they won't learn how to win, but that's a coaching issue above anything else.

As long as the entire organization is trying to win, I'll be satisfied.  I'll never support intentional losing, because intentionally losing to get draft picks doesn't work.

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No, we are doing a Philly style tank that will doom the Hawks for the rest of its existence.

Other teams doomed for the rest of existence:

Cavs tanked shamlessly over a 4 year period between LeBron's departure and return.  The team's reputation was in tatters and no free agent would even consider signing for them.  It brought an end to their long history of playoff success and their play ever since represents a new low for the city of Cleveland.

Houston tanked shamelessly from 2011-13 setting a new low in wins over a 3 year period since the Mets of the 1960's.  This shameful display doomed them and their fans forever.

2011-12 Golden State Warriors tanked shamelessly shutting down Steph Curry and David Lee (both with "injuries" like Baze's last year) and dealing Monta Ellis for someone who wouldn't play.  This enabled them to keep their lottery pick due to its protection and forever tainted the franchise.

https://thebiglead.com/2012/04/10/golden-states-tank-job-to-retain-its-lottery-pick-is-going-swimmingly/

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-warriors-executive-golden-state-200052629.html?src=rss

http://www.businessinsider.com/golden-state-warriors-nba-tanking-2013-5

The Chicago Cubs brought in a new GM who tanked shamelessly in 2012 and 2013, forever tarnishing the franchise and destroying their dreams of success.  After so many championships before the tanking, the Cubs fans were furious about this betrayal of their trust and have never shown any interest in the team since then.

 

[KB21]

None of those situations were true tanks.

[kg01]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Other teams doomed for the rest of existence:

Cavs tanked shamlessly over a 4 year period between LeBron's departure and return.  The team's reputation was in tatters and no free agent would even consider signing for them.  It brought an end to their long history of playoff success and their play ever since represents a new low for the city of Cleveland.

Houston tanked shamelessly from 2011-13 setting a new low in wins over a 3 year period since the Mets of the 1960's.  This shameful display doomed them and their fans forever.

2011-12 Golden State Warriors tanked shamelessly shutting down Steph Curry and David Lee (both with "injuries" like Baze's last year) and dealing Monta Ellis for someone who wouldn't play.  This enabled them to keep their lottery pick due to its protection and forever tainted the franchise.

https://thebiglead.com/2012/04/10/golden-states-tank-job-to-retain-its-lottery-pick-is-going-swimmingly/

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-warriors-executive-golden-state-200052629.html?src=rss

http://www.businessinsider.com/golden-state-warriors-nba-tanking-2013-5

The Chicago Cubs brought in a new GM who tanked shamelessly in 2012 and 2013, forever tarnishing the franchise and destroying their dreams of success.  After so many championships before the tanking, the Cubs fans were furious about this betrayal of their trust and have never shown any interest in the team since then.

 

Nooooo, you're doing it wrong AH.  You're supposed to find a situation you think failed and use that as your example.  You gotta ignore any of them that looked like success stories.

That's how you push an 'agenda'.

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

None of those situations were true tanks.

Losing on purpose to improve your draft situation isn't tanking.  -- KB21 7/17/2018

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Losing on purpose to improve your draft situation isn't tanking.  -- KB21 7/17/2018

Tanking is completely gutting your roster so you will lose games.  What those teams did was not tanking.  They were just bad.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Tanking is completely gutting your roster so you will lose games.  What those teams did was not tanking.  They were just bad.

The rosters of the Cavs, Cubs and Astros beg to differ.  

 

I love watching this cognitive dissonance in action.

"Teams need to try their best to win."

Watches team intentionally trying to lose.

"That isn't tanking."

[KB21]

http://www.astroscounty.com/2016/02/luhnow-did-not-tank.html

Quote

Calling what Luhnow did "tanking" grossly oversimplifies the process. He took over a team that was the worst in the majors, and had already traded its most tradeable assets. The farm system was thin, and the best prospects were several years away. Instead of panicking into a desperate, and futile, bid at mediocrity, he showed patience, and that patience was rewarded. I can't really see any other process that could have worked this well, this quickly.

The Astros did not tank.  They were just bad.

https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2016/2/3/10904106/the-astros-werent-tanking

Quote

Were they horrible at the major league level?  Absolutely.  Did they have the first pick in the draft for three straight years?  Yes.  But a rectangle isn't always a square, and the draft picks were the result of a larger plan involving asset collection, not the single goal of a concerted losing effort.

They say the end justifies the means, but in this case, the means are being misunderstood or misreported for the purpose of having something to be offended or outraged over.  Tanking is a simplistic concept -- an effort to lose games to gain a later competitive advantage through acquiring a better draft pick at the top of a draft.  That wasn't what the Astros did.