The Tank Thread

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

Only in your mind....

Luke Walton, 2 years 

Quinn Snyder - 3 years as NBA assistant

Jason Kidd, Doc River - straight from the court to head coach.

Jason Kidd sucks as a head coach.  Quinn is very good but was also a head coach in college as well as in the G-League.  Luke Walton hasn't had a winning season as a head coach and will likely be fired this year as LeBron will want to bring in one of his buddies to coach the team.  Doc Rivers is an exception to the rule.

[Thomas]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Quinn Snyder - 3 years as NBA assistant

Excellent example and of course woe is us for losing him.

[marco102]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

They didn't have the resources to go into?  Mmmkay.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2013/08/26/2013-houston-astros-baseballs-worst-team-is-most-profitable-in-history/#4af4d9aa34c0

They could have paid for FAs just with their operating income.  

@KB21 Will not address this as you've seen several posts without him addressing it. 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Jason Kidd sucks as a head coach.  Quinn is very good but was also a head coach in college as well as in the G-League.  Luke Walton hasn't had a winning season as a head coach and will likely be fired this year as LeBron will want to bring in one of his buddies to coach the team.  Doc Rivers is an exception to the rule.

That sound you hear is the moving of the goal posts, ladies and gentlemen.

At this point, I don't blame him anymore.  I blame us.

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

That sound you hear is the moving of the goal posts, ladies and gentlemen.

At this point, I don't blame him anymore.  I blame us.

I have no more Likes to give sir!  But LIKE!

[JayBirdHawk]

31 minutes ago, kg01 said:

That sound you hear is the moving of the goal posts, ladies and gentlemen.

At this point, I don't blame him anymore.  I blame us.

[thecampster]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

So, it is beyond obvious that most of you have been influenced by the media's glorification of tanking and believe that rebuilding = tanking,

Dude, if my explanation didn't make it clear, you are driving a golf ball into a hurricane.  The definition being used on this board for "tanking" is any time you give up talent and win less, irregardless of what you looked like before hand.  You aren't winning this argument because the board has a definition problem and one they are willing to learn. 

 

The GSW example used earlier of how they drafted their top 4 players ignores the fact one of those players was replaced in the starting lineup the next year and that another was not drafted in the first round. It also ignores the fact that we've said repeatedly that drafting is important, but that we've also said scouting and development are the ways to win the draft, not purposely losing talent to try and gain some in a higher pick.

 

The easy answer is this. I have a dollar. Tanking is purposely giving that dollar to a cashier for 4 quarters. I plant those quarters in the yard hoping 2 of the 4 grow in to a dollar each.  Rebuilding is taking that dollar and investing it in gas for my lawn mower so I can mow my neighbor's yard and make 10 dollars.

they aren't*

[thecampster]

In both cases I gave up the dollar. The difference is in how and when I expect to make returns.

[KB21]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

Dude, if my explanation didn't make it clear, you are driving a golf ball into a hurricane.  The definition being used on this board for "tanking" is any time you give up talent and win less, irregardless of what you looked like before hand.  You aren't winning this argument because the board has a definition problem and one they are willing to learn. 

 

The GSW example used earlier of how they drafted their top 4 players ignores the fact one of those players was replaced in the starting lineup the next year and that another was not drafted in the first round. It also ignores the fact that we've said repeatedly that drafting is important, but that we've also said scouting and development are the ways to win the draft, not purposely losing talent to try and gain some in a higher pick.

 

The easy answer is this. I have a dollar. Tanking is purposely giving that dollar to a cashier for 4 quarters. I plant those quarters in the yard hoping 2 of the 4 grow in to a dollar each.  Rebuilding is taking that dollar and investing it in gas for my lawn mower so I can mow my neighbor's yard and make 10 dollars.

they aren't*

I can actually drive a golf ball into a hurricane.  

[CBAreject]

On 7/17/2018 at 11:46 AM, KB21 said:

None of those situations were true tanks.

Lol

[kg01]

17 hours ago, KB21 said:

I can actually drive a golf ball into a hurricane.  

Ooooh.  I bet when opportunity knocks, if you're not home, opportunity waits.

:rolls_eyes

[thecampster]

So pointing this out in the appropriate thread.  The Alex Len signing is an example why rebuild (2-3 year rebuild) is a much better strategy than tanking.

Len is a 1st round draft pick taken #5 overall. He plays his 5 years with Phoenix, hits 25 (just before/entering his prime) and he leaves because Phoenix takes a player 1st overall. This is how the treadmill works. He's a quality NBA level player but something prettier comes along and he no longer fits into your plans.  He was an unfinished product who hadn't proven himself worthy of that 5th overall pick. He's a fine player, but became a victim of the salary cap.

Scouting, scouting, scouting. He's more of a mid-first round talent (still a fine player) and needed a team dedicated to developing him.  I think he's found that with us, but I digress. This right here is the problem with tanking, with 5-7 year plans. Unloading vets to get younger and better with the cap is a great idea but bottoming out a roster and not surrounding those young players with vets who can teach them the NBA game creates situations like Len. Our gain at a very reasonable price but Phoenix is paying the common price of a wasted draft pick. They've been bad since the 2012-13 season except for one winning season in 13-14.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, thecampster said:

So pointing this out in the appropriate thread.  The Alex Len signing is an example why rebuild (2-3 year rebuild) is a much better strategy than tanking.

Len is a 1st round draft pick taken #5 overall. He plays his 5 years with Phoenix, hits 25 (just before/entering his prime) and he leaves because Phoenix takes a player 1st overall. This is how the treadmill works. He's a quality NBA level player but something prettier comes along and he no longer fits into your plans.  He was an unfinished product who hadn't proven himself worthy of that 5th overall pick. He's a fine player, but became a victim of the salary cap.

Scouting, scouting, scouting. He's more of a mid-first round talent (still a fine player) and needed a team dedicated to developing him.  I think he's found that with us, but I digress. This right here is the problem with tanking, with 5-7 year plans. Unloading vets to get younger and better with the cap is a great idea but bottoming out a roster and not surrounding those young players with vets who can teach them the NBA game creates situations like Len. Our gain at a very reasonable price but Phoenix is paying the common price of a wasted draft pick. They've been bad since the 2012-13 season except for one winning season in 13-14.

Phoenix has a string of these draft mishaps/player development mishaps.  Alex Len, Dragan Bender, trading for Marquis Chriss, Josh Jackson.

Phoenix has had either poor scouting or poor player development.  Atlanta hired their player development coach as well.

[KB21]

9 hours ago, LamarHampton said:

Meh... Doesn't move the needle much but honestly was hoping for some more tomato cans (for you boxing or wrestling fans out there) since we are still aiming for a high lottery pick, right? I hope Len gets with the program this year and misses every rebound and  put back, but next year plays for real. I'm not really for a losing mentality, but since we are already here... May as well own it. Moving the needle (slightly) in the wrong direction. Normally would be fine with this signing, but in this particular year would prefer Kaba or even *gulp* Jock Lawndummy.

This is exactly how you build a losing mentality and extend your stay on the never ending lottery treadmill.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This is exactly how you build a losing mentality and extend your stay on the never ending lottery treadmill.

You took the words right out of my mouth...That was a terrible post and was my biggest fear regarding the Hawks fan base.  The mere notion that the fan base would be ripping the Hawk organization for picking a good player that would threaten a desire to lose is just appalling!

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You took the words right out of my mouth...That was a terrible post and was my biggest fear regarding the Hawks fan base.  The mere notion that the fan base would be ripping the Hawk organization for picking a good player that would threaten a desire to lose is just appalling!

All the pro tankers believe that the Hawks can lose wildly to collect talent and then flip a switch and go into "winning mode" when they feel like they have the talent in place.  They completely dismiss the fact that all young players have a learning curve when they come to the NBA.  Some have a longer learning curve than others, and typically, it takes point guards longer to learn how to play in the NBA than other positions.  Then, when you take into account that, based on where the Hawks picked this past year and where they will be picking in the next two drafts, you are adding 19-20 year old players and not 22-23 year old players.  That makes the learning curve a little bit longer as well even if the upside is higher (with a lower downside as well).  The Hawks are going to have more than $50 million in cap space next year and will not be a free agent destination because of their team building philosophy at this point.

[KB21]

I would not be me if I did not point this out again, but the Phoenix Suns are a textbook for why this strategy of building through the lottery doesn't work even if this past season was the only year they truly tanked.  You have to be able to develop the players you draft, and Phoenix has not done a good job with the development part of that equation.  

And it just so happens that the Hawks head lackey, I mean head coach hired one of Phoenix's player development coaches to be on the Hawks staff, Marlon Garnett.

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I would not be me if I did not point this out again, but the Phoenix Suns are a textbook for why this strategy of building through the lottery doesn't work even if this past season was the only year they truly tanked.  You have to be able to develop the players you draft, and Phoenix has not done a good job with the development part of that equation.  

And it just so happens that the Hawks head lackey, I mean head coach hired one of Phoenix's player development coaches to be on the Hawks staff, Marlon Garnett.

So a team that tanked for the first time last year and hasn’t played a single game since starting to tank is the textbook example of how a team that tanks destroys its player development?  Sounds like they are a textbook example of organizational incompetence which had nothing to do with tanking or not tanking.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

So a team that tanked for the first time last year and hasn’t played a single game since starting to tank is the textbook example of how a team that tanks destroys its player development?  Sounds like they are a textbook example of organizational incompetence which had nothing to do with tanking or not tanking.

Part of that organizational incompetence is the willingness to go into the lottery and use it as a team builder.

[Peoriabird]

17 minutes ago, KB21 said:

All the pro tankers believe that the Hawks can lose wildly to collect talent and then flip a switch and go into "winning mode" when they feel like they have the talent in place.  They completely dismiss the fact that all young players have a learning curve when they come to the NBA.  Some have a longer learning curve than others, and typically, it takes point guards longer to learn how to play in the NBA than other positions.  Then, when you take into account that, based on where the Hawks picked this past year and where they will be picking in the next two drafts, you are adding 19-20 year old players and not 22-23 year old players.  That makes the learning curve a little bit longer as well even if the upside is higher (with a lower downside as well).  The Hawks are going to have more than $50 million in cap space next year and will not be a free agent destination because of their team building philosophy at this point.

I only partially agree with you.  Your summary is too intellectually stated!  What that poster posted was not.  It was an emotional response to a move to signing a young player with size and some talent who might be a useful future asset on a winning team.  Sounds like he is too blinded by his convictions to losing and see the signing as an immediate obstacle to his dream of what he thinks should take place this season which is trying to win the lottery yet again.  The question for guys like this is when does it stop?  For some reason fans on this site have fallen in love with the destruction process to the point where its never enough.  We have 3 lottery picks on the team now with 1 that should have been and its still not enough. we will get 2 possible 3 more next year but will that be enough?  I say the posters that want this team to continue to lose this year are going too far.