The Tank Thread

[AHF]

Just now, Diesel said:

Who knew that Jared Sullinger was that damn good?

His health is the only reason he fell in the draft.  Saved some teams some serious regret.  If you remember, he was considered a no-brainer lottery pick and possible top 5 pick and then he was red flagged for back issues and fell like a rock to 21.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

His health is the only reason he fell in the draft.  Saved some teams some serious regret.  If you remember, he was considered a no-brainer lottery pick and possible top 5 pick and then he was red flagged for back issues and fell like a rock to 21.

He also posted a 1.5 and 1.6 VORP in his age 22 and 23 seasons in the NBA, and then injuries took their toll.  That 1.5 and 1.6 VORP is better than any season Andrew Wiggins has ever put up.

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

John Collins

When???

Bird... i think you fail to understand this about defenders... Most of them come with the skills and those skills can't be grown in the league.  A guy can get better and stronger but You're not going to make a guy into a rim protector.  You're not going to make a guy into a positionally good defender.  I think you'll get better effort from guys but if a guy doesn't have the skillset, he doesn't have it.   Period.  That's why Threezus never made an alldefense team.   Don't you think he wanted to be a better defender? Don't you think his competitive nature wanted him to stop getting posterized?  For moments, you could see him sitting back in our defense putting fourth more effort but whether it was positional knowledge or feetwork or whathave you.. he just didn't have it naturally.  That's why a guy like Worm could get 18 rebounds a night and slow down most scorers... it's natural.  he came with that.   You keep thinking that Collins who has been turrible at defense all his life is going to all the sudden change up and become draymond green because he's a pro?  Stop dreaming. 

 

 

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

When???

Bird... i think you fail to understand this about defenders... Most of them come with the skills and those skills can't be grown in the league.  A guy can get better and stronger but You're not going to make a guy into a rim protector.  You're not going to make a guy into a positionally good defender.  I think you'll get better effort from guys but if a guy doesn't have the skillset, he doesn't have it.   Period.  That's why Threezus never made an alldefense team.   Don't you think he wanted to be a better defender? Don't you think his competitive nature wanted him to stop getting posterized?  For moments, you could see him sitting back in our defense putting fourth more effort but whether it was positional knowledge or feetwork or whathave you.. he just didn't have it naturally.  That's why a guy like Worm could get 18 rebounds a night and slow down most scorers... it's natural.  he came with that.   You keep thinking that Collins who has been turrible at defense all his life is going to all the sudden change up and become draymond green because he's a pro?  Stop dreaming. 

 

 

Who was Collins Guarding last night?  Was it J. Johnson?  How many points did he score?

[Peoriabird]

What about the night before?  Was it Gordon?  How many points dd he score??

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

Didn't mean to offend.  I thought you were arguing the team had not done things that should have been done in order to save money.  You might as well now be arguing that the team only didn't max Moose to save money.  Who cares what they didn't do if doing it was a bad idea in the first place?

Plus, you can understand my confusion that I thought you implied the team had not done something you thought they should have done:

 

 

 

 

 

They say I recap old post.   Let me say.  Did I think we should have resigned THJr.. yes... last summer... I did.  I thought that we should have made him an offer as early as we could.  I didn't expect the knicks to give him what they did but I still think he has the ability to be a star in our system.   That said, when the owners didn't resign him or Sap.. they saved money.   Did I think they should have matched Sap?  Only if they were going to field a competitive team... i.e. make some trades and get some players that can win in here.  Or if they had plans to trade Sap for something down the road.  

The things that hurt us most...  Keeping Dennis and resigning Baze to as much as he got. 

Baze still may prove me wrong and be the best 2 way player this side of the claw but he has to prove it. 

A few days ago when I said that the owners saved money I was making a recap for the sake of saying that in the future since we're in firesale mode, we will save more money and probably run the team on the cheap. 

 

[Peoriabird]

What about the night before that?  Was It Saric?  How many points did he score???

[KB21]

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

He also posted a 1.5 and 1.6 VORP in his age 22 and 23 seasons in the NBA, and then injuries took their toll.  That 1.5 and 1.6 VORP is better than any season Andrew Wiggins has ever put up.

Yeah - his career per36 of 16 points and 11 rebounds was pretty useful.  Advanced metrics line up with that.  Defense for him was a predictable issue but he gave some useful minutes before his back retired him.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Who was Collins Guarding last night?  Was it J. Johnson?  How many points did he score?

Yawn Man.   Collins is not a very good defender and never has be.  What I hope is that he finds his spot and learns his role and maximizes his ability at that... but I don't see him ever being on an all defensive team.  Hell, Threezus probably looked damn good against said opponent on any given night... did that mean that he was a good defender???  Yawn!!

[Peoriabird]

12 minutes ago, KB21 said:

He also posted a 1.5 and 1.6 VORP in his age 22 and 23 seasons in the NBA, and then injuries took their toll.  That 1.5 and 1.6 VORP is better than any season Andrew Wiggins has ever put up.

Please Sullinger was not a lottery talent...Probably not even a 1st round talent

Just now, Diesel said:

Yawn Man.   Collins is not a very good defender and never has be.  What I hope is that he finds his spot and learns his role and maximizes his ability at that... but I don't see him ever being on an all defensive team.  Hell, Threezus probably looked damn good against said opponent on any given night... did that mean that he was a good defender???  Yawn!!

Based on what?

[KB21]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Please Sullinger was not a lottery talent...Probably not even a 1st round talent

Then, apparently Wiggins is a 2nd round talent then, because he has a career negative VORP at this point.  Sullinger has the 11th highest VORP of his draft class.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

They say I recap old post.   Let me say.  Did I think we should have resigned THJr.. yes... last summer... I did.  I thought that we should have made him an offer as early as we could.  I didn't expect the knicks to give him what they did but I still think he has the ability to be a star in our system.   That said, when the owners didn't resign him or Sap.. they saved money.   Did I think they should have matched Sap?  Only if they were going to field a competitive team... i.e. make some trades and get some players that can win in here.  Or if they had plans to trade Sap for something down the road.  

The things that hurt us most...  Keeping Dennis and resigning Baze to as much as he got. 

Baze still may prove me wrong and be the best 2 way player this side of the claw but he has to prove it. 

A few days ago when I said that the owners saved money I was making a recap for the sake of saying that in the future since we're in firesale mode, we will save more money and probably run the team on the cheap. 

 

That was the whole issue.  I pointed out that our opening day payroll was higher this year than last year.  Then you posted that they cheaply didn't resign THJr (which was consistent with your proposed alternative roster for this season from a couple weeks ago in this thread where you suggested they keep THJr).  When a team passes on someone who they ought not to resign and their total payroll goes up, I find it hard to process that the fact that we were not looking to be competitive this season as having driven us into a significantly reduced payroll since we were willing to pay significant dead money.  That suggests the issue to me is less about budget and more about direction of the team.

[Peoriabird]

Just now, KB21 said:

Then, apparently Wiggins is a 2nd round talent then, because he has a career negative VORP at this point.  Sullinger has the 11th highest VORP of his draft class.

Why are you bring up Wiggins...I said at that time that Wiggins didn't pass the eye test either!!!

[buckyboy2]

9 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Again, give me examples of poor college defenders like Bagley and Ayton that became good defenders in the NBA.

 Team defense is more important than individual defense in the NBA imo..(Just look how much better korver was here). Hell, lebron elevated bad defense to an artform when he came in, one of the worst at his position. He only really bought in when they got bounced in 07...Klay Thompson, DEmarcus Cousins, Blake griffin, Andrew Bynum,etc, were also pretty horrible defenders coming in who got better...

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yawn Man.   Collins is not a very good defender and never has be.  What I hope is that he finds his spot and learns his role and maximizes his ability at that... but I don't see him ever being on an all defensive team.  Hell, Threezus probably looked damn good against said opponent on any given night... did that mean that he was a good defender???  Yawn!!

I find it hilarious that y'all bag on Collin's defense even though his defensive rating is better than Paul Millsap's rating this year.  LOL!!!!

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Why are you bring up Wiggins...I said at that time that Wiggins didn't pass the eye test either!!!

Sullinger was a projected lottery pick and fell to #21 in the first round after major red flag back issues were ID'd.  He was an obvious first round pick both in fact and projection.  His career 16.2 PER, .113 WS/48, and every other metric say his production was 1st round worthy even with his shortened career.

Despite his back basically dying after his 4th year in the league, he still ranks #19 for minutes played for  his draft class, top 10 in PPG, top 3 in RPG, tied for top 10 WS/48, and top 14 (i.e., lottery range) for career win shares.

A no brainer 1st round talent.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Sullinger was a projected lottery pick and fell to #21 in the first round after major red flag back issues were ID'd.  He was an obvious first round pick both in fact and projection.  His career 16.2 PER, .113 WS/48, and every other metric say his production was 1st round worthy even with his shortened career.

Despite his back basically dying after his 4th year in the league, he still ranks #19 for minutes played for  his draft class, top 10 in PPG, top 3 in RPG, tied for top 10 WS/48, and top 14 (i.e., lottery range) for career win shares.

A no brainer 1st round talent.

There you go with robotic numbers again...Dude was never starter quality in the NBA Sorry!

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

There you go with robotic numbers again...Dude was never starter quality in the NBA Sorry!

You realize most 1st round picks aren't starters, right?  You give me your list of 30 starters from that draft class and then let's talk.

[DBac]

WCJ not a lottery pick? He was considered a potential lottery pick before Bagley committed to Duke. wtf.. He and Duke even played better in Bagley's absence tbh.

 

Cleveland's defense sucks because of their lack of good defensive bigs. Lucky for them Lebron's still one of the best offensive players in the NBA and they have all the shooting in the world.

 

It's very rare for players to go from really bad to good on defense but it's possible. But wouldn't you want to bet on a guy who has actually shown some ability in that area rather than just saying he'll figure it out? 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by DBac