Hawksquawk is back up, Welcome to the Bagley Zone

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

Please give me an example. That’s all I want. I have never heard of anyone making significant strides in either unless they were already in bad shape. If you’re constantly in bad shape after 3 years of pro ball BEFORE you get that “grown man” weight, he’s going to be in trouble.

It is called muscle mass, lean body fat, a different kind of workout to make you leaner yet stronger. This almost always involves cross training of some type. Very few 19 year old NBA players are at the peak strength, quickness, and endurance when they are drafted. Ray Allen was probably more fit at 32 than any 19 year old drafted the same year he turned 32.

[EazyRoc]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

It is called muscle mass, lean body fat, a different kind of workout to make you leaner yet stronger. This almost always involves cross training of some type. Very few 19 year old NBA players are at the peak strength, quickness, and endurance when they are drafted. Ray Allen was probably more fit at 32 than any 19 year old drafted the same year he turned 32.

Wrong. Most 19 aren’t at peak strength and endurance true. Most don’t get quicker. Please give me an example otherwise. Also! Most 19 year olds aren’t 3 year pros too. Meaning he’s been on professional exercise regiments for the last 3 years. The only way he could improve in that department where it’d have a positive effect on his game is if he lost weight.

[JayBirdHawk]

15 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

Please give me an example. That’s all I want. I have never heard of anyone making significant strides in either unless they were already in bad shape. If you’re constantly in bad shape after 3 years of pro ball BEFORE you get that “grown man” weight, he’s going to be in trouble.

No one is saying he will ever be a great athlete even with training, just that there are ways for him to make a measurable improvement on his quickness, agility and explosiveness with the proper training and weight loss.

https://blog.haloneuro.com/four-nba-go-to-training-drills-to-accelerate-your-basketball-athleticism-2d382fbcf9c9

http://www.stack.com/a/cross-training-prepared-dallas-mavericks-dirk-nowitzki-for-basketball

https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/6-training-tips-and-techniques-pro-athletes-use-stay-fit-forever/

Why the focus so much on him beating his man off the dribble?  Important to a degree yes, but the strength of his game is in his passing ability and setting up his teammates in the flow of an offense. Not one on one ISO play.

And I'm not ADVOCATING for taking him, just saying.

[EazyRoc]

Someone posted a third party article about this but the reason why “potential” is often applied to super athletic players is because athleticism really can’t be taught or trained. The league today is so athletic gone are the days when you could cash checks with JUST skills alone. Again, Luka has played extremely well in ACB and deserves a long look as an option for someone in the lottery. Dude would probably be a monster over the next 3-4 years in Cleveland next to LeBron. He’s not the lead dog people are thinking he is, IMO. I truly don’t ever see him being star level. Someone who could have a long 10-12 year career and make 1-3 ASGs as a reserve. 

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, EazyRoc said:

Wrong. Most 19 aren’t at peak strength and endurance true. Most don’t get quicker. Please give me an example otherwise. Also! Most 19 year olds aren’t 3 year pros too. Meaning he’s been on professional exercise regiments for the last 3 years. The only way he could improve in that department where it’d have a positive effect on his game is if he lost weight.

I do not care if he has 3 years in the NBA. A males peak is between 25 and 32. Some start losing higher amounts of testosterone sooner others later. But at 19 he has not come close to hitting his peak. I am talking about sports science not a judgement call based on a kids physical appearance.

John Stockton could not dunk. He says he could but no one ever saw him do it in a game. But at 28 he ran circles around 90% of all the NBA Guards he faced.. Rookies or vets.

[EazyRoc]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No one is saying he will ever be a great athlete even with training, just that there are ways for him to make a measurable improvement on his quickness, agility and explosiveness with the proper training and weight loss.

https://blog.haloneuro.com/four-nba-go-to-training-drills-to-accelerate-your-basketball-athleticism-2d382fbcf9c9

http://www.stack.com/a/cross-training-prepared-dallas-mavericks-dirk-nowitzki-for-basketball

https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/6-training-tips-and-techniques-pro-athletes-use-stay-fit-forever/

Why the focus so much on him beating his man off the dribble?  Important to a degree yes, but the strength of his game is in his passing ability and setting up his teammates in the flow of an offense. Not one on one ISO play.

And I'm not ADVOCATING for taking him, just saying.

Because you want your lead dog to have that capability. Bigs in the NBA are getting quicker and better against the PnR and I don’t feel Doncic will be capable of consistently winning the switches either. Also, the most effective passers are able to force defenders to help and then create opportunities for others. That’s why I think it’s so important.

[EazyRoc]

3 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I do not care if he has 3 years in the NBA. A males peak is between 25 and 32. Some start losing higher amounts of testosterone sooner others later. But at 19 he has not come close to hitting his peak. I am talking about sports science not a judgement call based on a kids physical appearance.

John Stockton could not dunk. He says he could but no one ever saw him do it in a game. But at 28 he ran circles around 90% of all the NBA Guards he faced.. Rookies or vets.

John Stockton played 20 years ago. The game has changed. I’ve acknowledged that no person is at their athletic peak at 19. However, athleticism just is whether you are a top athlete at 19 or not. Speed/Quickness/Vertical don’t really improve in a meaningful way and I would love to see just ONE example where it has please. 

[Buzzard]

Just now, EazyRoc said:

John Stockton played 20 years ago. The game has changed. I’ve acknowledged that no person is at their athletic peak at 19. However, athleticism just is whether you are a top athlete at 19 or not. Speed/Quickness/Vertical don’t really improve in a meaningful way and I would love to see just ONE example where it has please. 

What you are asking for is not documented in the NBA. NBA players only have one rookie combine; there is no veteran combine. I am sure their are numerous examples of Olympic Athletes posting their career best a whole lot later in age than 19. Probably all the Olympic records, minus gymnastics, are held by athletes older than 19.

[EazyRoc]

Just now, Buzzard said:

What you are asking for is not documented in the NBA. NBA players only have one rookie combine; there is no veteran combine. I am sure their are numerous examples of Olympic Athletes posting their career best a whole lot later in age than 19. Probably all the Olympic records, minus gymnastics, are held by athletes older than 19.

Ok. Just one person you feel like through your own honest observation improved speed, quickness, first step. Give me something other than high hopes. Again Doncic won’t be terrible, but he’s not a star in the NBA. 

[High5]

16 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

I mean you can make the case of a lot of players getting meaningfully stronger over the course of their careers (Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, Chris Bosh, LeBron James, etc) Quickness, speed, vertical can be improved from a measurement standpoint sure. However, who has really made meaningful strides and overcame what was seen as a weakness ? I’m really and truly drawing blanks. I can’t think of someone seriously.

He's not going to turn those things into strengths if that's what you're asking. But you can look at guy likes Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, and Carmelo Anthony who carved out great careers without plus quickness/explosiveness on the perimeter. And with the officiating and spacing of today's NBA it's even less important. 

[Buzzard]

Just now, EazyRoc said:

Ok. Just one person you feel like through your own honest observation improved speed, quickness, first step. Give me something other than high hopes. Again Doncic won’t be terrible, but he’s not a star in the NBA. 

Nique at 25, Dr J at 25, Larry Bird at 25 where all better athletically than at 19. This is really not even a fair debate. At 19 KG was a skinny kid who averaged 10, 6, and 1.6 in 28 mpg. Kevin Love, the classic non athlete at 20 averaged 11 and 9.

They all got bigger, faster, quicker, stronger, and had more endurance at 25.

[EazyRoc]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

Nique at 25, Dr J at 25, Larry Bird at 25 where all better athletically than at 19. This is really not even a fair debate. At 19 KG was a skinny kid who averaged 10, 6, and 1.6 in 28 mpg. Kevin Love, the classic non athlete at 20 averaged 11 and 9.

They all got bigger, faster, quicker, stronger, and had more endurance at 25.

Can’t comment on the older players. KG was ultra athletic but super skinny coming out. He just got stronger. He didn’t get faster or quicker. Kevin Love just lost weight.

[EazyRoc]

8 minutes ago, High5 said:

He's not going to turn those things into strengths if that's what you're asking. But you can look at guy likes Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, and Carmelo Anthony who carved out great careers without plus quickness/explosiveness on the perimeter. And with the officiating and spacing of today's NBA it's even less important. 

He’s not on any of those guys level athletically at similar points in their careers. It’s not that he’s average. The problem is that he’s below average. The proof is in his tape. Unless he develops a KILLER shot, he’s not a perennial All Star.

[Buzzard]

Just now, EazyRoc said:

Can’t comment on the older players. KG was ultra athletic but super skinny coming out. He just got stronger. He didn’t get faster or quicker. Kevin Love just lost weight.

Everything you are saying goes against every Olympic record on the books; and that includes speed records. In a nutshell, you are arguing to be arguing. I can give you records in speed all day long that are run by young adults and not 19 year old kids. But somehow you think that the speed increase only happens in the Olympics. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[EazyRoc]

Just now, Buzzard said:

Everything you are saying goes against every Olympic record on the books; and that includes speed records. In a nutshell, you are arguing to be arguing. I can give you records in speed all day long that are run by young adults and not 19 year old kids. But somehow you think that the speed increase only happens in the Olympics. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Nah. You are arguing to be arguing. We are talking about basketball and not olympics. I asked you a question and invalidated your response. Now I don’t know what I’m talking about. Whatever bro. 

[High5]

3 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

He’s not on any of those guys level athletically at similar points in their careers. It’s not that he’s average. The problem is that he’s below average. The proof is in his tape. Unless he develops a KILLER shot, he’s not a perennial All Star.

We'll just have to agree to disagree at this point. 

[EazyRoc]

9 minutes ago, High5 said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree at this point. 

Fair enough

[Sothron]

43 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

Nah. You are arguing to be arguing. We are talking about basketball and not olympics. I asked you a question and invalidated your response. Now I don’t know what I’m talking about. Whatever bro. 

You honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about. People reach their physical peak in their mid twenties. They are in fact faster and quicker on average at that time then when they are 19 years old. I'm not trying to be offensive but what you are saying is just simply wrong.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

Clippers rumored to be looking to trade up so they can take Porter Jr. They also have their eyes on Mikal, Jackson, and Young if they cannot move up to take Porter. Knicks are rumored to be possible trade partners as everyone of those players is expected to be gone by 12 and 13 when the Clippers pick.

If the Clippers and Jerry West are sold on Porter; that has to give some credence to him being worthy of our 3rd pick. The two SF's, Porter and Makal, are said to be their primary targets. Two picks to move up only three spots to 9 is pretty steep but the Knicks also are high on the Villanova star SF; and he won't be there at 12 or 13.

Somehow this important post was overlooked but glad you shared it !

 

im done with changing my board up and I’m all in for porter jr. yeah I’m not shocked those teams see value in him ! And let me rephrase and say I’m all for porter jr as long as he’s healthy 

[JTB]

Just now, JTB said:

Somehow this important post was overlooked but glad you shared it !

 

im done with changing my board up and I’m all in for porter jr. yeah I’m not shocked those teams see value in him ! And let me rephrase and say I’m all for porter jr as long as he’s healthy 

To add I think I’m one of the only ones that believe Mikal should be a top 5 pick so I wouldn’t mind him either