Hawksquawk is back up, Welcome to the Bagley Zone

[Flight]

21 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Boy is Curry a defensive liability in these playoffs...Do not draft Young please;  The game is controlled by the wings and the 4!

You’re saying this about literal most important player to their team and the main reason their team even got to the point they are today. If Trae Young accomplished half of what Steph did he’d arguably be the greatest Hawk PG of all time lol

[kg01]

28 minutes ago, Flight said:

You’re saying this about literal most important player to their team and the main reason their team even got to the point they are today. If Trae Young accomplished half of what Steph did he’d arguably be the greatest Hawk PG of all time lol

This is all true.

Too bad, IMHO, Young ain't Curry.

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, Flight said:

When has it ever mattered how tall a player is without shoes?

Uhhhhhhh...what a streetball game never broke out where y’all kick your shoes off and ball caveman style?

 

we did that once or twice in the 90’s in high school to toughen us up. I felt pretty good except my feet were sore the next day but I felt like I was more centered and balanced when in an actual game. Next time we tried it out at the local park to see if the no shoe training worked....mixed results... I had a few nice dimes and a couple boards and a trey, but I knew the training didn’t entirely work when a Mexican drunk dude in his 40’s was nailing Olajuwon fadeaways on me with a cigarette in his mouth. He stunk of some kind of 40. Mickey’s perhaps. St. Ides? (Which their passion fruit wine cooler was the $hit mind you..long live Pac).

 

 

Long story long...in the NBA it doesn’t matter without shoes...regardless Bagley is gonna be a star...4 time all star minimum in my mind but I’d guess a 6+ times all star. He has IT. I can’t even seem to compare him to anyone in the past..Bosh with a ton more activity but not as long. He attacks the hoop like Tom chambers/Amare a bit. I’d choose him, but I also think Bamba is gonna be a stud. They compare him to Gobert but he’s ahead in offense I don’t care what the numbers suggest at Texas...he’s a smooth operator on O which is scary given the prowess on D. Bagley..Bamba..and Porter is most likely a future all star..bit of Tmac and a bit like others have said like Durant etc. 

[Spud2nique]

28 minutes ago, kg01 said:

This is all true.

Too bad, IMHO, Young ain't Curry.

He sees crazy angles kg. You can’t deny that. His vision is much better than Steph in my opinion. Curry finds the open man with somewhat good passes but never a pass that is at angles that are as incredible as Trae. He’s got Nash vision. He’s gonna make it too. For people that say he can’t make it due to size, im not buying it. Muggsy Bogues/SpudWebb/Gary Grant/ Earl Boykins/ just to name a few. I understand they were a bit in the past but it’s about what skill you bring to a game. Trae has the skill and the intelligence to adjust to the nba game. I wouldn’t bet against him. 

 

[kg01]

12 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

He sees crazy angles kg. You can’t deny that. His vision is much better than Steph in my opinion. Curry finds the open man with somewhat good passes but never a pass that is at angles that are as incredible as Trae. He’s got Nash vision. He’s gonna make it too. For people that say he can’t make it due to size, im not buying it. Muggsy Bogues/SpudWebb/Gary Grant/ Earl Boykins/ just to name a few. I understand they were a bit in the past but it’s about what skill you bring to a game. Trae has the skill and the intelligence to adjust to the nba game. I wouldn’t bet against him. 

 

What?  He sees dead people too?

Sorry, I'm not buying all that translates when he's on the court with better players.

[kg01]

Let's not overthink this thang.

#MVPorterJr

[GameTime]

53 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

He sees crazy angles kg. You can’t deny that. His vision is much better than Steph in my opinion. Curry finds the open man with somewhat good passes but never a pass that is at angles that are as incredible as Trae. He’s got Nash vision. He’s gonna make it too. For people that say he can’t make it due to size, im not buying it. Muggsy Bogues/SpudWebb/Gary Grant/ Earl Boykins/ just to name a few. I understand they were a bit in the past but it’s about what skill you bring to a game. Trae has the skill and the intelligence to adjust to the nba game. I wouldn’t bet against him. 

 

Spud and Muggsy? You acting like he is a NBA midget. He is taller than CP3 and Lowry and the same height as Kemba, Dennis, Rondo, and Bledsoe.

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, GameTime said:

Spud and Muggsy? You acting like he is a NBA midget. He is taller than CP3 and Lowry and the same height as Kemba, Dennis, Rondo, and Bledsoe.

I know I was going extreme for those haters like @kg01 ! I think Trae is gonna be a stud. They eggspurts keep saying Trae and Bagley can’t play at the nba level because of better players...what better players? The stars? Sure..in the first year or two unless your name is Donovan Mitchell. Then you compete to the top of your position. Trae is a Nash type! 

[ATLien_]

On 5/26/2018 at 4:06 PM, Buzzard said:

Doncic has not been measured so there is no empirical data on him. Here is the definition of what the lane agility drills measure:

purpose: this is a test of speed, body control and the ability to change direction (agility).

https://www.mlfutsal.org/page/show/3403844-lane-agility-drill

In a nutshell: for short term burst and quick change of direction, Hayward was one of the slowest shooting guards or small forwards at his combine. Nothing else to argue about: he was/is slow but is still an all-star. I rest my case.

I'm going to agree with @EazyRoc I've watched 3 full games of Doncic two of then being final four games and this is what I observed. Doncic is a tough study,  so let me layout what I see. Donicic looks much faster when he gets rebound and goes, or when they pass it to him in the back court and he sprints. If he gets up a head of steam at 230 lbs his top speed is sufficient, and this is also where his good ball handling shines. He can change direction with that head of steam very fluidly, so at first I was fooled.

Then we get into the half court and his lack of explosion is clear. Out of the triple threat and from a stand still dribble he very below average by NBA standards. He does not explode well which leads to him taking so many tough step back and funky shots even in the Euro league.  This lack of explosion is also evident with his rebounding, pay special attention to second effort rebounding, he barely gets off the ground.  This will only get worse in the NBA against better athletes, and it contributes to his poor shooting percentage. This is why I like him better as a two or three playing off an Alpha as the secondary initiator. As primary initiator 100% he will struggle because he lacks the explosion to get the edge, but if someone else can collapse the D and let him catch with a few steps of steam he could be successful. This is how Ginobili played he would catch and attack right off the catch most of the time or run pick action with Duncan(Alpha). If this guy goes to a isolation heavy team he's screwed. He needs a Bud, Stevens, Golden State type system. 

Bottom line is to use a football analogy he's s long strider that lacks short area burst. This is why guys like bust wide receiver Heyward-Bey can have Olympic speed, but create no separation in the NFL. Your ability to break down and change direction and get back to your top speed matters more than your top speed. Dennis Schröder's top speed is far higher than Chris Paul's, but Paul is extremely quick and can go 10 different speeds and create deception. Dennis really only has two speeds fast and slow. Euro players usually struggle with this and this is where street ball can help.

[Buzzard]

13 minutes ago, ATLien_ said:

I'm going to agree with @EazyRoc I've watched 3 full games of Doncic two of then being final four games and this is what I observed. Doncic is a tough study,  so let me layout what I see. Donicic looks much faster when he gets rebound and goes, or when they pass it to him in the back court and he sprints. If he gets up a head of steam at 230 lbs his top speed is sufficient, and this is also where his good ball handling shines. He can change direction with that head of steam very fluidly, so at first I was fooled.

Then we get into the half court and his lack of explosion is clear. Out of the triple threat and from a stand still dribble he very below average by NBA standards. He does not explode well which leads to him taking so many tough step back and funky shots even in the Euro league.  This lack of explosion is also evident with his rebounding, pay special attention to second effort rebounding, he barely gets off the ground.  This will only get worse in the NBA against better athletes, and it contributes to his poor shooting percentage. This is why I like him better as a two or three playing off an Alpha as the secondary initiator. As primary initiator 100% he will struggle because he lacks the explosion to get the edge, but if someone else can collapse the D and let him catch with a few steps of steam he could be successful. This is how Ginobili played he would catch and attack right off the catch most of the time or run pick action with Duncan(Alpha). If this guy goes to a isolation heavy team he's screwed. He needs a Bud, Stevens, Golden State type system. 

Bottom line is to use a football analogy he's s long strider that lacks short area burst. This is why guys like bust wide receiver Heyward-Bey can have Olympic speed, but create no separation in the NFL. Your ability to break down and change direction and get back to your top speed matters more than your top speed. Dennis Schröder's top speed is far higher than Chris Paul's, but Paul is extremely quick and can go 10 different speeds and create deception. Dennis really only has two speeds fast and slow. Euro players usually struggle with this and this is where street ball can help.

Speed and agility are two of the easiest things to improve on provided you are not a clumsy oaf to begin with. Which is why I am not going to label Doncic a bust.

For those who think you cannot increase speed and agility, I have nothing for you. It just makes me shake my head in disbelief to think a knowledgeable fan actually believes a 19 year old kid is not going to get any faster and quicker as his body matures and grows. I cannot even comprehend that thought or where it comes from to be honest.

I am not going to label Doncic a bust or a sure fire hall of famer. But I think he will be a good to great player in this league for years to come. For those of you who think you know who is the sure fire hall of famer, I applaud you.

I think there could be maybe five future all stars in this draft; but I could not tell you if my life depended on it who will be in the hall of fame ( the superstar ).

[bleachkit]

6 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

I know I was going extreme for those haters like @kg01 ! I think Trae is gonna be a stud. They eggspurts keep saying Trae and Bagley can’t play at the nba level because of better players...what better players? The stars? Sure..in the first year or two unless your name is Donovan Mitchell. Then you compete to the top of your position. Trae is a Nash type! 

What about the turnovers though? He had some really rough games towards the end of the year.

[Jungle Jack]

Unless we move to 1 to get Anton, with Doncic he has a certain amount of control over where he goes.  Just like in the NFL draft and since time immoral, there is going to be a certain amount of sandbagging to be expected in hopes a targeted player drops.  Simply, it is not for nothing that many of the most forward thinking of GM's are tripping over themselves to give viability to Doncic being a legit prospect.

Like most mocks and many here I do guess the choice will come down to Bagley and JJJ.  Schlenk is in a pretty awesome position with 5 picks, a ton of cap space, and a number of tradable contracts.

[ATLien_]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

Speed and agility are two of the easiest things to improve on provided you are not a clumsy oaf to begin with. Which is why I am not going to label Doncic a bust.

For those who think you cannot increase speed and agility, I have nothing for you. It just makes me shake my head in disbelief to think a knowledgeable fan actually believes a 19 year old kid is not going to get any faster and quicker as his body matures and grows. I cannot even comprehend that thought or where it comes from to be honest.

I am not going to label Doncic a bust or a sure fire hall of famer. But I think he will be a good to great player in this league for years to come. For those of you who think you know who is the sure fire hall of famer, I applaud you.

I think there could be maybe five future all stars in this draft; but I could not tell you if my life depended on it who will be in the hall of fame ( the superstar ).

 I never said he would be a bust, I'm analysing his game and how he could be successful. Athleticism can be improved somewhat.  Korver improved his athletcism with P3, but he was still a liability getting killed in last night's game. Athletcism is needed on a sliding scale the better you shoot the less speed you need to get around people.  See Klay Thompson,  but noone is confusing Doncic shooting with Klays. Defensively athletcism will impact him.  I'm talking about how his game needs to change in the NBA to be successful. He's not going to be great imo playing like he did in the Euro league,  he's not going score efficiently with a steady diet one on one dribble moves against NBA athletes. I think it's much more likely he will improve his shooting than become an elite off the dribbles guy in the NBA. Even if he reaches Gordan Hayward status that's still not a number 1 on a championship team. Gordan couldn't get the Jazz over the hump, so he went to be a two in Boston. Donovan Mitchell lead them farther as a rookie. 

[kg01]

55 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

What about the turnovers though? He had some really rough games towards the end of the year.

The folks touting Young choose to ignore all that and the halfcourt shots and the fact that he was pretty bad once the 'book' was out on him and it was clear he was incapable of playing off the ball (which is a major part of what makes Curry special, btw).

[EazyRoc]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

Speed and agility are two of the easiest things to improve on provided you are not a clumsy oaf to begin with. Which is why I am not going to label Doncic a bust.

For those who think you cannot increase speed and agility, I have nothing for you. It just makes me shake my head in disbelief to think a knowledgeable fan actually believes a 19 year old kid is not going to get any faster and quicker as his body matures and grows. I cannot even comprehend that thought or where it comes from to be honest.

I am not going to label Doncic a bust or a sure fire hall of famer. But I think he will be a good to great player in this league for years to come. For those of you who think you know who is the sure fire hall of famer, I applaud you.

I think there could be maybe five future all stars in this draft; but I could not tell you if my life depended on it who will be in the hall of fame ( the superstar ).

I still don’t know a single player who came in the league and made significant strides in speed/agility unless they lost weight. 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

I still don’t know a single player who came in the league and made significant strides in speed/agility unless they lost weight. 

Hmm.  That's almost like seeing players who were terrible defenders in college become good defenders in the NBA.

[EazyRoc]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

The folks touting Young choose to ignore all that and the halfcourt shots and the fact that he was pretty bad once the 'book' was out on him and it was clear he was incapable of playing off the ball (which is a major part of what makes Curry special, btw).

Young has flaws in his game just like everyone else. He still had a 2:1 A/TO ratio and from what I see he has phenomenal vision. I chalk the turnovers up to extremely high usage. He’s incapable of playing off the ball at 19, but there’s absolutely no reason why he can’t become much better in this department. With his shooting and passing ability, he’s a real deal player in the pros.

[EazyRoc]

Just now, KB21 said:

Hmm.  That's almost like seeing players who were terrible defenders in college become good defenders in the NBA.

I think I could find more players who were bad defenders in college and became good defenders in the pros. Defense is about mentality, experience, and BBIQ all of which I think is easier to improve significantly than speed, agility, and explosiveness .

[Flight]

15 hours ago, kg01 said:

This is all true.

Too bad, IMHO, Young ain't Curry.

The thing about it is, he doesn’t have to be lol. He just has to be in a situation that allows him to be the best Trae Young he can be. And I’m fine if that’s here. His passing is elite and he can run an offense in a way we haven’t had a pg able to in lord knows how many years.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, EazyRoc said:

Young has flaws in his game just like everyone else. He still had a 2:1 A/TO ratio and from what I see he has phenomenal vision. I chalk the turnovers up to extremely high usage. He’s incapable of playing off the ball at 19, but there’s absolutely no reason why he can’t become much better in this department. With his shooting and passing ability, he’s a real deal player in the pros.

Hey, I won't fight you on your opinion.  We simply disagree.

To me, he's a guy who can only play 1 way and needs too many things to go juuust right in order for him to succeed.  He's absolutely a boom or bust prospect. 

I'd prefer to go with a guy with great potential but who could athletically do or be an asset even if he doesn't hit his ceiling.