WILL THIS HAWK TEAM PLAY SOME DEFENSE? YES OR NO....

[Peoriabird]

42 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think the biggest difference between what some of you believe and what I believe is the difference between fairy tales and reality.  Some of you believe that everything the Hawks have done over the past year will all be unicorns and rainbows, and I live in the reality that teams that do what the Hawks have done in the past year tend to stay down for a long time.

Take Trae Young for example.  He's a good pick.  I had him as the #3 player on my board.  The thing with me is, I realize that 99% of rookies do not make an impact on winning games as rookies.  Trae is going to be a strong player.  It just will not be during his rookie season, nor likely in his second season either.

I like Kevin Huerter.  I had him as the #14 player on my board.  He's going to be a good player in the NBA.  He will not be good as a rookie though.  These are two players who the Hawks will be counting on heavily this year.  Kevin Huerter as a rookie, while he will not be a "winning" player, he will still be an upgrade to a second year Tyler Dorsey in the rotation.  Because he will be better than Tyler Dorsey, who I think is a G-League level player, he will be a key member in the rotation as a rookie.  If Dorsey is playing a lot of minutes, then the team is clearly tanking.

For comparison, the Hawks currently have 5 players on the entire roster who have a positive WAR projection for 2018-2019.  The Brooklyn Nets currently have 11 players who have a positive WAR projection for 2018-2019.

Folks, you can pump sunshine and rainbows all you want to and it isn't going to change the fact that this is going to be a horrendous basketball team in 2018-2019.  

Understood but you take it much further than the above...You claim that it is Schlenk's desire to lose games on purpose and that he has hired Pierce specifically to carry out his agenda.  You also claim that Piece is a poor coach and this is why he was chosen.  He and the staff will just throw the youngest most inexperienced players on to the court together, make them play fast and watch them fail.  If Pierce doesn't follow the script and starts playing vet players on the team and they start to win, Schlenk will step in and take care of the problem.  And by the way, Bud played Dorsey a lot down the stretch so are you finally admitting that Bud was a part of the tank last year?

[thecampster]

59 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think the biggest difference between what some of you believe and what I believe is the difference between fairy tales and reality.  Some of you believe that everything the Hawks have done over the past year will all be unicorns and rainbows, and I live in the reality that teams that do what the Hawks have done in the past year tend to stay down for a long time.

Take Trae Young for example.  He's a good pick.  I had him as the #3 player on my board.  The thing with me is, I realize that 99% of rookies do not make an impact on winning games as rookies.  Trae is going to be a strong player.  It just will not be during his rookie season, nor likely in his second season either.

I like Kevin Huerter.  I had him as the #14 player on my board.  He's going to be a good player in the NBA.  He will not be good as a rookie though.  These are two players who the Hawks will be counting on heavily this year.  Kevin Huerter as a rookie, while he will not be a "winning" player, he will still be an upgrade to a second year Tyler Dorsey in the rotation.  Because he will be better than Tyler Dorsey, who I think is a G-League level player, he will be a key member in the rotation as a rookie.  If Dorsey is playing a lot of minutes, then the team is clearly tanking.

For comparison, the Hawks currently have 5 players on the entire roster who have a positive WAR projection for 2018-2019.  The Brooklyn Nets currently have 11 players who have a positive WAR projection for 2018-2019.

Folks, you can pump sunshine and rainbows all you want to and it isn't going to change the fact that this is going to be a horrendous basketball team in 2018-2019.  

You see, this is what I see interesting about you and I. You know that I had Trae rated as the #1 positive impact player and who I would have chosen (though I suggested previously I would have done exactly what Schlenk did in trading down to get him). We also agreed on Huerter who I thought was going 12-15 before he hurt his hand.  But then we get to Dorsey who I see as a future 6th man type of player. I see Dorsey as having gotten bad coaching in his life, which is why he's been working on breaking bad habits on the court and working on his body (adding good weight/toning).  I can't see how you see him as a G-Leaguer.  Your opinions (though right more often than not and usually mirror mine) seem to be much more extreme...either feast or famine.  Dorsey's net negative per 100 possessions last year was -2.3.  Which was acceptable for a 2nd round rookie and significantly better than a G-Leaguer.

As far as sunshine and rainbows, Nobody is saying NBA finals but we are saying...better and I've laid that out.  Specifically, better defensively at 3 rotational positions, better 3 point shooting overall and a player with selfish tendencies (some reported distractions) gone. The team is not worse based solely on Collins, Dorsey, Bembry, Prince all being one year older and more experienced.  The fact that White, Cleveland, Cavanaugh, Magette and the other G-Leaguers aren't getting significant minutes makes us better.  Our draft picks this year > G-League promotions from last year.

 

 

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Understood but you take it much further than the above...You claim that it is Schlenk's desire to lose games on purpose and that he has hired Pierce specifically to carry out his agenda.  You also claim that Piece is a poor coach and this is why he was chosen.  He and the staff will just throw the youngest most inexperienced players on to the court together, make them play fast and watch them fail.  If Pierce doesn't follow the script and starts playing vet players on the team and they start to win, Schlenk will step in and take care of the problem.  And by the way, Bud played Dorsey a lot down the stretch so are you finally admitting that Bud was a part of the tank last year?

It should be very apparent that Schlenk’s goal is to lose to gain draft pick position.  

Who else was Bud given to play besides Dorsey late in the year?   Remember, they faked an injury with Bazemore because he was playing too well.  

[thecampster]

Here is what is better than last year.

Isaiah Taylor, Andrew White III, Tyler Cavanaugh, Damion Lee, Josh Magette, Jaylen Morris, Antonius Cleveland, Jeremy Evans and Nicolas Brussino go a combined 2,669 minutes last year.  That's 74 - 36 minute ballgames worth of minutes for a number of players who will mostly not get any minutes in the league next year.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

Here is what is better than last year.

Isaiah Taylor, Andrew White III, Tyler Cavanaugh, Damion Lee, Josh Magette, Jaylen Morris, Antonius Cleveland, Jeremy Evans and Nicolas Brussino go a combined 2,669 minutes last year.  That's 74 - 36 minute ballgames worth of minutes for a number of players who will mostly not get any minutes in the league next year.

More math for you and your Dorsey is a G-Leaguer.  There are a total of 19,680 player minutes to distribute in a season (48x5x82).  13.56% of those minutes went to actual G-League players.  1 in every 8 minutes went to a G-League player last year.  Yes, this year's roster is better.

When you also include that Delaney got another 6% of the team minutes, Babbitt got 3%, you have to start wondering how we won 24 games at all.

[Peoriabird]

8 hours ago, KB21 said:

It should be very apparent that Schlenk’s goal is to lose to gain draft pick position.  

Who else was Bud given to play besides Dorsey late in the year?   Remember, they faked an injury with Bazemore because he was playing too well.  

Dorsey started playing ahead of Belinelli at one point in February.  Dorsey played 12.5 minutes per game in January.  Belinelli didn't get bought out until Feb. 8th.  Baze didn't go on the DL until March 11th.  So It was Bud's choice to play Dorsey I was not out of necessity.

[Gray Mule]

KB21:  Yep.  As I said, we both believe that our young lads are green as grass and that they must grow to be good NBA players.  Rainbows and roses are in my view.  I see all three growing fast this season.  Much like last year's rookies.  By season's end, I hope and expect them to be pretty good and winning some games because of their play.  They, and the Hawks will struggle early in the season.

KB21:  You believe that these young men will be good.  The difference, you think that their growth will be much slower.  You believe it will be in year three before they really hit their stride. 

Wouldn't it be wonderful (speaking of unicorns) that we are both correct.  These young men become good NBA players by the end of this season, then become great, all star players by year three.  I'll go along with that!

[Peoriabird]

55 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

KB21:  Yep.  As I said, we both believe that our young lads are green as grass and that they must grow to be good NBA players.  Rainbows and roses are in my view.  I see all three growing fast this season.  Much like last year's rookies.  By season's end, I hope and expect them to be pretty good and winning some games because of their play.  They, and the Hawks will struggle early in the season.

KB21:  You believe that these young men will be good.  The difference, you think that their growth will be much slower.  You believe it will be in year three before they really hit their stride. 

Wouldn't it be wonderful (speaking of unicorns) that we are both correct.  These young men become good NBA players by the end of this season, then become great, all star players by year three.  I'll go along with that!

He also believes that those 3 players will determine wins and loses! He also believes that those 3 players will be thrown out on the floor for extended minutes regardless of whether or not they perform as the vet players on the team watch from the bench.

[Gray Mule]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

He also believes that those 3 players will determine wins and loses! He also believes that those 3 players will be thrown out on the floor for extended minutes regardless of whether or not they perform as the vet players on the team watch from the bench.

Sink or swim?  If this indeed happens, then these young lads will be forced to learn and grow or fade away.  Youthful errors will cost the Hawks a lot of games early.  However, they will grow and learn.  Count on it.

[Buzzard]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

He also believes that those 3 players will determine wins and loses! He also believes that those 3 players will be thrown out on the floor for extended minutes regardless of whether or not they perform as the vet players on the team watch from the bench.

Some do not want to believe how good Prince and Collins will be this year. If they get any offensive help at all from Lin, Trae, Bazemore, Dorsey and defensive help from Anderson, Dedmon, Len, and Plumlee we are going to be somewhere around 10th in the East. Which I think will put us around 10th in the draft.

Huerter and Spellman are wild cards that could make us better; but they will not be allowed to make us worse.

[AHF]

Fwiw, I don’t think we will be he’ll bent on losing games like last year but I agree with KB we will be getting the young guys plenty of burn which will naturally lose us more games than it wins us.

[thecampster]

10 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Some do not want to believe how good Prince and Collins will be this year. If they get any offensive help at all from Lin, Trae, Bazemore, Dorsey and defensive help from Anderson, Dedmon, Len, and Plumlee we are going to be somewhere around 10th in the East. Which I think will put us around 10th in the draft.

Huerter and Spellman are wild cards that could make us better; but they will not be allowed to make us worse.

You know this wouldn't satisfy some. The tanking mindset is #1 overall or bust. There are some who would be upset at the progress that would be a lower draft pick.

[Peoriabird]

15 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Some do not want to believe how good Prince and Collins will be this year. If they get any offensive help at all from Lin, Trae, Bazemore, Dorsey and defensive help from Anderson, Dedmon, Len, and Plumlee we are going to be somewhere around 10th in the East. Which I think will put us around 10th in the draft.

Huerter and Spellman are wild cards that could make us better; but they will not be allowed to make us worse.

Exactly! Collins was probably better and more accomplished than both Huerter and Spellman coming into the league but yet couldn't earn playing time over Luke Babbitt at the beginning of last season but somehow both will surpass Collin's rookie usage rate this season?  Makes no sense!

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Fwiw, I don’t think we will be he’ll bent on losing games like last year but I agree with KB we will be getting the young guys plenty of burn which will naturally lose us more games than it wins us.

I think you are hoping for that. I don't think Pierce or Travis is looking for that. We are not paying Anderson, Lin, and Len to be bystanders. I think they want them to play and contribute. It would not surprise me one bit if Anderson turns out to be our 1st or 2nd most used player off the bench due to his bulldog defensive mentality. No one plays a Anderson type player to lose.

Trae is the rookie who will get the most burn for obvious reasons. Huerter is going to have a hard time displacing Baze; even more so if we are showcasing him for a future trade. Spellman may get some minor burn simply because he is the only true PF we have right now; though we could go small with Anderson and Prince at the 3 and 4.

Those that want one more high lotto pick want us to play Trae, Huerter, and Spellman as many minutes as possible. Those who want to see this team develop with veteran leadership mixed in on the floor; see it another way.

[Buzzard]

49 minutes ago, thecampster said:

You know this wouldn't satisfy some. The tanking mindset is #1 overall or bust. There are some who would be upset at the progress that would be a lower draft pick.

I am not feeling the major minutes from jump street for Huerter and Spellman. Trae is the most NBA ready rookie and I can live and die with him; but I fully expect major contributions from the rest of our team: Lin, Bazemore, Anderson, Dedmon, Len, Dorsey, and Plumlee. I keep forgetting about Bembry also. Carter is our resident player coach, 5 minutes a game if that.

Just pencil in Prince and Collins as our best two players for now and lets roll with it.

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I am not feeling the major minutes from jump street for Huerter and Spellman. Trae is the most NBA ready rookie and I can live and die with him; but I fully expect major contributions from the rest of our team: Lin, Bazemore, Anderson, Dedmon, Len, Dorsey, and Plumlee. I keep forgetting about Bembry also. Carter is our resident player coach, 5 minutes a game if that.

Just pencil in Prince and Collins as our best two players for now and lets roll with it.

I don't disagree with this statement, but the fact that those two are the Hawks best players at their current stage of development, it really shows you why this team is going to be very bad this year.  That's not to disparage those players, but they should be in a situation where there are veterans on the team that are currently better than they are as both need continued development before they are ready to be winning caliber players.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I don't disagree with this statement, but the fact that those two are the Hawks best players at their current stage of development, it really shows you why this team is going to be very bad this year.  That's not to disparage those players, but they should be in a situation where there are veterans on the team that are currently better than they are as both need continued development before they are ready to be winning caliber players.

Total ignored the gist of the discussion to dump on the team but yet some think that you are now positive? lol at @AHF

[turnermx]

I don't disagree with this statement, but the fact that those two are the Hawks best players at their current stage of development, it really shows you why this team is going to be very bad this year.  That's not to disparage those players, but they should be in a situation where there are veterans on the team that are currently better than they are as both need continued development before they are ready to be winning caliber players.

 

You’re completely missing the point others have made here. These players, while in need of development are already at a skill level right now which far exceeds that of the players the team relied on last year. The team also will not depend on them to carry the bulk of the minutes at their respective positions excluding the possibility of an injury to a starter with only the possible exception of Trae.

 

 

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[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Total ignored the gist of the discussion to dump on the team but yet some think that you are now positive? lol at @AHF

The team is bad.  It's not going to get markedly better anytime soon.  This is what happens when you decide to build with inexperienced players.  

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The team is bad.  It's not going to get markedly better anytime soon.  This is what happens when you decide to build with inexperienced players.  

Doubling down I see...guess you just can't help it! lol!  Maybe that's your way of deflecting.